Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[GoFaster]

Transit buses since 2010-ish will have the same DPF and SCR hardware as any other heavy-duty application. The transit systems around Toronto all use diesel. I think school buses are required to be diesel (as a follow-up to the I-71 bus crash in the late 1980s that involved a gasoline-fueled Ford school bus - look it up for some history on this).

 

[JBell]

I sorta agree with you, but getting 30-40 kids back and forth to school seems worth the NOX per child.
As opposed to hauling our miserable selves to the local curmudgeon meetings.

I personally agree with you. But with the way a lot of these folks on this board talk, they act like ANY NoX kills people. "Om my God, it sticks in your lungs forever!" and "My kids are breathing in the NoX, so I'm not driving my vehicle" are some of the statements that I read. So if it flat out kills kills people like they suggest, why allow increased numbers in buses and other mechanical platforms that emit NoX?

Bottom line, I think limiting emissions is great. However, the cost to do it is becoming absurd (SCR, DPF, etc.). Same conversation can be had about shutting down coal industry. But that's not for this thread.

 

[bring]

Great....then prove it for me now

Hahahahahahaha - nice try speculation boy - prove your stance

 

[turbobrick240]

That's the "weekend ozone" effect at work where ozone/smog problems get WORSE on the weekends. This is a time when there is about 90% less diesel truck traffic on the roads. The weekend ozone effect has been observed in tunnels too so I don't think it is due to everybody out mowing their lawns on the weekends. Hypothetically if all diesels were banned from the roads you would have the weekend ozone effect 7 days a week.

Hypothetically, yes in some regions, in certain conditions. The weekend ozone effect is fairly rare in most of N. America outside of the SoCal air basin these days. Too much VOC saturation from trees and vegetation. Even in the SoCal air basin there is often enough VOC in the atmosphere during hot weather to prevent the weekend ozone effect.

 

[durundal]

I think VW presented the fix they spoke of that reduced the "top end" of the cars (5 or 10% drop in power maybe?), but the EPA/CARB want something that has been tested for reliability (which takes six months per one poster here). Maybe they asked for the new solution to be verified by an outside party. When we hear "there is no fix" we really don't know what it was and why it didn't pass the EPAs muster. I doubt they (EPA) got the fix installed on a car, tested it and then came back and said "sorry it doesn't work."

As the poster said above - I think VW presented the fix and the EPA wanted a buyback option and didn't even bother to consider a fix only solution.

EDIT: In short - I think CARB wants Gen 1 off the road at least in CA and didn't consider any other offer. I wonder if VW will throw CARB under the bus and come to court and say "you asked for a fix, we presented one to you. You turned it down without even testing it, etc etc" could they then sue the EPA/CARB?

You're making a big assumption that VW has anything approaching hardware available to apply to the engines. From the Jan 12 rejection: "First, VW fails to describe the nonconformities in sufficient detail for CARB to adequately understand them in the context of the recall plans, in order to determine whether the proposed fixes are feasible or would remedy each of the nonconformities. Second, VW fails to specifically describe the fixes in its proposed recall plans in a manner that allows CARB to adequately evaluate whether they could be successful or are even technically feasible. Third, the proposed plans do not sufficiently address impacts on the engine, the vehicle's overall operation, and all related emission control technologies, including the OBD system."

The part in bold is the sort of statement that if you got it as feedback at a review on a government contract you were executing you would start floating your resume that night, not even waiting to get dressed down by management the next day.

 

[pkhoury]

Transit buses since 2010-ish will have the same DPF and SCR hardware as any other heavy-duty application. The transit systems around Toronto all use diesel. I think school buses are required to be diesel (as a follow-up to the I-71 bus crash in the late 1980s that involved a gasoline-fueled Ford school bus - look it up for some history on this).

They actually had gasoline-powered school buses? What kind of idiot would buy ANY gasoline-powered bus? I'm guessing the same idiot who buys a gasoline-powered big rig truck?

 

[GoFaster]

From https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/420f08026.pdf

NOx Urban Diesel Bus 14.793g/mi, Diesel School Bus 10.536g/mi

WVU 1.5g/km worst average on route 3 converted to mi 2.414g/mi

So nowhere near a bus.

Using newer bus data: http://mjbradley.com/sites/default/files/CNG Diesel Hybrid Comparison FINAL 05nov13.pdf
2012 MB bus 1.66g/mi, so there are some lower now.

Your original link represents the in-use fleet as of 2008, which pre-dated any appreciable use of DPF/SCR in heavy-duty applications.

We should be comparing technologies of the same generation - and in that case, it's fair to say that a "cheating" TDI (2009-onward) emits approximately the same as a transit bus of the same vintage (current emissions technology). You can nitpick by claiming that the 2009 TDI pre-dated full implementation of NOx emissions on heavy-duty by a year or so; don't bother. A 2014 TDI (last year of LNT) emits about the same NOx as a 2014 urban transit bus with legitimate and legal emission controls.

 

[pkhoury]

I personally agree with you. But with the way a lot of these folks on this board talk, they act like ANY NoX kills people. "Om my God, it sticks in your lungs forever!" and "My kids are breathing in the NoX, so I'm not driving my vehicle" are some of the statements that I read. So if it flat out kills kills people like they suggest, why allow increased numbers in buses and other mechanical platforms that emit NoX?

Bottom line, I think limiting emissions is great. However, the cost to do it is becoming absurd (SCR, DPF, etc.). Same conversation can be had about shutting down coal industry. But that's not for this thread.

Here's the thread for those who want to rant about it:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=452806

 

[JBell]

Here's the thread for those who want to rant about it:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=452806

But that's not an OT sub-section.

 

[GoFaster]

They actually had gasoline-powered school buses? What kind of idiot would by ANY gasoline-powered bus? I'm guessing the same idiot who buys a gasoline-powered big rig truck?

I went to public school in the 1970s and high school in the 1980s, every bit of that back and forth on gasoline-powered school buses. That's the way it was back then.

Go back to the 1960s and before, and even many transport trucks were gasoline powered.

Most of these cool trucks ...

... had a Ford big-block V8 "truck" gas engine with as much as 534 cubic inches. They could even be had with the trusty 300 cu in Six.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C-Series

 

[PaulN]

FWIW....this Kentucky lawsuit gave me an idea. It took me 5 minutes to file a complaint against Volkswagen of North America in Herndon, VA with my state Attorney General via the AG website. Just fill out a form and it gets assigned to someone in the office who must respond. Enough people file and states will be obliged to at least look into the possibility of protecting their citizens. Take a few minutes and file one in your state.

I don't think you should be encouraging others to do this. To mix metaphors, I hope it turns out that you did not jump the gun and shoot yourself in the foot...

How are you going to feel if the big fat juicy resolution package from VW includes terms and conditions which make it void if you have initiated action like that?

You couldn't wait a couple more days to see what Judge Breyer does?

 

[MrSprdSheet]

Bottom line, I think limiting emissions is great. However, the cost to do it is becoming absurd (SCR, DPF, etc.). Same conversation can be had about shutting down coal industry. But that's not for this thread.

When it has been said that $300-400 would have been the marginal cost to finish the SCR system into these cars, or perhaps have stuck with the Mercedes license, that VW killed, not sure where "absurd" comes from.

We could go massively off-topic, on coal, but the premise there, too, is that costs to substitute (including NG) are "achievable" under the clean air act. If that scares anyone, the EPA target for the U.S. coal in electricity is 30%, in 2030 (the end of the clean pwr plan). It's already supposed to go down to ~33% at the end of this year (beneath NG, for the first time).

 

[turbobrick240]

They actually had gasoline-powered school buses? What kind of idiot would buy ANY gasoline-powered bus? I'm guessing the same idiot who buys a gasoline-powered big rig truck?

Most school busses were probably gasoline fueled at one time. The school busses in my rural area were mostly gassers in the early to mid eighties. I agree that it was generally a poor idea. I've always thought diesel vehicles have an inherent fire safety advantage.

 

[MichVW]

VW pays you $3000 in cash and grandfathers your car. That's it.

Not without a lawsuit they dont. There will be no grandfathering of any Gen 1 vehicles. Mark my words. They will not get away without a major buyback. If they try a different route, they will be slapped with more lawsuits than they can count.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

You're making a big assumption that VW has anything approaching hardware available to apply to the engines. From the Jan 12 rejection: "First, VW fails to describe the nonconformities in sufficient detail for CARB to adequately understand them in the context of the recall plans, in order to determine whether the proposed fixes are feasible or would remedy each of the nonconformities. Second, VW fails to specifically describe the fixes in its proposed recall plans in a manner that allows CARB to adequately evaluate whether they could be successful or are even technically feasible. Third, the proposed plans do not sufficiently address impacts on the engine, the vehicle's overall operation, and all related emission control technologies, including the OBD system."

The part in bold is the sort of statement that if you got it as feedback at a review on a government contract you were executing you would start floating your resume that night, not even waiting to get dressed down by management the next day.

Yup. From the sounds of it...VWs proposed fix (for at least some of the cars) was nothing more than a concept/collection of ideas with no real substance. i.e. This "new" catalytic converter that people were talking about.

If VW could have fielded a "magic" catalytic converter and if they REALLY thought it would have fixed the issue...they would have installed it quietly when they conned people into coming in for the 2306 recall.

 

[LRTDI]

I'm sticking to my guns and repeating I think VW will have to buy them all back and export them to South America

 

[goldstein]

So why did you just buy one after the scandal came to light? Are you too embarrassed to admit you didn't do your research, or just not that bright?

I will be honest, I am looking for easy money. My friends told me to do it, like the time I got an Israeli passport, didn't really need it but it came with a $3,000 check from the US government so I'm not complaining.

 

[pkhoury]

I went to public school in the 1970s and high school in the 1980s, every bit of that back and forth on gasoline-powered school buses. That's the way it was back then.

Crazy - never knew there were gasoline-powered school buses. I started school in the mid-80s and we ONLY had diesel buses.

Go back to the 1960s and before, and even many transport trucks were gasoline powered.

Most of these cool trucks ...

... had a Ford big-block V8 "truck" gas engine with as much as 534 cubic inches. They could even be had with the trusty 300 cu in Six.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C-Series

I'm well aware of trucks like that being gasoline-powered, but I was referring to 18 wheelers. I have yet to see one powered by gasoline.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Not without a lawsuit they dont. There will be no grandfathering of any
Gen 1 vehicles. Mark my words. They will not get away without a
major buyback. If they try a different route, they will be slapped with
more lawsuits than they can count.

Ha Ha Nostradamus has spoken.... OK I'll mark you words, and $20 says
you are wrong on either: "major" buyback will happen and/or wrong Gen 1's
will not be grandfathered.

Well Zoltar, is it a bet.... Put your money where your wild *** guessing is.
It is possible for either but I doubt it, and my crystal ball says it is more
ikely that there will be no buyback or "minor" buyback if any. I also think i
t is even odds that Gen 1 grandfather, but modification more likely.

Modification is most likely for all VW TDI's because we know the Gen 1's
can pass the test when put into cheat mode (fact) and the performance is
OK as people who have tested it, loss of about 3-4 mpg and 0.5 seconds on
0-60 times.... degraded yes but not a show stopper. Also the ECU flash will
be voluntary in non-draconian cities and states.

 

[TDILeo]

Yup. From the sounds of it...VWs proposed fix (for at least some of the cars) was nothing more than a concept/collection of ideas with no real substance. i.e. This "new" catalytic converter that people were talking about.
If VW could have fielded a "magic" catalytic converter and if they REALLY thought it would have fixed the issue...they would have installed it quietly when they conned people into coming in for the 2306 recall.

Mullite!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw-yn2RLcu0

 

[pkhoury]

I will be honest, I am looking for easy money. My friends told me to do it, like the time I got an Israeli passport, didn't really need it but it came with a $3,000 check from the US government so I'm not complaining.

So that makes you better than VW then, by trying to cheat the cheater? I'm sure that whatever the settlement entails, title status will probably be looked at.

Honestly, you have no right to whine about your car when here, you admitted your intentions in your purchase of it and did so after the fact (dieselgate).

 

[haunruh]

I'm well aware of trucks like that being gasoline-powered, but I was referring to 18 wheelers. I have yet to see one powered by gasoline.

Here's the last one, supposedly ...
http://www.thecarlive.com/chevy-semi-trucks

 

[MichVW]

Modification is most likely for all VW TDI's because we know the Gen 1's
can pass the test when put into cheat mode (fact) and the performance is
OK as people who have tested it, loss of about 3-4 mpg and 0.5 seconds on
0-60 times.... degraded yes but not a show stopper. Also the ECU flash will
be voluntary in non-draconian cities and states.

And what makes you think owners will simply settle for less performance and more fuel consumption? Do you honestly think VW'S solution (acceptable by all parties) is a reflash? If that was the case they would have stared reflash in cars in September 2015. Stop being so obtuse.

 

[autdi]

Your original link represents the in-use fleet as of 2008, which pre-dated any appreciable use of DPF/SCR in heavy-duty applications.

We should be comparing technologies of the same generation - and in that case, it's fair to say that a "cheating" TDI (2009-onward) emits approximately the same as a transit bus of the same vintage (current emissions technology). You can nitpick by claiming that the 2009 TDI pre-dated full implementation of NOx emissions on heavy-duty by a year or so; don't bother. A 2014 TDI (last year of LNT) emits about the same NOx as a 2014 urban transit bus with legitimate and legal emission controls.

The bus also has easily cleaned DPFs, and vastly higher CO and CO2 generation. You get lower NOx by making more PM and CO2. If I have a cleanable DPF, PM disappears, only to be cleaned out later, which isn't an option on the car sized DPFs right now. So I have to get PM down pre-DPF, cleaner burn, but more NOx.

 

[volks27]

Hey, maybe that could be a defense: VW had to keep the emissions software from needing more than 360 KB of memory!

It's ok, you will never need more than 640kb of memory - bill gates

 

[pkhoury]

Here's the last one, supposedly ...
http://www.thecarlive.com/chevy-semi-trucks

LOL. Probably 2-3mpg and as much NOx as 30 TDIs. Don't quote me, this is a speculative guess.

 

[autdi]

It's ok, you will never need more than 640kb of memory - bill gates

Come on people, we landed a man on the moon with only 32k of ROM and 4k of RAM. What on earth would I need 640k for?

 

[pkhoury]

Come on people, we landed a man on the moon with only 32k of ROM and 4k of RAM. What on earth would I need 640k for?

The IBM System/360 had ROM? I thought it was all RAM, tapes, hard drive packs, and high energy consumption?

 

[kitarkus]

I don't think you should be encouraging others to do this. To mix metaphors, I hope it turns out that you did not jump the gun and shoot yourself in the foot...
How are you going to feel if the big fat juicy resolution package from VW includes terms and conditions which make it void if you have initiated action like that?
You couldn't wait a couple more days to see what Judge Breyer does?

Get real. You don't think that AG's around the country haven't already received countless complaints?

 

[autdi]

The IBM System/360 had ROM? I thought it was all RAM, tapes, hard drive packs, and high energy consumption?

Apollo AGC, fixed wired ROM and donut core RAM. Designed by MIT, stitched together by Raytheon.