Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[TCBinaflash]

I can't an won't argue anything your saying because I think you are right. Except in the legal argument of fair compensation it's hard to separate those who feel they were sold a car fraudulently regardless of when they bought it.

How do you compensate an environmentally concerned owner in a 2009 JSW that feels duped by VW?

It's a mess because it's not just how much you spent and when you spent it. Or how much or how little you used the car. It's a public trust/ consumer fraud issue as well.

 

[autdi]

How do you compensate an environmentally concerned owner in a 2009 JSW that feels duped by VW?

Pay them what the EPA thinks NOx is worth. $70 for 375k miles of output. You can then do with it what you want, donate to the cause of your choice, dinner, whatever.

 

[redbarron55]

All it takes is money?
Do they have access to enough?

 

[Gonehuckin]

Those with 4+ year old TDI's with 100K miles imo should not expect significant compensation beyond norm for their vehicles. Those with 3 year old +/- cars with less than 50k miles should expect to be fairly compensated and given the opportunity to divest themselves of their vehicles if so inclined. Nobody got hurt more than those who had bought a 2015-2016 TDI prior to this fiasco....and those with older depreciated TDI's shouldn't disparage these newer owners intentions (not directed at you TCBinaflash)

This is beyond idiotic. So you're saying that you arbitrarily put the life expectancy of these vehicles at 4 yrs and 100k miles. I certainly wouldn't have bought my JSW if I were told it would become worthless when you say it is.

 

[tvmaster]

well well well

"Mitsubishi admits cheating fuel efficiency tests"

http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/20/11466320/mitsubishi-cheated-fuel-efficiency-tests

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/mitsubishi-mileage-nissan-1.3544311

fascinating, eh? these companies just can't help themselves. couple this with Ford stating they have no interest trying to make an electric car go as far as a Tesla, and you can see why people drop $1k on a two-year murky promise.
The auto industry was supposed to give me a flying car by now.....where the hell is that?

 

[TCBinaflash]

Pay them what the EPA thinks NOx is worth. $70 for 375k miles of output. You can then do with it what you want, donate to the cause of your choice, dinner, whatever.

They will do that regardless. Doesn't compensate them (in their opinion- not mine) for the fraud and false advertising.

I'm just making the general point that there are too many owners extremely opposed to any fix solution or buying another VW that buybacks must be involved for every gen vehicle.

 

[Gonehuckin]

Pay them what the EPA thinks NOx is worth. $70 for 375k miles of output. You can then do with it what you want, donate to the cause of your choice, dinner, whatever.

Maybe they can pay that to the EPA but that doesn't solve the liquidity and market value decrease issues for the owner.

 

[Armourbl]

More in the news on the scandal.
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/...na-attorney-general-sues-volkswagen-audi.html

Arizona attorney general sues Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche over diesel emissions

Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich is suing German automakers Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche arguing they falsely advertised ‘clean diesel,’ low-emissions cars.

Brnovich filed a consumer fraud lawsuit against the German trio in Maricopa Superior Court.

The state attorney general says more than 4,000 Arizonans bought ‘clean-diesel’ vehicles from Volkswagen, Porshe and Audi.

Volkswagen got in trouble with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency last year admitting it installed special software to help diesel cars pass emissions tests. The automaker’s CEO at the time resigned.

Volkswagen owns Audi and has a controlling stake in Porsche. Porsche Cayenne and various Audi and VW diesel models have been cited by the EPA for emissions violations, according to Car & Driver.

“This appears to be one of the largest cases of false advertising we have ever seen and Arizona will be at the forefront of a nationwide effort to hold Volkswagen financially accountable,” said Attorney General Mark Brnovich of his lawsuit.

A Volkswagen spokesperson said the company does not comment on specific lawsuits.

"Volkswagen continues to work cooperatively with EPA and CARB to resolve these issues as quickly as possible. We are committed to regaining the trust of our customers and dealers and will continue to cooperate with all relevant government agencies," the company said in a statement.

 

[kitarkus]

I can't an won't argue anything your saying because I think you are right. Except in the legal argument of fair compensation it's hard to separate those who feel they were sold a car fraudulently regardless of when they bought it.

How do you compensate an environmentally concerned owner in a 2009 JSW that feels duped by VW?

It's a mess because it's not just how much you spent and when you spent it. Or how much or how little you used the car. It's a public trust/ consumer fraud issue as well.

You are absolutely correct. That said, I was making an attempt to exhibit that it isn't simply opportunism as some suspect. I personally don't feel that a 2009 TDI owner with 167,000 miles deserves to have a buy back at MSRP. I'm not an opportunist. To your point...it certainly could be argued that all TDI owners were duped into their purchases and deserve a full buy back. I simply want to get out of this with my teeth intact.

 

[kitarkus]

This is beyond idiotic. So you're saying that you arbitrarily put the life expectancy of these vehicles at 4 yrs and 100k miles. I certainly wouldn't have bought my JSW if I were told it would become worthless when you say it is.

Nope. I'm saying that TDI'ers have enjoyed varying degrees of use from these vehicles. Someone who purchased in August of 2015 and has 15K on the car is likely due to be compensated to a higher degree than someone who has a 2009 TDI with 150,000 miles. If you can't agree to this....perhaps you are the opportunist. If you cannot understand this....please learn to read.

 

[TDINJ]

There are other sensibly motivated TDI'ers. Some want a buy back of their late model TDI's that they spent nearly $30K on within the last 3 years....because they didn't intend to drive them forever, because the TDI's have seriously depreciated, because the used market for TDI's have a questionable future, and because the emissions control equipment have questionable durability. I am one of these. I don't expect to get my $30K back. The inconvenience of this debacle makes it silly to suggest that this is opportunistic.

Those with 4+ year old TDI's with 100K miles imo should not expect significant compensation beyond norm for their vehicles. Those with 3 year old +/- cars with less than 50k miles should expect to be fairly compensated and given the opportunity to divest themselves of their vehicles if so inclined. Nobody got hurt more than those who had bought a 2015-2016 TDI prior to this fiasco....and those with older depreciated TDI's shouldn't disparage these newer owners intentions (not directed at you TCBinaflash)

Not that it matters much in the grand scheme of this whole cluster phuque, but if there's a buyback and they base part of it on mileage, I'm going to come unglued.
Like many, I can't afford to park my vehicle and let it sit without putting miles on it. I bought it new, it's one owner is me, and I've put over 71K miles on it ('14 Passat). I have to drive it, it's the only car I have.
Again, my coming unglued at any settlement doesn't much matter to VW, I'll just be pissed if I get screwed largely because of miles. The longer they have dragged lazy ass on this, the more I (we) have to drive to/from work, etc.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Email from my Class Action Suit Attorney - Hilliard - Today

Mr. Xxxxxxx, The latest update is that Judge Breyer in the federal lawsuit gave VW one additional month to present a concrete plan to fix the vehicles. The judge mentioned that the plan should include all possible remedies, which could include a fix or a buyback. The judge also required a specific timeline for the remedy process. VW's deadline is April 21, 2016 to present the concrete plan. We do not know any more specifics at this time. Mr. Hilliard, your lawyer, will remain in constant communication with VW's attorneys and with VW's plan administrator, Ken Feinberg. Thank you. We will continue to keep you updated as things transpire. Sincerely, Elsa Chavez

 

[mjLyco]

Nope. I'm saying that TDI'ers have enjoyed varying degrees of use from these vehicles. Someone who purchased in August of 2015 and has 15K on the car is likely due to be compensated to a higher degree than someone who has a 2009 TDI with 150,000 miles. If you can't agree to this....perhaps you are the opportunist. If you cannot understand this....please learn to read.

OMG i'm so sick of that argument. So if someone sold you lead paint instead of non-lead paint and you found out 5 years later, would you say, "well I got 5 years out of it and in some ways lead paint is better." If you were sold Alaskan King salmon and found out later it was fluke dyed pink would you say "well I got nutritional value out of it."

Utility of a fraudulent purchase does not absolve culpability.

The issue for many is that they were sold a false bill of goods. Refund my purchase.

 

[kitarkus]

OMG i'm so sick of that argument. So if someone sold you lead paint instead of non-lead paint and you found out 5 years later, would you say, "well I got 5 years out of it and in some ways lead paint is better." If you were sold Alaskan King salmon and found out later it was fluke dyed pink would you say "well I got nutritional value out of it."
Utility of a fraudulent purchase does not absolve culpability.
The issue for many is that they were sold a false bill of goods. Refund my purchase.

IMO unless the FTC suit prompts VW to rescind all purchases...I am doubtful that Ken Feinberg will offer a full buy back to each and every TDI owner. VW would likely make an attempt to minimize the buy backs via compensation or other means. A menu of options is likely to be offered and this menu imo would vary dependent upon various factors (potential factors could be year, mileage etc).

We do not disagree as much as you are implying. I am, however, dubious that at this potential "settlement offer" early stage prior to any litigation...that VW would propose an across the board buy back at purchase price. I'd prefer that VW be forced to do this....but realistically I would be quite surprised to see it happen. Interestingly...I think it would be the most prudent move on VW's part....but they have done nothing which I would consider prudent thus far....so I must base my assumptions on their historical actions.

Given that I wish to rid myself of the TDI....I am resigned to an understanding that I will not be overjoyed with the "offer" (if any). I understand others would not agree....but I'll take a financial hit on this deal just to rid myself of VW....while still maintaining some glimmer of hope that I won't have to.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

I got the feeling some will be happy with the announcement tomorrow, others not. There have been so many rumors floating around we just don't know what will happen. VW for sure dug themselves a very deep hole this much we can agree.

The judge will either throw more dirt on top and bury them even deeper or accept their offers to plant some seeds of trees here or there. So many jobs at risk, dealers, inventory, leftover 2015s (must be some sweet deals there), 2016s stuck in limbo land, factories in idle mode, 600,000 cars that need fixing, even more customers fleeing to competition, etc.

The announcement tomorrow is huge for VWs future. All up to the judge. Or he gives them more time and the thread goes past 2000 pages. Looking like years on the calendar now, ironic 1980s 1990s some good decades. Technology messed up VW they were better off in the 80s when things didn't run off ECMs and times were simpler.

Jeta

ya ... wonder where are all the (new) 2015 TDIs

I tire kick dealers on the net for their TDIs Mostly Golf 2015 ... and they want an arm and a foot for 'em

okie

 

[kitarkus]

VW to hike dieselgate provisions to double digit billion amount: sources

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-provisions-scandal-idUSKCN0XH1UZ

Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) will raise its provisions to pay for an emissions cheating scandal to a double digit billion euros amount, from 6.7 billion ($7.6 billion) euros at present, two people familiar with the matter said on Wednesday.

Regulators and prosecutors around the world are investigating Volkswagen after it admitted installing software in its cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests.

"The 6.7 billion euros will be substantially changed. For the full year it will be a double-digit billion amount," one the people, who declined to be named, said on Wednesday.

 

[velostuf]

Nope. I'm saying that TDI'ers have enjoyed varying degrees of use from these vehicles. Someone who purchased in August of 2015 and has 15K on the car is likely due to be compensated to a higher degree than someone who has a 2009 TDI with 150,000 miles. If you can't agree to this....perhaps you are the opportunist. If you cannot understand this....please learn to read.

Please- nobody get too wound up from this, I'm just trying to make an interesting point- It could sort-of be argued that the more miles driven by a not "clean" TDI, the more loss, or damage suffered (by way of pollution). In that regard, maybe the buyback price differential for owners of higher mileage and lower mileage TDIs shouldn't be so great?

The problem with my argument is that *I*, the owner didn't suffer those damages, rather the environment did, so why should VW compensate me for that?

How about this- With 100k miles worth of polluting, I feel twice as bad as the owners of TDIs with 50k miles... (wink face)

 

[oilhammer]

Not that it matters much in the grand scheme of this whole cluster phuque, but if there's a buyback and they base part of it on mileage, I'm going to come unglued.
Like many, I can't afford to park my vehicle and let it sit without putting miles on it. I bought it new, it's one owner is me, and I've put over 71K miles on it ('14 Passat). I have to drive it, it's the only car I have.
Again, my coming unglued at any settlement doesn't much matter to VW, I'll just be pissed if I get screwed largely because of miles.

How about just keep driving it and not be concerned about it?

 

[mjLyco]

IMO unless the FTC suit prompts VW to rescind all purchases...I am doubtful that Ken Feinberg will offer a full buy back to each and every TDI owner. VW would likely make an attempt to minimize the buy backs via compensation or other means. A menu of options is likely to be offered and this menu imo would vary dependent upon various factors (potential factors could be year, mileage etc).
We do not disagree as much as you are implying. I am, however, dubious that at this potential "settlement offer" early stage prior to any litigation...that VW would propose an across the board buy back at purchase price. I'd prefer that VW be forced to do this....but realistically I would be quite surprised to see it happen.
Given that I wish to rid myself of the TDI....I am resigned to an understanding that I will not be overjoyed with the "offer" (if any).

I 100% agree they will not offer a full buyback. I think the only way they would is if the FTC makes them or you file your own suit. I'm aware that VW's argument will be we got utility out of the vehicle, and we could always get it partially fixed; but they can kick rocks. If I'm not offered my money back I'll just go ahead and sue. My dad will be doing the same FWIW.

 

[Jeta Life]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/mitsubishi-mileage-nissan-1.3544311

fascinating, eh? these companies just can't help themselves. couple this with Ford stating they have no interest trying to make an electric car go as far as a Tesla, and you can see why people drop $1k on a two-year murky promise.
The auto industry was supposed to give me a flying car by now.....where the hell is that?

Ford does things different than GM.
I read Ford produces some Focus cars in Germany.
Bob Lutz wants the diesel market all to GMs greedy self.

 

[oilhammer]

Ford does things different than GM.
I read Ford produces some Focus cars in Germany.
Bob Lutz wants the diesel market all to GMs greedy self.

Ford has been building Focuses in Germany since the Focus has existed. None of the ones sold here come from there, however. Ours mostly come from Mexico. Same as quite a few Ford, GM, and Fiat-Chrysler products sold here.

 

[kitarkus]

How about just keep driving it and not be concerned about it?

Respectfully....it is easy for you to say this when you didn't pay retail dealer pricing for a 2014 TDI. You buy them used to keep/hold or re-sell and can do the repairs yourself. He isn't in the same position as you...financially or otherwise as it relates to his car.

 

[velostuf]

Ford has been building Focuses in Germany since the Focus has existed. None of the ones sold here come from there, however. Ours mostly come from Mexico. Same as quite a few Ford, GM, and Fiat-Chrysler products sold here.

Shouldn't it be "Foci"?

 

[nucklehead]

well well well

"Mitsubishi admits cheating fuel efficiency tests"

http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/20/11466320/mitsubishi-cheated-fuel-efficiency-tests

One of the cars I was interested in when I was shopping for them was the Nissan Altima 4 cyl. Nissan claims 38mpg IIRC - Fuelly.com real world users record the Altima 2.5L getting no better than 28-30mpg. With mileage like that I'd rather have a Mustang V6 - very similar fuel mileage and 300hp = much more fun to drive. My only regret in buying the Jetta is VW's tripping over their own d*ck - the bastards!!!

Seems likely I'll be shopping for a car one more time - and I hate car shopping. Actually its the sales people I hate dealing with. I bought my car through the Costco Auto program which made it easier - still had to tell the sales guy to STFU a couple of times - same with the finance officer who was trying mightily to sell me an after market warranty. At least she got the idea after a couple of interrupted spiels.

Enjoy the day ya'll. I'm heading out for a round of golf - going to be 80* here today! Feels like summer.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Nope. I'm saying that TDI'ers have enjoyed varying degrees of use from these vehicles. Someone who purchased in August of 2015 and has 15K on the car is likely due to be compensated to a higher degree than someone who has a 2009 TDI with 150,000 miles. If you can't agree to this....perhaps you are the opportunist. If you cannot understand this....please learn to read.

kit

.... carry that to a another level...

.... bought it July 2015 ... now has ~ 1,988 miles.

.... having no darn idea what will happen .. prefer no fix ... after all the details are known ... always have the option to sell it

 

[oilhammer]

Respectfully....it is easy for you to say this when you didn't pay retail dealer pricing for a 2014 TDI. You buy them used to keep/hold or re-sell and can do the repairs yourself. He isn't in the same position as you...financially or otherwise as it relates to his car.

So it is even MORE of an issue to keep and drive his car then. Because that is how you get your money's worth out of something.

Also, you wrongly assume I have never bought anything new.

I paid $11,860 for my 1991 Jetta. Still have it.

I paid $27,400 for my 2004 Passat. Still have it.

I got my money's worth on both, but I will continue to get even more out of them.

I am getting ready to lay out over 40 grand for a new van, too, just in case you were wondering. And yes, it will be a diesel.

 

[kitarkus]

European fix for VW diesels complies with law, but real-world emissions still too hig

IMO it will be hard for CARB/EPA to sign off on a "fix" when VW cannot even come close to meeting the EU standard with their approved European fix.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...h-law-but-real-world-emissions-still-too-high


Now, the Swedish technology newspaper Ny Technik has published an interview with Per Öhlund, investigator at the Swedish Transport Agency, that sheds some light on the current state of affairs.

As translated by a helpful reader, Öhlund explains that the German magazine Auto Motor und Sport tested a modified Volkswagen Amarok pickup truck and found it to emit the same amount of nitrogen oxides in road use as it had before the modifications.

Volkswagen Amarok Canyon conceptVolkswagen Amarok Canyon concept
The Amarok with updated software performed identically to an unmodified version, used slightly more diesel fuel than the comparison vehicle, and continued to emit 1.5 grams of nitrogen oxides per kilometer—far above the Euro 5 emission limit of 0.18 g/km.

The German regulatory agency KBA (Kraftfahrt Bundes-AMT) approved VW's proposed modifications, which apparently brought the Amarok into compliance with emission tests performed under the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC) protocols.

 

[LogicBomb]

So it is even MORE of an issue to keep and drive his car then. Because that is how you get your money's worth out of something.
Also, you wrongly assume I have never bought anything new.
I paid $11,860 for my 1991 Jetta. Still have it.
I paid $27,400 for my 2004 Passat. Still have it.
I got my money's worth on both, but I will continue to get even more out of them.
I am getting ready to lay out over 40 grand for a new van, too, just in case you were wondering. And yes, it will be a diesel.

Sprinter or Transit?

 

[kitarkus]

So it is even MORE of an issue to keep and drive his car then. Because that is how you get your money's worth out of something.
Also, you wrongly assume I have never bought anything new.
I paid $11,860 for my 1991 Jetta. Still have it.
I paid $27,400 for my 2004 Passat. Still have it.
I got my money's worth on both, but I will continue to get even more out of them.
I am getting ready to lay out over 40 grand for a new van, too, just in case you were wondering. And yes, it will be a diesel.

Again...respectfully...not all car consumers desire to drive a car forever. I had intended to keep this car for 3 years. It may not be the most financially beneficial decision....but it is my choice as to whether I would prefer to drive a late model car. I kept my last car for 12 years....and decided that I do not wish to do this again with my JSW. I am not alone. It is not helpful to tell folks to simply drive more and worry less. I understand your buy and hold mantra and respect it....but not everyone wishes to do the same.

 

[oilhammer]

Sprinter or Transit?

Or Promaster???

Promaster is out, because it turns out Fiat does not sell one here that is a passenger van, only a cargo van with windows, and I'd need to have a 3rd party company refit the inside, which I was not thrilled about.

So it is down to the Transit or the Sprinter. I am leaning more towards the Sprinter at this point, as I can get a "lesser" model one that will fit our needs for less money. The Transit would require an extra ~$6k of optional configuring just to get it to where I want.

And since I am still looking at nearly 10 grand worth of upfitting for the wheelchair lift and dual anchor points, I need to keep the purchase price within reason. But this will be a "forever" van, and it will need to serve us until both my boys have passed away, and that may be 20 years yet.