Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[UFO]

My 2013 Passat passed CA emissions test only last month.

Should I assume that the Passat was running in "test mode" to pass that test?

No, they do not test for NOx emissions, only opacity.

 

[Palladin]

Is this in any way connected with the ECU update letter we all received back in April? My notice included a piece from California stating if the update wasn't done the car would not be registered. I had it done.

 

[Andy_2009_JSW]

This sucks. I joined this forum just yesterday in search of a TDI JSW. I live in an emissions county so this recall is really going to put a hold on me buying a used TDI.

Also, this may drastically affect the MPGs drivers will get as well as the emissions equipment reliability. Damn, I may have to look into a different car all together. Not looking forward to that.

If you're in GA like your location says, you're in luck. All diesels are EXEMPT from the 13 county area around Atlanta that's subject to emissions testing.

From http://www.cleanairforce.com/motorists/frequently-asked-questions/:

Which vehicles have to be tested?
If your vehicle is a 1991 – 2012 model year gasoline-powered car or light-duty truck (8,500 pounds gross vehicle weight rating or less) registered in Cherokee, Clayton, Cobb, Coweta, DeKalb, Douglas, Fayette, Forsyth, Fulton, Gwinnett, Henry, Paulding or Rockdale County, it must be emissions tested.
The three most recent model year vehicles are exempt from emissions testing each year. For registration in 2015, this includes all 2013 and newer model year vehicles.
Additionally, vehicles that are 25 model years or older are exempt from emissions testing. This includes 1990 or older model year vehicles.
If you are late renewing your registration for your birthday in 2014, your vehicle will be tested according to the 2015 rules.
Things to remember:

• A vehicle’s model year is the year the vehicle was built as designated by the vehicle manufacturer.
• Certain exemptions and extensions may apply to your vehicle (see below).
• Motorcycles, recreational vehicles (RVs) and motor homes do not require emissions testing for registration.
• Diesel vehicles do not require emissions testing for registration

 

[Bmr4TDI]

there are specific laws and regulations regarding off road engines as well. violations of the law are for removal of the emissions equipment apply to whatever condition was authorized for sale in the US.

the whole idea that "off road" lets you off the hook is not a legal concept that will provide any relief in court. ( I am not a lawyer)

the only protection is that the federal and state enforcement racks cases in order of impact, and a single operator is not likely to cause enough damage to health or environment to get above the funds to prosecute line. (if they ever did get around to it, the civil penalty of a few thousand per violation could mean per-day of operation)

(in this case, half a million TDI vehicles VW sold at increased emissions is higher on the do-something list than a few hundred dpf removal pipes and tunes, or a single car owner, except if caught by enforcement activities in areas where air quality (or lack thereof) call for pre-registration inspection and checks.)

You missed my point. Example - I'm saying that legally I can remove the catalytic converter from my car. It would only be illegal to drive the car on public roads. If I get caught on public roads, I will be fined and would have to make the car road legal again. There is no law that prevents someone from doing "off road" only mods to their car and I pray there never is.

Another example, if you buy a brand new Mustang Cobra Jet straight from Ford, they come without cats installed and are not road legal. But you can still legally drive them on any private road you have permission to be on.

 

[soot1]

Bmr4TDI: Please keep in mind that this issue only affects some 2009-2015 TDI models. None of the vehicles older than 2009 model year are impacted, and neither are the larger 6-cylinder, 3-liter engines, irrespective of model year.

 

[Bmr4TDI]

If you're in GA like your location says, you're in luck. All diesels are EXEMPT from the 13 county area around Atlanta that's subject to emissions testing.

From http://www.cleanairforce.com/motorists/frequently-asked-questions/:

Which vehicles have to be tested?
If your vehicle is a 1991 – 2012 model year gasoline-powered car or light-duty truck (8,500 pounds gross vehicle weight rating or less) registered in Cherokee, Clayton, Cobb, Coweta, DeKalb, Douglas, Fayette, Forsyth, Fulton, Gwinnett, Henry, Paulding or Rockdale County, it must be emissions tested.
The three most recent model year vehicles are exempt from emissions testing each year. For registration in 2015, this includes all 2013 and newer model year vehicles.
Additionally, vehicles that are 25 model years or older are exempt from emissions testing. This includes 1990 or older model year vehicles.
If you are late renewing your registration for your birthday in 2014, your vehicle will be tested according to the 2015 rules.
Things to remember:

• A vehicle’s model year is the year the vehicle was built as designated by the vehicle manufacturer.
• Certain exemptions and extensions may apply to your vehicle (see below).
• Motorcycles, recreational vehicles (RVs) and motor homes do not require emissions testing for registration.
• Diesel vehicles do not require emissions testing for registration

Dude, thank you for that. I've never owned a diesel so I was completely unaware of that. I'll still keep a close eye on this because I'm banking on getting mid to high 40 mpgs on the highway as a reason to buy a TDI.

 

[Bmr4TDI]

Bmr4TDI: Please keep in mind that this issue only affects some 2009-2015 TDI models. None of the vehicles older than 2009 model year are impacted, and neither are the larger 6-cylinder, 3-liter engines, irrespective of model year.

Yeah, I'm only looking at 2011-2012 JSW TDIs. 12k - 14k is my range.

 

[2011tdiproject]

I don't have time right now to read this whole thread, but I came across this news earlier and laughed out loud, wondering if this might actually get VW more customers. Where I read earlier, under the article for every "shame on you VW" comment, there were more than 10:1 against the EPA. The EPA does what they do without any of our input, (why don't we at least get to vote on acceptable emissions vs fuel economy, imagine that as a concept), and everything they do costs us money, so it's little wonder why so many people are opposed to them.

 

[Jason4]

There's lots of misinformation in this thread but JollyGreenGiant and GoFaster seem to understand how this works.

I fortunately don't have anything to do with emissions or compliance testing but my former cube mate put a lot of time into it so I know a bit about the relationship between manufacturers and the EPA/CARB. The emissions cert test clearly requires that the manufacturer doesn't do anything like what VW has done, it's nothing new and it's not the last time it'll happen. It's surprising that VW got away with it for so long and also bold on VWs part that their actual FE is so much better than the FE measured in the FTP test.

My understanding of how VW works is that the emissions calibration work is done in-market, that is saying that the engineering work for a north American car is done by engineers in NA. They likely have German support but it won't go back to a team of Germans to get extradited or anything silly like that.

The fix sounds as simple as disabling the recognition of a test condition and running the test cal all the time. It will impact FE as there is a definite relationship between EGR, NOx, in cylinder temps, soot, and FE. In the end, I'd support higher NOx for the benefit of lower soot, lower CO2, and better efficiency but I don't get to tell the regulators that.

My guess is we'll get higher EGR flow to reduce in-cylinder temps which results in reduced NOx, increased soot output, reduced power, more frequent regens, reduced fuel economy (to match the EPA estimates), and maybe issues with soot fouling various components (EGR cooler, back pressure valve, VG turbo, etc). I'd bet that VW did it to address the soot fouling issues more than anything.

 

[El Dobro]

Well now I know why I kept getting server busy messages.

 

[alphaseinor]

VW air rule violation allegations $18B fine?

from here: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/18/vw-air-rule-violation-allegations-stunning-18b-fine-unlikely/

PRESS RELEASE
Of course I am disappointed with the VW managers that authorized the OBD-II tampering code inclusion for US-based TDIs. There is already some discussion of my latest 48-state Guinness World Record in the 2015 VW Golf TDI being annulled because of this and nobody worked harder to make that drive a success than I did.

Saying that, the power, torque, and efficiency of diesel still holds just as true today as it did yesterday. The 2013 VW Passat that reached all 48-States at 77.99 mpg, even after what we learned today, was and continues to be 100 percent EPA and CARB emissions compliant. Does anyone know of a large mid-size sedan that can reach every state in the lower 48 over the course of 14-days at that level of efficiency?

Another possible good outcome of the Notice of Violation of the Clean Air Act is that the EPA results for the Monroney were all calculated with the VW TDIs emissions control systems being 100 percent EPA and CARB compliant. If so, there will be no mileage restatements and owners will continue to receive all the benefits that the TDI Turbo Diesel has offered from the first time they drove off the dealership lot to the moment the car is taken to the junk yard decades from now.

NOx reduction via selective catalytic reduction is also just as viable today as it was yesterday. As long as the UREA dosage rates are correct, NOx is all but eliminated during any drive cycle. DEF consumption will surely increase with the new EPA emissions compliant flash – maybe a small drop in power output as well, but I am not sure how deep the OBD-II changes went – but the end result will be a cleaner VW/Audi TDI program going forward, which is good for everyone.

This is most certainly a short-to-intermediate setback for the VW Corporation of America, Audi, and the TDI moniker. However, name a compact through mid-size sedan that offers the ease to drive and massive torque output of a TDI while consuming 20 to 50 percent less fuel over the same distances vs any other non-turbo diesel offering? This has not changed with today's news.

 

[J.R.]

Agree, this has the makings of a crap sandwich.




If it was no big deal, then why cheat in the first place?

To me it says (screams?) they cheated because they could not meet emissions limits without adding a lot of expensive components that would have increased the price of the cars to the point where few would buy them.

This wasn't a small oversight. The potential risk for liabilities/fines was huge.

I'm not saying it's no big deal but until we actually have some real numbers, it seems silly to panic. 40X? can be alarming or exceedingly minor depending on what you're starting with. I'm merely suggesting we wait until all the facts are in before we start completely panicking.

 

[no-blue-screen]

Is this in any way connected with the ECU update letter we all received back in April? My notice included a piece from California stating if the update wasn't done the car would not be registered. I had it done.

I never received a letter but was informed of this by the dealer and it was described as a federal emissions update. Having said that, they are holding 2016 models at port when they should have already had time to update the engine management on them if the update were available...but maybe I am wrong.

This would lead me to believe there will be another update before those cars are released to dealers...again pure speculation on my part.

 

[n1das]

This is embarrassing as a VW owner, but more importantly as a diesel owner. Here we are trying to increase diesel's share of the marketplace, and Volkswagen, the largest seller of diesel vehicles, is actively circumventing emissions regulations and creating a very negative news day for diesels.

What VeeDubTDI said. I'm pist at VW over this and will watch with interest and wait for all the facts to come out. I'm also wondering if this will cause other diesel vehicle manufacturers (BMW, MB, etc.) to come under increased scrutiny.

 

[PassatSE4me]

I knew the TDi mileage was too good to be true.

Glad there will be an anti-fix available sooner or later.

 

[2snakes]

Didn't something similar happen to heavy engine manufacturers in 1992 or 1994? I thought I remembered Cat, Cummins, Detroit busted for something similar.

 

[J.R.]

In the end, I'd support higher NOx for the benefit of lower soot, lower CO2, and better efficiency but I don't get to tell the regulators that.

Presumably, as a voting American citizen, yes, yes you should.

 

[Kabin]

As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions. Are the Emissions rules more relaxed in Europe? How did these people justify the cheating in their mind so that they felt ok with it?
for other things related to the Earth the Europeans seem to be relatively progressive. My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place.

My thoughts exactly. This could be an all time low for the VW Auto Group. I wouldn't feel bad if they received the maximum fine.

 

[dst5]

It doesnt matter how small a number you start with they fact is VW committed fraud against the government and every citizen that breathes air by lying purposefully and error of omission is a lie. If you don't think so than maybe you should reevaluate your morals.

 

[chimaera]

I'm left with a few thoughts at this point:

1. Have any tuners figured out where the test map is stored in the ECU and compared it to the normal operating one?

2. I wonder what WVU's test data would have looked like if they had used EN 590 (European) spec fuel?

Fuel quality has a significant impact on emissions, and US fuel is known for being well below the quality of European fuel.

 

[chimaera]

Presumably, as a voting American citizen, yes, yes you should.

No you shouldn't but you deserve to see the evidence base the regulators use in setting the specification. I'm curious to see how the EPA NOx spec compares to the levels required for public health.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

Presumably, as a voting American citizen, yes, yes you should.

Not my quote.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

Once these fixes start rolling out, I can think of another group of people who are going to be making big $$$: Our TDI tuners!

Unless the EPA decides to stomp them in the face.


Even the Canadian ones. There is legal precedent to go after Canadians for violating US law even if they did it without setting foot in the USA.

http://www.hazmatmag.com/environmen...s-not-apply-to-canadian-operation/1000030988/

http://www.hazmatmag.com/environmen...ution-agreement-with-teck-cominco/1000053277/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-order-issued-for-pot-activist-emery-1.878376

 

[meerschm]

You missed my point. Example - I'm saying that legally I can remove the catalytic converter from my car. It would only be illegal to drive the car on public roads. If I get caught on public roads, I will be fined and would have to make the car road legal again. There is no law that prevents someone from doing "off road" only mods to their car and I pray there never is.

Another example, if you buy a Mustang or Camaro drag racing car straight from Ford, they come with NO Emissions equipment installed and are not road legal. But you can still drive them on any private road you have permission to be on.

I think you misunderstand the law. Not looking for any argument, so feel free to disagree, or research more.

and there are differences between state and federal laws. some states have specific exemptions for registered race or show cars, some do not.

where there are specific exemptions, they apply. but usually they come with paperwork. just tearing off the equipment from a car sold in the us with an EPA compliance certificate without the proper paperwork is a violation

policies for civil fines are discussed here (kind of old, but basically says balance the fine with the damage, unless you have to make a point)

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/vehicleengine-penalty-policy_0.pdf

as a practical matter, your description is close. the likely course for a single owner would be to have to fix (repair the removed or disabled emissions) the car, instead of getting a hefty fine. but that does not make the law go away.

 

[meerschm]

No you shouldn't but you deserve to see the evidence base the regulators use in setting the specification. I'm curious to see how the EPA NOx spec compares to the levels required for public health.

all the rulemaking is pretty wide open, with comment periods, reviews for public comment, including cost impacts, and input from health researchers.

the specs are set, actual levels are measured and compared to medical statistics, and where the air quality falls short, vehicle inspections on a state/local level are in place, tied to registration.

example:

http://www3.epa.gov/ttn/caaa/otagsip.html

and more info here http://www2.epa.gov/laws-regulations/regulations#track

 

[Kabin]

Please! Americans have been defeating their own emissions systems themselves for as long as they have been required and to far dirtier limits than this probably did. Go look at the performance forum here and you tube videos of cars and trucks "rolling coal" where owners do the same thing. Many other mfg's have done other things as well. I just read about trucking companies buying new chassis and putting old rebuilt engines/drive trains/axles in them to get around emissions. VW is just the latest to get caught doing something wrong.

Performance forums are small scale compared to this. And comparing knuckleheaded youtube rolling coal videos still misses the point by a long shot.

I'm not sure any new diesel vehicle manufacturer has ever cheated the system on this scale. No doubt there's been failed manufacturer tests but not mass production fraud like this. There'll be sacrificial VW heads on a pole. And rightly so.

 

[ScareCityCrow]

No matter what opinion you hold of the EPA, it was totally unethical for VW to cheat. I think the bigger issue is the damage done to the reputation of the technology. If the uninformed masses believe that this technology isn't as miraculous as it is then it will never have a future. The diesel community can't even begin to form a defense because now we don't actually know how well the cars perform, some key info is based on bad practice. Frustrating.

 

[GoFaster]

Didn't something similar happen to heavy engine manufacturers in 1992 or 1994? I thought I remembered Cat, Cummins, Detroit busted for something similar.

Yes; pretty much all of the heavy truck engine manufacturers were doing these shenanigans in that era and got busted for it.

"those who do not study history, are doomed to repeat it" ...

The European regulators have been aware of discrepancies between as-tested and on-road emissions for some time, and I'm sure they are watching this with interest.

There's another thing to bear in mind here. All OEM emission-certification everywhere in the world (Doesn't matter US EPA or UN-ECE) is done to standardised tests. As long as you pass those standardised tests you are good to go. Every gasoline engine that I've ever seen, goes rich under full load (high revs and near wide open throttle) to protect itself from going kaboom - some of them (*cough* Ecoboost!) enough to belch black smoke under those conditions. This isn't considered a "defeat" because it is an operating condition that is outside of those encountered in the standardised test procedures. These engines operate in closed loop at light load and lower revs the same on the dyno as they do on the road.

 

[Garth Libre]

My Sportwagen TDI is a 2014 and still under warranty. I'm opposed to altering anything on the car as I regularly get 40 plus mpg in stop and go city and once I'm on the highway for any length of time I always average 58 to 61 mpg at 55 to 60 mph. I imagine that anything VW does to the car to make it EPA compliant now can be reversed by someone with computer knowledge. Is that the case?

 

[Andy_2009_JSW]

My understanding of how VW works is that the emissions calibration work is done in-market, that is saying that the engineering work for a north American car is done by engineers in NA. They likely have German support but it won't go back to a team of Germans to get extradited or anything silly like that.

Interesting, yes that does make some sense. Thanks for bringing up that point.

My guess is we'll get higher EGR flow to reduce in-cylinder temps which results in reduced NOx, increased soot output, reduced power, more frequent regens, reduced fuel economy (to match the EPA estimates), and maybe issues with soot fouling various components (EGR cooler, back pressure valve, VG turbo, etc). I'd bet that VW did it to address the soot fouling issues more than anything.

The exhaust gas is hot, so I'd expect that to increase the temps, no?

And I'm currently living with the soot fouling issues now -- "EGR Insufficient Flow" -- due to a presumed cracked DPF (black soot at tailpipe). That's a $5K replacement cost on the 2009's, and toss some extra in too now that my EGR is getting clogged. Really makes it hard not to lean toward a delete for half that cost...