Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

Status
Not open for further replies.

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
Somewhat depends on the exposure in the rest of the world. The 500k in the US is a small fraction of the 11M worldwide. Unless the rest are looking more like a meh settlement, until the worldwide cost is known, debt is going to be very expensive, though not as bad as the bridge loan they have now.
The bulk of the other countries go by the Euro 'x' (whatever the exact standard name is)...for which a "fix" was already agreed to (though it has been halted). That and lets be honest...most of the politicians and regulators in those countries just don't give a $h1t about this. Couple to that fact these countries seem to have weak consumer protection laws...VW just doesn't have much to worry about there.

For the purposes of booking losses for CY 15 In Euro 'x' countries...I would imagine that the "fix" cost and projected penalties/fines is what they'll use for those countries.

While they'll still have some unresolved issues (i.e. South Korea)...countries like that are just not going to result in a huge burden...at least not billions of dollars worth. They can throw out a WAG (Wild A55 Guess) and move on.

For them to wrap up and post a 2015 loss number that's even in the ballpark...they have to resolve the U.S. Their exposure could be anywhere from (hypothetical) $5B to $50B. Unless they come up with some kind of agreement with U.S. regulators in the next ~16 days...there's just no way that they could post even a WAG for a total loss the end of April.

So yes...they "only" sold 600,000 cars in the U.S...and percentage wise...it's a small percentage of total TDI sales...but it's our legal system (possible fines, damages to consumers, etc.) that makes them so significant.
 
Last edited:

Chris

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2000
Location
Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, USA
While on this subject - are chains in general any better than belts on other makes of vehicles? Some of my friends rant and rave because they don't need to change the belt, but I still don't trust them. And wouldn't they need to be lubed up every so often?
They are typically continually lubricated by the engine oil (and tensioned with oil pump pressure).
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
They are typically continually lubricated by the engine oil (and tensioned with oil pump pressure).
Aha, so they actually run more internal to the engine, than external, protected by a plastic cover as with timing belts?
 

GSwag

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Location
Georgia
TDI
2013 Passat
Our cars' rotors are inexpensive. They should be replaced instead of resurfaced.
It's not just a VW thing either. I've owned BMWs since the 80s and it was the same thing with all of them. Probably all European manufacturers. Might even be true for domestic cars now but I haven't driven one or wrenched on one for decades now so I can't even speculate.
This will be overkill to most but i have been surprised at how bad the rotors were when new. My friend owns a nice garage and I work on our stuff there. The last time I bought new rotors, I resurfaced them prior to installation and couldn't believe how many valleys and peaks a new rotor has. I went ahead and resurfaced the new one and the brakes were so nice afterwards. I coul definitely tell the difference in new rotors that had and had not been resurfaced. i always do it now but only because I have access to the equipment.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
While on this subject - are chains in general any better than belts on other makes of vehicles? Some of my friends rant and rave because they don't need to change the belt, but I still don't trust them. And wouldn't they need to be lubed up every so often?

This is subject of endless debate, but you must take everything in context I suppose. But if you just stick within the context of Volkswagen engines, the belt driven ones will easily be the better choice for longevity. Heck, VAG has a 130k mile service interval on some belts, and that is probably a conservative number. This Tiguan here had its chain drive blow apart and tooef the engine at 98k! :rolleyes:

I have also over the years seen a lot of Nissan, Toyota, Ford, GM, and other chain drives fail in a spectacular fashion. Heck, GM has redesigned the 3.6L V6's chain drive FOUR TIMES already in an effort to curb problems with it.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
While on this subject - are chains in general any better than belts on other makes of vehicles? Some of my friends rant and rave because they don't need to change the belt, but I still don't trust them. And wouldn't they need to be lubed up every so often?
Timing chains are within the lubricated space of the engine. There's plenty of oil splashing around. Typically the return path of oil from the valvetrain is the tunnel for the timing chain.

I've never had to replace a timing chain on any car or motorcycle engine that I've owned that has a chain. A few times on motorcycle engines, I've replaced the chain (and the guides) because I was in there anyhow. But, none of them have been VW Group engines. I've replaced tensioners the odd time. Honda has had a historical problem with timing chain tensioners across several generations of CBR600 engines. I replaced the automatic tensioner on my ZX10R with a manual tensioner (screw and locknut) ... but that engine has 13.5:1 Wossner pistons, Web camshafts, select-fit thin head gasket for tighter squish clearance, etc.
 

PC Passat

Active member
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Location
Scottsdale, Az.
TDI
2017 Jetta GLI
Oilhammer, can the chain be inspected for a resonable price or just replace like a belt? My sister has a 2006 maybe with V8 4.2 with 100,000 miles. Should she be concerned?
 

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Location
Alabama
TDI
2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2015 Jetta
Also, it depends on location. An urban area with its higher labor rates vs a rural area with much lower labor rates. My biggest concern on those cheap rotors is are they from China? I'd rather spend more money paying a local machinist to redo the rotors than waste money on Chinese crap.
Brembo fronts are $40, turning is $28, the difference isn't worth it, the back is a loss to turn, I think in total I was going to save $2. I'm in a pretty rural location, city population is 8k.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
MichVW;5047218[B said:
]well... sitting at the local VW dealer getting the free 20,000 service done on the wife's JSW this morning. Told them not to touch the ECM or flash the 2306 update. Unfortunately, the car already had the update. Sucks. Oh well.[/B].

<snip>.

Hello MichVW:)

May I please ask how they got the 2306 flash on your car:confused:

In my case I believe my 2015 Golf had the 2309 flash at the dealership before I bought it new. Not 100% sure
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
In my case I believe my 2015 Golf had the 2309 flash at the dealership before I bought it new. Not 100% sure
Your car (a 2015) has a different engine. I am pretty sure that the 23O6 software update was only for 2010-2014 model year cars. Your (2015) engine has a different emissions system and different programming.

Have Fun!

Don
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
Your car (a 2015) has a different engine. I am pretty sure that the 23O6 software update was only for 2010-2014 model year cars. Your (2015) engine has a different emissions system and different programming.

Have Fun!

Don
Don

A tip of my hat

Good day:)
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
May I please ask how they got the 2306 flash on your car:confused:
Based on his post, I would imagine that they did a "woops...my bad...it was already flashed before we could tell the technician that you didn't want it done." :rolleyes: I've heard of that happening more than a couple times.

If someone's car pulls up as needing the 2306 recall and they don't want it done...don't take it to the dealership for work. Period.
 

kitarkus

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Location
Kansas City USA
TDI
2013 JSW TDI
VW Aiming to Return to Debt Market

This article, to me, indicates that VW has a pretty damn good idea of how much this diesel fiasco is going to cost them http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-debt-idUSKCN0X81A7 or else they intend to blow sunshine right up the arse of the banks. You can take this any way that your brain wishes.....but perhaps this is an early indication that VW feels that news will be provided henceforth.
 
Last edited:

2015vwgolfdiesel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
Based on his post, I would imagine that they did a "woops...my bad...it was already flashed before we could tell the technician that you didn't want it done." :rolleyes: I've heard of that happening more than a couple times.

If someone's car pulls up as needing the 2306 recall and they don't want it done...don't take it to the dealership for work. Period.
bubba thanks for your post:)
 

TCBinaflash

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Location
Chagrin Falls, OH
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
The bulk of the other countries go by the Euro 'x' (whatever the exact standard name is)...for which a "fix" was already agreed to (though it has been halted). That and lets be honest...most of the politicians and regulators in those countries just don't give a $h1t about this. Couple to that fact these countries seem to have weak consumer protection laws...VW just doesn't have much to worry about there.

For the purposes of booking losses for CY 15 In Euro 'x' countries...I would imagine that the "fix" cost and projected penalties/fines is what they'll use for those countries.

While they'll still have some unresolved issues (i.e. South Korea)...countries like that are just not going to result in a huge burden...at least not billions of dollars worth. They can throw out a WAG (Wild A55 Guess) and move on.

For them to wrap up and post a 2015 loss number that's even in the ballpark...they have to resolve the U.S. Their exposure could be anywhere from (hypothetical) $5B to $50B. Unless they come up with some kind of agreement with U.S. regulators in the next ~16 days...there's just no way that they could post even a WAG for a total loss the end of April.

So yes...they "only" sold 600,000 cars in the U.S...and percentage wise...it's a small percentage of total TDI sales...but it's our legal system (possible fines, damages to consumers, etc.) that makes them so significant.

Just to add to this- I did the math last week.

If VW can meet NoX in Europe but customers take a hit on fuel consumption they are looking at about 2.5 billion in customer coupons/cash back.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
This article, to me, indicates that VW has a pretty damn good idea of how much this diesel fiasco is going to cost them http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-debt-idUSKCN0X81A7 or else they intend to blow sunshine right up the arse of the banks. You can take this any way that your brain wishes.....but perhaps this is an early indication that VW feels that news will be provided henceforth.

kit:)

vw can-might gull the banks once.

After that vw is a long term goner.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Location
Oklahoma
TDI
2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
Just to add to this- I did the math last week.

If VW can meet NoX in Europe but customers take a hit on fuel consumption they are looking at about 2.5 billion in customer coupons/cash back.
Respectfully $2,500,000,000 seems a little low to me.

add to that the warranty issues ... and the resale value issues ... what did I forget?
 

MichVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2014 JSW DSG. 2011 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
Based on his post, I would imagine that they did a "woops...my bad...it was already flashed before we could tell the technician that you didn't want it done." :rolleyes: I've heard of that happening more than a couple times.

If someone's car pulls up as needing the 2306 recall and they don't want it done...don't take it to the dealership for work. Period.

Actually, due to work commitments, I had my wife take the car in for it's FREE 10,000 service. I am 99.9% sure they flashed the ECM at this time without telling her (why would they).
I would have to pull the paperwork from that service to confirm that it was flashed. Oh well.... It is what it is.... It was flashed already and was done without my knowing. My fault? probably...
 

TDIintheLOU

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2015
Location
St. Louis Mo
TDI
Passat SEL
This article, to me, indicates that VW has a pretty damn good idea of how much this diesel fiasco is going to cost them http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-debt-idUSKCN0X81A7 or else they intend to blow sunshine right up the arse of the banks. You can take this any way that your brain wishes.....but perhaps this is an early indication that VW feels that news will be provided henceforth.
Spot on Kit.

It would appear that the board has made a decision and knows what the out of pocket cost are going to be. Surely the bank would be smart enough to see thru a smelly pile if VW came in spreading it.

Good or bad at least its possibly a movement in addressing this issue. I'm not holding on to my breath though.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
Actually, due to work commitments, I had my wife take the car in for it's FREE 10,000 service. I am 99.9% sure they flashed the ECM at this time without telling her (why would they).
I would have to pull the paperwork from that service to confirm that it was flashed. Oh well.... It is what it is.... It was flashed already and was done without my knowing. My fault? probably...
Regardless of who took the car in, they did it without getting customer authorization to complete the recall. That was my point.

Edit: In my case, I agreed to the recall (last summer) as I wasn't bright enough to check in here prior to ok'ing it.
 
Last edited:

TCBinaflash

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Location
Chagrin Falls, OH
TDI
2012 Golf TDI

Torque17

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Location
New York
TDI
2012 Golf TDI
NHTSA Intervention required.

17 years old, killed in a minor accident. Unforgivable.
vw, there you go again...

I would think vw IS stalling the recall fix, not takata. Obviously, stalling (until dieselgate solution is accepted) is on purpose to save $$$.

NHTSA should intervene immediately to avoid further procrastination by vw OR declare its safe to drive (for now:rolleyes:).

vw should also ADD a note to their dieselgate web page that its safe to drive with faulty airbags (for now:rolleyes:).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top