Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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Stealth TDI

Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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2017 GTI APR Stage 3 (395 hp/376 lb-ft)
Hello,

All pertinent information is summarized in the first post. You can make your own conclusions based on the facts provided. Most of the posts here are drivel or people asking questions that are answered in the first post. Additional threads will only spread the drivel out across the forum, further degrading the signal-to-noise ratio.
This thread is endless tripe and sniping. Have the moderators considered whether to post an announcement when a course of action is identified? Perhaps the recall itself? I get that post #1 contains updated info. I'd rather just ignore this and enjoy the drive until the real fix is announced. Will a new thread or announcement happen when the time comes? Reading here (this thread) is a general waste of time.

We're going to split the facts and pertinent information out into a separate locked thread so that people can find it more easily. This existing thread will remain for discussion of the issues. Expect this to happen sometime today (Tuesday).
I imagine this will work, too. I can subscribe to that thread and then get updates as the mods share them. That way, those whose cars are unaffected don't have to see the announcement. "Get the facts, please." That'll work. I look forward to that thread. :)

Scott
 

dst5

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
Passat 2013 TDI
I absolutely LOVE all the fear mongering going on, how VW is done, the TDI is dead, and we'll all die of cancer now that VW 'lied' to us.

Meanwhile I'll continue to smile while driving my trusty B4's with bigger injectors and chips that put out a lot more 'pollutants' than anything in this decade.

I have perused this thread (minus the last 12 pages that cropped up overnight....c'mon guys!) and have some tidbits that warrant a response:



We can talk about your morals when you put them on display for us or we catch you at something. Until then, the EPA doesn't exactly have the highest moral standing either. Maybe it's time to reassess your morals if you aren't looking at the history on both sides of the equation. As to the 'fraud against the government', I nearly fell out of my chair laughing at that one! Oh that is just too funny.



Without merit? You mean like the spill they knew was more than likely beforehand (AP FIOA request), the lack of a suitable disaster plan, the denial to release initial analysis data to state agencies, and the doctoring of the video they put up on their own website because it painted them in a less than positive light? Oh no my friend, the EPA has earned its reputation.

And don't get me going on the Clean Water or Air Act since I have dealt with those regulations and regulators over the last 24 years as an environmental engineer. I have stories that would make Mother Teresa's blood boil. Suffice to say, the EPA does NOT have our best interests at heart nor are they concerned with anything so noble as protecting us. You agree with them because you see what they want you to see and not behind the scenes. They are not your friend.

That is not to say I agree with what VW did, but I understand it.

As to the private contractor ricochet, they were hired by the EPA who was on site directing them. That they were not in the operators seat is irrelevant. They were also not there trying to clean up the mess, they were doing a site assessment, try to get your facts right if you're going to deflect responsibility. To anyone who doubts this, do the research, there is plenty out there and how it was mishandled by the EPA from the very beginning. If a private company tried to do this they'd be in jail right now, but the EPA is not culpable or responsible.



Exactly, it's like dumping a beer on a forest fire. The EPA will go after VW like a rabid dog and VW will pay a huge fine, all while the EPA sells credits to the largest polluters to keep them in operation while doing multiple orders of magnitude more damage to the environment they are supposed to protect. Your credibility as a 'protection agency' goes out the window, and it's all legal.

When they start regulating all forms of pollutant the same, since we 'live in one world', then maybe their rules will have more merit. But so long as the rules are for sale to the highest bidder and ignored by numerous point and non-point sources, they will continue to be ineffective.



Have you been through the comment process? I have multiple times and it's a joke. Individual comments are ignored and not considered and mass comments are dismissed as being from fringe groups without standing. The regulators do as they want since that is their agenda and the ends justifies the means, they know better than some uneducated petulant children. It's all about a cleaner world and you just don't understand. They know better than you since they were elected to office and you were not, therefore they assume their will is to be enforced and not yours, regardless of the science, the ego, or the absurdity.

As to being immoral or unethical to 'go along with' the enforcement and made up laws on which you had no say, I call bunk on that. This very country was FOUNDED on such dissension. No, we as individuals are not ethically or morally obligated to follow such dictated conformity when such rules have caveats for sale to the highest bidder. Sorry, but I will not be some mindless automaton blindly following orders of people with ulterior motives.

So to recap, I do not agree with what VW did, but I understand it. I also do not agree with the EPA's methodology or rationale on clean air or the Clean Air Act (or the Clean Water Act for that matter). VW will pay a hefty fine, make nice with the EPA, get sued by CARB (who does receive money from the penalty even if the EPA's goes to the Treasury), make a correction the EPA signs off on, and this will all blow under the rug in short order. The TDI's will take a hit on the fuel economy and hybrid owners will point to this to justify their purchases. In short, the world will keep spinning as we know it.

Meanwhile, I'll keep my rusty, smokey, dirty old TDI's going as long as I can because that is what benefits me as an individual. If rules are in place to make me an environmental criminal, then I have no problem being one.
. I also do not agree with the EPA's methodology or rationale on clean air or the Clean Air Act (or the Clean Water Act for that matter).

iT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU AGREE IT IS THE LAW.
 

sandydeb

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Location
NJ
TDI
2014 Passat SE 6MT Black
Define a stupid regulation and give an example
Any regulation that is designed without any idea of how it will or can be implemented in the real world? I just gave you the CAFE example.
The rule sets the equivalent of 54.5 miles per gallon as the average the auto industry must achieve by 2025, up from 29.7 mpg now and 35.5 mpg in 2016.
The 'how' part is clearly missing. Automakers will cheat and skew numbers in whatever way possible. GM and Ford will dump millions of garbage rate economy cars to rental fleets to offset their profitable truck sales, as they do now.
Seems like the companies just when to where it was easier and more profitable. I don't envy anyone living downstream from a mine in China and I don't want the pollution (and human health affects) in the US that China is currently dealing with.
You missed the point. The only way fleets can come even close to achieving the above mandated mileage standards is through massive adoption of battery intensive cars. EPA standards do not allow for minerals essential for building those batteries to be mined here. See the disconnect?
2) BMW meet the emission standards in the UWV test and, at least as far as we know right now, other manufactures have meet them too.
Yes - a high end BMW of which BMW sells maybe 100s. How does that matter for people trying to buy cars? Only one company sells economy diesels here and clearly, they cannot line up with the emissions standards EPA bureaucrats have dreamed up!
 
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JM Popaleetus

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Location
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TDI
Signature.
Firstly, comparing the fines issued by the NHTSA against GM versus the EPA against VW is pants-on-head retarded. They are different agencies, they can do things differently.

Second, with the news that VW has not only been cheating in the USA, but worldwide with 11 MILLION CARS now affected, one could argue that VW has polluted and harmed far more people than GM's ignition. VW was in it for the loonnnnggggg-con.

Again, it has just been revealed that VW has been cheating worldwide. They are expected to have to pay $7 BILLION IN REPAIR COSTS...BEFORE FINES. This might end up being the biggest automotive scandal in history now.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Mods, are you asleep?
Overwhelmed is more like it. Bear in mind that I am only doing this while taking a break from my real job. We fully recognize that there are PLENTY of infraction-worthy and ban-worthy posts in this thread. But when the thread keeps expanding faster than I can read it, nevermind do something about it ... ? ? ?

Hello,

This thread is endless tripe and sniping. Have the moderators considered whether to post an announcement when a course of action is identified? Perhaps the recall itself? I get that post #1 contains updated info. I'd rather just ignore this and enjoy the drive until the real fix is announced. Will a new thread or announcement happen when the time comes? Reading here (this thread) is a general waste of time.

I imagine this will work, too. I can subscribe to that thread and then get updates as the mods share them. That way, those whose cars are unaffected don't have to see the announcement. "Get the facts, please." That'll work. I look forward to that thread. :)

Scott
Post #1 has been updated from time to time with pertinent information.

Locking this thread would simply result in 10 more popping up in its place.

Might as well let the banter all stay in one place.
 

vwUMO

TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
Location
Maine
TDI
2003 JSW TDI 5MT ,2012 Jetta TDI 6MT, 2013 jetta TDI 6MT
When it comes to hybrids, EPA has successfully shifted 95% of mining of rare-earths (essential for all batteries) to China, where the 'standards' are substantially worse.
Environmental regulations in general, have shifted manufacturing to "offshore" locations. Mining is part of that. China has also been aggressively buying up mineral rights to acquire rare earth elements, to the point that now the DOD has conducted a study to determine how much risk exists with our ability to develop key defense components. Rare earth is more than just batteries: electric motors, switches, catalysts, airframes, etc.
See here for a brief breakdown: http://www.namibiarareearths.com/rare-earths-industry.asp

In our (collective free world) quest for cheap "good enough" goods, we've turned our backs on the fact that 9800+ people a year (reported) die in china workplace accidents (not including mining deaths) vs 235 (includes mines) or so in the US... And if you haven't been to China or India (I'm there regularly for work... I'd breath the tdi exhaust in china so that I could get fresher air), the level of air pollution is amazing. Out of sight out of mind for most though. Even if we rolled back regs to the 70's, the air would still be better than modern day China or India. All we've done is kick the can down the road to another country. What I would prefer, is rather than enforcement focus on cracking down on companies here in the US solely, strike a balance and enforce anything imported into this country and the standards that it mush follow. The impact would be much greater than our sole focus here. Cars are only a very small part of the puzzle. the reason industrial pollution is reduced is because we regulated it elsewhere.

It is good to imagine fairies and unicorns, but not to expect them in real life. If the vision is of a automobile free future then come out and say it and see how people react, instead of the slow boil toward un-achievable emissions and mileage targets designed to achieve the same by stealth.
We all love unicorns.
 

iamatt

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Location
Rosharon, Texas
TDI
2014 Jetta 6 Speed manual
No computers, no stations, no anything in Florida. You don't even need to get in your vehicle. You can renew from the comfort of your john using your mobile phone.

I realize this isn't the case for everyone, especially in CA, where it seems they frisk you at renewal each year.
Texas is pretty close too. Guy doesn't even get in the vehicle where I go. Just got my 2014 inspected , 7 bucks.
 

Serra

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Location
Orange Park, FL
TDI
2014 Passat
. I also do not agree with the EPA's methodology or rationale on clean air or the Clean Air Act (or the Clean Water Act for that matter).

iT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU AGREE IT IS THE LAW.
It isn't the law, it is a regulation. There is a big difference. A law is passed by the representatives of the people who were voted for. A regulation is created by the EPA in a vacuum. If we don't agree with it, then it should be changed.
 

BB62

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Location
Midwest
TDI
2012 Touareg TDI Sport
I will be buying VW Stock now. It is on sale.

Anyone that thinks VW is just going away because of this should not be on the TDIClub website....
I've considered that too, but since the price has been dropping since this past March for reasons I'm unaware of, it's not like the price was stable or on an upward tear.

It had been dropping for a reason, even though I don't know what it was.

I'm keeping my cash under the mattress for now.
 

Borsig

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Location
va
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SE, 2015 GSW SEL (buyback), 2011 JSW (sold)
Overwhelmed is more like it. Bear in mind that I am only doing this while taking a break from my real job. We fully recognize that there are PLENTY of infraction-worthy and ban-worthy posts in this thread. But when the thread keeps expanding faster than I can read it, nevermind do something about it ... ? ? ?



Post #1 has been updated from time to time with pertinent information.

Locking this thread would simply result in 10 more popping up in its place.

Might as well let the banter all stay in one place.

Probably wouldnt hurt to have a technical data only thread.
 

JM Popaleetus

Veteran Member
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Location
Connecticut
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Signature.
Anyone who thinks VW is in the right here, in any way, shape or form, is in denial. There is nothing to argue. VW cheated and got caught. They 'dun goofed. Don't blame any governments for doing their job.

If you disagree with what the EPA does, that's a whole other argument. That does not relate to VW in any way. Go lobby elsewhere.
 

105Uphill

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2000
Location
Danielson, Ct. USA
TDI
98 & 99.5 Jettas Black
Shame on VW for cheating ALL of us.
Shame on the EPA for not doing their own testing and catching this.

Maybe my last VW too.
Mileage isn't that much better then some of the new gassers.
We pay premium prices for diesel but I am not getting premium mileage like my A3 did.

Any word on Audi testing?
Now may be a good time to buy stock in BMW and MB.
 

rhino4evr

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Location
Boca Raton, FL
TDI
2013 JSW TDI
If there really is 11M vehicles that will need to be "fixed", I don't see how it's even remotely possible that 7.3 billion proposed can handle that.

I also have no idea how long of a process this could possibly take. It seems completely unrealistic of the EPA to assume that VW will be able to pull this off.

I guess we will find out.
 

MikeS_18

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Bow, NH
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon, '13 Passat SE, '64 Ford Econoline
Serious question:

I am seeing the 2013 Passat both included in the list on the first page, but NOT listed in the news reports.

Which is it?
 

sandydeb

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
NJ
TDI
2014 Passat SE 6MT Black
Out of sight out of mind for most though....
We all love unicorns.
NIMBY-ism and selective outrage and smugness is a hallmark of the progressive eco movement.

A guy driving Golf TDI for 10 years is responsible for substantially less pollution in this world than a guy buying a new Tesla every 3 years.
 

JM Popaleetus

Veteran Member
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Location
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Signature.
If there really is 11M vehicles that will need to be "fixed", I don't see how it's even remotely possible that 7.3 billion proposed can handle that.
I also have no idea how long of a process this could possibly take. It seems completely unrealistic of the EPA to assume that VW will be able to pull this off.
I guess we will find out.
Have some popcorn. This is going to be a great ride.

 

raybo

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
St. Petersburg, FL
TDI
2010 JSW DSG White Gold
Firstly, comparing the fines issued by the NHTSA against GM versus the EPA against VW is pants-on-head retarded. They are different agencies, they can do things differently.

Second, with the news that VW has not only been cheating in the USA, but worldwide with 11 MILLION CARS now affected, one could argue that VW has polluted and harmed far more people than GM's ignition. VW was in it for the loonnnnggggg-con.

Again, it has just been revealed that VW has been cheating worldwide. They are expected to have to pay $7 BILLION IN REPAIR COSTS...BEFORE FINES. This might end up being the biggest automotive scandal in history now.
Would have been cheaper to do what BMW and Mercedes did - actually meet the regs in the first place and not try to make diesels perform like gassers. I'm assuming the Cruze diesel (27/46 mpg) also meets the EPA regs, hence the 27 city rating.
 

totitan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
I have a BMW X-5 diesel and I sure hope the emissions system won't self destruct (I have 33k miles).

That said, my '05 Golf TDI is screaming strong at a tick under 300k (my daily)!!! Original, unmolested, and an automatic to boot.
My 335d is almost at 90K without any issues, however we dont use it for short in town trips...long distance only.
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
Have the moderators considered whether to post an announcement when a course of action is identified? Perhaps the recall itself? I get that post #1 contains updated info. I'd rather just ignore this and enjoy the drive until the real fix is announced. Will a new thread or announcement happen when the time comes? Reading here (this thread) is a general waste of time.

I can subscribe to that thread and then get updates as the mods share them. That way, those whose cars are unaffected don't have to see the announcement. "Get the facts, please." That'll work. I look forward to that thread.
Scott, it's being discussed and worked on behind the scenes right now. This thread is contained and VeeDubTDI and other moderators are deleting others that people start to keep it from spreading. The last thing anyone needs or wants is a VWVortex type site.
 

Roishe Cheng

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
South Bronx, NYC
TDI
2013 Passat
Overwhelmed is more like it. Bear in mind that I am only doing this while taking a break from my real job. We fully recognize that there are PLENTY of infraction-worthy and ban-worthy posts in this thread. But when the thread keeps expanding faster than I can read it, nevermind do something about it ... ? ? ?
Post #1 has been updated from time to time with pertinent information.
Locking this thread would simply result in 10 more popping up in its place.
Might as well let the banter all stay in one place.
There is a side benefit to all of this. It's proving out any performance enhancements made to the forum and how load it can realistically take. Probably seen the most IOPs in the past few days than an entire month!
 

Cincy_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Cincy
TDI
Passat SE TDI
They sold a product with false claims even cheated the public knowing the vehicle was not right. A buyback of my 2015 Jetta SEL TDI is the only acceptable option I see.

If not a lifetime warranty on the engine, transmission and exhuast system because you don't know how or what results of the changes they will make will have in the vehicle. Obviously they knew it was substandard and had to cheat to try and make it right.
 

raybo

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Location
St. Petersburg, FL
TDI
2010 JSW DSG White Gold
NIMBY-ism and selective outrage and smugness is a hallmark of the progressive eco movement.
A guy driving Golf TDI for 10 years is responsible for substantially less pollution in this world than a guy buying a new Tesla every 3 years.
Again, this is just talk. VW claimed the CR TDIs to be "Clean Diesel" and folks chose them over much cleaner options, some with better much mpg, based on the VW lie. There is no smugness on my part, I just try to do what I can. I'm detecting a bit of attitude from you...
And yes, there has to be a worldwide effort to reduce toxic pollution - that is a bigger issue. We need to know the environmental costs of our actions.
 
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tcutting

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Location
Coopersburg, PA
TDI
2012 Passat TDI
I have seen two different lists out there about cars that are effected by this. One list has my car on it the other does not. Do we know if the 2012 passat TDIs "made the cut?"
 

Stealth TDI

Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Newport News, VA
TDI
2017 GTI APR Stage 3 (395 hp/376 lb-ft)
Brian,

Locking this thread would simply result in 10 more popping up in its place. Might as well let the banter all stay in one place.
Agreed. Not looking to lock this one. Keep this crap in one place. But I want to unsubscribe so I stop seeing it in my feed. Even if all I look at is the top post, I have no way of knowing whether it has changed without looking at it frequently.

My thought, and what it looks like VeeDubTDI is going to do(?), is create a closed thread with the pertinent info. People who want the news can subscribe and then get notifications ONLY when a mod adds something worthy (as a new response) instead of every little rant from a wide variety of forum members.

Is that doable?

Thanks!
 

F1Diesel

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Location
D/FW
Be careful what you wish for.

The average stock X5 gets 22 MPG. None that are stock get 30. Most with the sport package get a mere 20.

Clogged DPFs, cracked EGR coolers, urea tank heater failures, tank leaks, etc. Our X5 gets 20 MPG in stock form, has had 7 EGR coolers crack, 1 clogged DPF, and several urea heaters fail. Clean Diesel technology kills the fuel economy. It uses 2.5 gallons of urea about every 9-10k miles as well. Once the DPF pressure reaches about 300 millibars, your fuel use goes way up.

There are many examples of BMW 3.0 liter diesels getting 30 MPG without the Clean Diesel technology in the AWD X5. A 40% plus increase in fuel economy.
 
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