Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[Vidgamer]

I test drove a Mini many years ago. It was fun, but also harsh. You could feel every bump in the road! It definitely had that "go kart" feel to it. Storage seemed limited, but I had enough room to sit, so it could be ok. In the end, I don't think I'd want to live with it. They look cute tho. I'd be willing to give it another chance, but it's not on my short list now.

 

[Slum Cut]

Hmmm, I wonder: Is "Pseudonym" a pseudonym for Lucidexp?

This is the guy who announced he is a lawyer as proof that he was right about some nonsense he was saying. "Effing amateurs think they know something because they watched an episode of Matlock I'M A LAWYER I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW" etc.

 

[Slum Cut]

If anyone's interested, I got a letter in a DHL delivery envelope, from a local VW dealer that wants my old TDI bad. VW tasked them with purchasing 50 used VWs by 3/31 and regardless of condition, are paying up to 20% above book value. Sounds like a deal to me.

Isn't "book value" based on condition among other things? Definitely interesting, can you elaborate or even post the letter?

 

[tvmaster]

If anyone's interested, I got a letter in a DHL delivery envelope, from a local VW dealer that wants my old TDI bad. VW tasked them with purchasing 50 used VWs by 3/31 and regardless of condition, are paying up to 20% above book value. Sounds like a deal to me.

Do you think they're purchasing them to A. experiment on, or B. resell, because they know something about the upcoming fix that will raise the TDI's value somehow...

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

If anyone's interested, I got a letter in a DHL delivery envelope, from a local VW dealer that wants my old TDI bad. VW tasked them with purchasing 50 used VWs by 3/31 and regardless of condition, are paying up to 20% above book value. Sounds like a deal to me.

DHL sounds serious on the surface. $12 (?) $18 (?)

1 -- VW TASKED

2 -- HYPE Why knows

3 -- 20% about what? -- Trade Value -- Rough -- Average -- Clean

-------------

Side bar ~~~ I have been watching NADA RETAIL and it is firming up -- some -- my car

For what it is worth ~~ I track my car at (full bore) RETAIL -- because if I was wanting to sell it -- That is what I would shoot for AFTER all the haggling.

Never trade cars

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Isn't "book value" based on condition among other things? Definitely interesting, can you elaborate or even post the letter?

I too would like to see it

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Do you think they're purchasing them to A. experiment on, or B. resell, because they know something about the upcoming fix that will raise the TDI's value somehow...

When you say invest -- guess you mean to get then into the inventory for a sale. In this area I believe the currant "GAME" is to buy 'em $5,000 -- $7,000 under current comp sales. (pre desielgate)

While $3,000 - $5,000 might be a normal mark up on a used TDI ~~ it is obvious they are currently hammering the trade value to dirt. Or will not even take 'em..

OMO don't think he has any inside knowledge ~~ just doing business

 

[cut'em]

Just read this on Bloomberg news;
"In bargaining so far, U.S. and California officials have insisted that any settlement give all customers the right to sell their cars back to Volkswagen, if they want to, said one of the people. While VW has said buybacks are a possibility, fixing the cars is the company’s preferred option."

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Past KBB car values (pre dieselgate)

http://www.kbb.com/company/faq/used-cars/#uc_12


[FONT=&quot]How can I get the value of my car on a past date?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Occasionally we get a request from a consumer for the value of a particular vehicle at a particular date in history. This request may be for litigation, estate planning, taxes, etc. The fee for a Past Value Report is $35 per value. We do sell these older books as well, and in some cases the book may be less expensive than the Past Value Report. To request a Past Value Report or archive book, please contact our Customer Service Department at 1-800-258-3266, option 2. This service usually has a 48-72 hour turn around time. If you do not wish to purchase a report or book, our publications can often be found at libraries or credit unions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]http://www.kbb.com/company/faq/used-cars/#uc_12[/FONT]

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

Just read this on Bloomberg news;
"In bargaining so far, U.S. and California officials have insisted that any settlement give all customers the right to sell their cars back to Volkswagen, if they want to, said one of the people. While VW has said buybacks are a possibility, fixing the cars is the company’s preferred option."

LINK?


Respectfully,

Sell 'em back at what price?
MSRP?
Accrual purchase price?
If you had a trade -- how is that figured?

What about used car owners -- them too?

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

VW buy backs ?

[FONT=&quot]VW Said in Talks With U.S. Over Two Funds to Pay for Pollution[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John Lippert and Christoph Rauwald[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mar 17, 2016 5:32 am ET[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen AG is in talks with U.S. authorities to establish a national remediation fund and a separate one for California as punishment for pollution from its cars after the automaker cheated on diesel-emissions tests, said people familiar with the matter.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]One fund would be administered by the Environmental Protection Agency and used to promote clean transportation throughout the U.S.; the other would be run by California to promote zero-emission vehicles in the state, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private. Negotiations are continuing and many details are in flux, the people said.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]A deal would help settle a U.S. Department of Justice civil lawsuit and clear a key obstacle as the German automaker tries to emerge from a scandal affecting 11 million of its vehicles worldwide. Volkswagen, which faces billions of dollars in regulatory fines and legal compensation, has a March 24 court deadline in California to present a solution for nearly 600,000 U.S. cars whose diesel engines were rigged to pass emissions tests while polluting more than allowed.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Representatives for VW, the EPA, the Department of Justice and the California Air Resources Board declined to comment on the details of the negotiations.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]California Court[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On Jan. 4, the Justice Department sued Volkswagen for violating the Clean Air Act. U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer, who is presiding over the case, has ordered the company to produce a solution at next week’s court date in San Francisco. Penalties for the four violations could total as much as $46 billion, according to Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Kevin Tynan, prompting the need to negotiate a deal that would be manageable. A U.S. settlement would add to the 6.7 billion euros ($7.4 billion) that VW has set aside for the scandal, including repairing 8.5 million vehicles in Europe.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Justice Department’s process is similar to its civil suit against BP Plc after the 2010 Deepwater Horizon offshore oil spill, a department official who asked not to be cited by name because of the active litigation has said. In BP, the U.S. coordinated its case with those by private plaintiffs. The government has linked its case against Volkswagen with consumer suits and those filed by several state attorneys general that are now before Breyer. The department is separately investigating whether Volkswagen or its executives violated any criminal laws.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Talks between U.S. authorities and VW were complex and started slowly as the manufacturer initially denied any wrongdoing and then went through a series of changes in leadership and legal advisers, said the people.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Recent Progress

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Negotiations over solutions started to make progress only in recent weeks, they said. Francisco Javier Garcia Sanz, Volkswagen’s head of purchasing and the longest-serving member of its management board, took control of the talks from technical staff in December.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Settling the Justice Department’s civil lawsuit will include the two mitigation funds and agreements on plans to reduce nitrogen-oxide emissions from vehicles that remain on the road, the people said. In bargaining so far, U.S. and California officials have insisted that any settlement give all customers the right to sell their cars back to Volkswagen, if they want to, said one of the people. While VW has said buybacks are a possibility, fixing the cars is the company’s preferred option.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In cases where durability of emissions controls is a concern, the government may require Volkswagen to expand its warranties and replace catalytic converters or other equipment every 25,000 miles, said John German, co-lead of the International Council on Clean Transportation. The ICCT is a nonprofit group that helped expose Volkswagen’s cheating last year.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Progress has been made toward agreeing on a new engine-control software and hardware to lower harmful emissions, according to the people. But it’s unlikely that a breakthrough resolving all the technical questions including hardware fixes can be reached by next week.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]“As of today, we do not believe any of the three generations of vehicle technologies for the 2-liter vehicles can be repaired to meet their certified emissions levels,” Todd Sax, chief of the California board’s enforcement division, said last week at a state Senate Environmental Quality Committee hearing.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]--With assistance from Jeff Plungis Margaret Cronin Fisk and Dana Hull To contact the reporters on this story: John Lippert in Chicago at jlippert@bloomberg.net, Christoph Rauwald in Frankfurt at crauwald@bloomberg.net. To contact the editors responsible for this story: Jamie Butters at jbutters@bloomberg.net, Chris Reiter at creiter2@bloomberg.net, John Lear[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]©2016 Bloomberg L.P.[/FONT]

http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-O44Q8L6S972A01-7SU7Q3FGQHG33L5SJ8L7JGRB9V

 

[oilhammer]

It's so quiet on the news front it makes me think something is actually happening

No, just that America has moved on to the next short lived sensation, the presidential election coverage.

Besides, despite what some in this thread think, Dieselgate is barely a blip on most folks' radar screen... most do not even know it exists.

 

[DSL HED]

I like the concept of selling my car back to VW. Sounds like a splendid idea to me to allow people to dump it and buy what they want from another brand. Of course who knows if they'll give me more than a dollar for it.

Really interested in the Niro but I have to wait a while before it's even available to test drive. BTW, Kia is offering a $25 Visa GC if you test drive on of their cars by the end of the month.

 

[dbias]

I agree with the fact that the consumer will be not be forced in to hardship. I wonder if there may be some type of certification of repair of the vehicle at the point of sale or transfer. (only if there is a soulation)
I would hope the EPA would work with VW by off setting fines with removing the vehicles of the owners who perfer to do so. I would also hope that the EPA will give VW some time to come up with a long term tested solution anywhere from 12 to 24 months. VW would then be expected to pay a larger fine for all vehicles left on the road during that time.
Basically if the total of the projected fines are 37k per vehicle. VW would pay that same amount weather the vehicles are removed from the road or not. For every vehicle left on the road VW would pay ?? to keep them on the road until a solution can be implemented. And for every vehicle VW can buy back and remove from the road the fine would be a very small percentage of that 37k. Maybe with an increased incentive to get into a gasser VW.

I thought the 37k fine was for the first few vehicles and reduced on a sliding scale thereafter.

 

[Vidgamer]

Sure, VW would prefer a fix, but didn't we come to the conclusion that there probably isn't a real, effective fix, and if there were, it'd probably compromise the car? I will be fascinated to hear what they come up with!

 

[durundal]

I thought the 37k fine was for the first few vehicles and reduced on a sliding scale thereafter.

Nope, each and every, plus some change:

up to $32,500 per 2.0L Subject Vehicle and 3.0L Subject Vehicle for each violation occurring before January 13, 2009, and up to $37,500 per 2.0L Subject Vehicle and 3.0L Subject Vehicle for each violation occurring on or after January 13, 2009 for violations of Section 203(a)(1) of the Act;
ii. up to $32,500 per 2.0L Subject Vehicle and 3.0L Subject Vehicle for each violation occurring before January 13, 2009, and up to $37,500 per 2.0L Subject Vehicle and 3.0L Subject Vehicle for each violation occurring on or after January 13, 2009 for violations of Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act;
up to $2,750 per “defeat device” per 2.0L Subject Vehicle and 3.0L Subject Vehicle for each violation occurring before January 13, 2009, and up to $3,750 per “defeat device” per 2.0L Subject Vehicle and 3.0L Subject Vehicle for each violation occurring on or after January 13, 2009 for violations of Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Act; and
iv. up to $32,500 per day of violation occurring before January 13, 2009, and up to $37,500 per day of violation occurring on or after January 13, 2009 for violations of Section 203(a)(2) of the Act.

 

[dgoodhue]

I wish I could force myself to do the same. The Outback is an excellent buy, has great utility, and phenomenal re-sale value. My wife has a 2013 Outback and I have a 2013 JSW TDI.

If I were to force myself into an Outback I would have to get the 6 cylinder just to avoid the CVT. I absolutely understand why so many people buy Outbacks....but the driving experience is seriously lacking....and man oh man that CVT is noisy.

Edit: I take back what I said. In 2013 the 6 cylinder had a regular transmission....now I see the new 6 cylinders are also CVT.

I am pretty sure Subaru now simulates shifts on the new Outback CVT's. I have 6MT 4 cylinder '12 Legacy for my own daily driver. I sort of wished my wife had chosen a Subaru Outback or Forester when she bought her car. (The Outback was on her list of final 3 cars, but she didn't want to wait for the 2015 Outback to test drive it.) Now with dieselgate, I really wish that she had waited. I personally think long term that a Subaru on average is simpler and will be easier/cheaper to repair. The TDI feels quicker than my Subaru in every day driving and it does have nice touches that my Subaru does not have.

They all got the SAME mileage, regardless of engine. All about 26mpg highway and a bit less around town.

Even now, I sometimes drive my parents 12 Outback with the 4 cylinder and my inlaws 12 Outback with the H6 engine....yup, 26mpg highway. Maybe I got 27 once.

So, the H6 gets the same highway mileage as the 4 banger, and, it actually has some get up and go to it.

I'd probably end up back in the Subaru camp, but with a Forester, since you can still get it with a 6mt.

I have only owned one Subaru, most of my other daily drivers were Toyotas. My Legacy's lifetime average is 29mpg, so it seems better than older ones. My car will easily get 32-34mpg on the highway. The fuel economy is obviously it nowhere as good as my wife TDI.

 

[newbeetleman]

No, just that America has moved on to the next short lived sensation, the presidential election coverage.

Besides, despite what some in this thread think, Dieselgate is barely a blip on most folks' radar screen... most do not even know it exists.

There ares about 10-15 here that are beating in into the ground.

just kidding people, chill out.

My car runs just like it did before the "scandal". I think they should just say "all 2.0's can replace current DPF set up" as long as they replace with a rawtech set up.. or similar.

 

[oilhammer]

There ares about 10-15 here that are beating in into the ground.

just kidding people, chill out.

My car runs just like it did before the "scandal". I think they should just say "all 2.0's can replace current DPF set up" as long as they replace with a rawtech set up.. or similar.

Mine will run BETTER, since I will pay a tuner to have his way with it.

 

[PFCoppinger]

I purely drove Subarus before getting my JSW:
95 Impreza sedan 2.2l engine
01 Legacy wagon 2.5l engine(my favorite)
04 Outback 2.5l engine
12 Impreza Sport 2.0 engine
They all got the SAME mileage, regardless of engine. All about 26mpg highway and a bit less around town.
Even now, I sometimes drive my parents 12 Outback with the 4 cylinder and my inlaws 12 Outback with the H6 engine....yup, 26mpg highway. Maybe I got 27 once.
So, the H6 gets the same highway mileage as the 4 banger, and, it actually has some get up and go to it.
I'd probably end up back in the Subaru camp, but with a Forester, since you can still get it with a 6mt.

The Forester is smaller than the Outback, right? It is a bummer that these things have CVT, and even more of a bummer that the MT only comes on the stripped trim level.

 

[kitarkus]

The Forester is smaller than the Outback, right? It is a bummer that these things have CVT, and even more of a bummer that the MT only comes on the stripped trim level.

The Forester is not just smaller imo. I really like the format, utility, and price of the Forester, however, it is an altogether 'lesser' car when compared to the Outback. I found the Forester to have far less sound dampening and overall quality feel when compared to the Outback (and the CVT equipped Outback is already noisy imo). Forester cargo is taller when compared to the Outback. These days the price range between Forester and Outback has also narrowed more.

Should VW make me a reasonable buy back offer I will likely do this or similar http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/5489793418.html After the adventure of owning a VW TDI...this should provide ongoing mechanical 'adventure'.

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

All auto makers to pay for the sins of VW

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ryone-must-pay-the-price-for-sins-of-the-past



EPA is on a new path ~~ Thanks to VW

 

[newbeetleman]

The Forester is not just smaller imo. I really like the format, utility, and price of the Forester, however, it is an altogether 'lesser' car when compared to the Outback. I found the Forester to have far less sound dampening and overall quality feel when compared to the Outback (and the CVT equipped Outback is already noisy imo). Forester cargo is taller when compared to the Outback. These days the price range between Forester and Outback has also narrowed more.

Should VW make me a reasonable buy back offer I will likely do this or similar http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/5489793418.html After the adventure of owning a VW TDI...this should provide ongoing mechanical 'adventure'.

I really like the look of those wagons..

 

[MrSprdSheet]

RE: Bloomberg, this morning
You can almost tell they're setting up a "fix vs. remediation" formula, which basically tells me those not wanting their cars altered are going to get what they wish for. Conversely, all the "funds" that CARB/EPA prefer, and VW's "prefer not to buy back", mean others wanting their cars truly fixed are likely SOL.

"(Bloomberg) Progress has been made toward agreeing on a new engine-control software and hardware to lower harmful emissions, according to the people. But it’s unlikely that a breakthrough resolving all the technical questions including hardware fixes can be reached by next week."

Such BS. The biggest negative reaction by the stock, with any respect to owners, was to potential buybacks. Next to that would be fixing cars @$2-4k each. This is about money, not how to catalyze nitrogen oxides.

Also, interesting that ICCT had input into the story. Means they may be called upon to validate any fix.

 

[dmarsingill]

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ryone-must-pay-the-price-for-sins-of-the-past



EPA is on a new path ~~ Thanks to VW

And it is the wrong path. Automakers will eventually get tired of it and stop selling here. There is only so far that automakers will go before it is cost prohibitive. I will go back to buying used cars with no safety features and tons of emissions before paying alot extra to cover the cost of meeting new regulations. 1996 regs were a perfect time for safety and emissions. OBD2 cleaned up the air dramatically.

Donald

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

RE: Bloomberg, this morning
You can almost tell they're setting up a "fix vs. remediation" formula, which basically tells me those not wanting their cars altered are going to get what they wish for. Conversely, all the "funds" that CARB/EPA prefer, and VW's "prefer not to buy back", mean others wanting their cars truly fixed are likely SOL.

"(Bloomberg) Progress has been made toward agreeing on a new engine-control software and hardware to lower harmful emissions, according to the people. But it’s unlikely that a breakthrough resolving all the technical questions including hardware fixes can be reached by next week."

Such BS. The biggest negative reaction by the stock, with any respect to owners, was to potential buybacks. Next to that would be fixing cars @$2-4k each. This is about money, not how to catalyze nitrogen oxides.

Also, interesting that ICCT had input into the story. Means they may be called upon to validate any fix.

Yup. From the sounds of it, this plan isn't just at the rough/conceptual stage. I'm betting the EPA and CARB fund structure and amounts will be announced in short order (at the court hearing on the 24th...at the latest).

Other than talk of buying back ~50,000 cars (at purchase price) on a couple news sites today...it's been pretty quiet, as far as news concerning vehicle owners go.

And yeah...anyone that's wanting their cars truly fixed...I don't think that was ever going to happen. Sure, .gov wants it...but VW was never going to make that happen.

Edit:

And it is the wrong path. Automakers will eventually get tired of it and stop selling here. There is only so far that automakers will go before it is cost prohibitive. I will go back to buying used cars with no safety features and tons of emissions before paying alot extra to cover the cost of meeting new regulations. 1996 regs were a perfect time for safety and emissions. OBD2 cleaned up the air dramatically.

Donald

It's not that difficult. Design the vehicle to pass existing emissions standards from day one and you (as a company) won't find yourself in this boat.

VW could have just paid to license the BlueTec technology from Mercedes, built the cost into the TDI's, and they would have sold like hotcakes. VW could have charged a premium, as it would have been justified by incorporating technology from a luxury car maker.

As I've said before...they (VW) often sell their cars for MUCH less than MSRP. A few hundred or even $1,000 built into the MSRP would not have turned off that many people. That or just don't discount them so significantly and keep the MSRP where it is. I just don't buy the "it's cost prohibitive to do it right" position.

 

[Jeta Life]

Subaru Volvo Audi AWD

AWD eats up the fuel economy, spending $1000 a year on fuel is better than $2000. AWD comes in handy about 10 drives out of a total 600 drives per year for me. The TDI is my beater. Nor'easters in my area usually happen once or twice a year.
It's all about the power, people want to feel powerful when they're behind the wheel. I'd rather save on fuel. The few times it does snow I take it easy and drive behind the trucks tires. That's what a beater is for, getting stuck on a snow drift is for fools, FWD can handle most situations.
I've driven only FWD my whole life besides the Explorer I had which was a beast in the snow. But it sure was a gas guzzler.

 

[IA DPE]

A Fiat diesel? I hear that they have the reliability of a cardboard boat.

A friend has a Grand Cherokee Diesel and its left him stranded along the highway so many times it's our running joke. One time he picked it up at the dealer, asked how long it would run "this time." They acted offended. He made it less than three miles.

He's tried to get them to take it back but it's now over 36k miles (wasn't when this first started) and they refuse. I was actually interested in one of them until his experience.

 

[kitarkus]

Such BS. The biggest negative reaction by the stock, with any respect to owners, was to potential buybacks. Next to that would be fixing cars @$2-4k each. This is about money, not how to catalyze nitrogen oxides.

Of course this is all about money at this stage...but who are you calling BS on? Unless CARB/EPA wish to FORCE TDI's off the road and out of the hands of potentially unwilling TDI owners...a hornet's nest as we have discussed ad nauseum.

It is reasonably clear that VW has no full fix to meet "emissions and OBD requirements". CARB/EPA's willingness to accept a "less than full fix" and to "allow TDI's to remain on the road" is an act solely intended to appease unwitting TDI consumers who do not wish to have their car keys forced away from them imo. In an effort for CARB/EBA to maintain some degree of precedent, to penalize VW, and to make attempt to prevent other manufacturers from carrying out a similar fraud....money is really the only logical choice for penalty.

The article does state that 'officials have insisted thus far that any settlement allow all customers the right to sell back their vehicles'. Clearly CARB/EPA would prefer that the TDI's be removed from the road...they are between a rock (emissions) and a hard place (consumers who own the vehicles already). Thankfully, CARB/EPA do not intend to force TDI owners to involuntarily given up their vehicles or force TDI owners into adverse financial consequences. VW has already forced enough adverse consequences upon TDI owners.

Now...assuming no fix to meet emissions and OBD requirements....if CARB/EPA exact some massive and solely self serving monetary penalty WITHOUT forcing a buy-back option as part of their negotiation.....only THEN would I agree that it is ALL about the money.

 

[mjLyco]

AWD eats up the fuel economy, spending $1000 a year on fuel is better than $2000. AWD comes in handy about 10 drives out of a total 600 drives per year for me. The TDI is my beater. Nor'easters in my area usually happen once or twice a year.
It's all about the power, people want to feel powerful when they're behind the wheel. I'd rather save on fuel. The few times it does snow I take it easy and drive behind the trucks tires. That's what a beater is for, getting stuck on a snow drift is for fools, FWD can handle most situations.
I've driven only FWD my whole life besides the Explorer I had which was a beast in the snow. But it sure was a gas guzzler.

Adding AWD to a vehicle doesn't double the fuel cost... it's maybe a 10% penalty in modern FWD biased clutch based AWD systems.
I get that FWD is good for your situation, but AWD is not all about feeling powerful.
AWD doesn't just help with snow. It helps put power down with high HP vehicles. It helps with spirited driving by reducing understeer. It helps you traverse muddy and unpaved roads. It helps with hill ascent and descent. It helps with towing. etc. etc.