Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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bubbagumpshrimp

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I have yet to suffer even a penny of loss from dieselgate. In fact, VW gave me a thousand dollars I didn't even ask for. And I'm supposed to be angry at and sue VW?
Well...people that were happy with their cars when this kicked off might have a different take than people (I.e. Myself) that were...say...car shopping when the news kicked off.

Edit: Obviously it's not anything like a physical injury, but it is a significant inconvenience when you (in August) start a job that requires you to be in your vehicle for 4-5 hours a day, sitting in traffic (with a manual transmission), with passengers (In a small car), and you just want something bigger that doesn't have a manual transmission.

That's all I want...out of my car. I don't want or need "generous compensation." If I could get a normal trade-in anywhere but VW, I'd have been out of my car months ago. I'm just sticking it out because the only thing I don't want more than my car is to take a bath to get out of it.
 
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dmarsingill

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Sorry, but for the folks I know (ourselves included), who doesn't? Early flips like that are a great way to lose money fast! Even in the north (read: salt and other body rot issues) it was rare to have a car much less than 8 . . . Now that I am in the south (read: no body rot issues, just heat. . . ). I don't think I have changed out a car that was less than 15 (well, other than one pickup that just didn't have what I needed . . .). Never totaled a thing . . .
And I can say the same for friends and neighbors . . . maybe I just hang with the wrong folks?


- Tim
The national average is 11 yrs.....I don't understand some people on here. I get that things change in your lives, but does it have to be dependent on your car. In 25 yrs of car ownership, I've never used the excuse, "I have to get a different car because....." So what if it only has 2 doors, and the car seat is hard to put in. I've been there.

Donald
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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The national average is 11 yrs.....I don't understand some people on here. I get that things change in your lives, but does it have to be dependent on your car. In 25 yrs of car ownership, I've never used the excuse, "I have to get a different car because....." So what if it only has 2 doors, and the car seat is hard to put in. I've been there.
Donald
Why do you care? What impact does it have on your life that not everyone looks at vehicles the same way as you do?

I get up for work at 0430 and often don't get home till after 7pm. I work 50+ hours/week, spend 4+ hours/day in the car, and I don't have time for a hobby, other than going to the gym. That's my treat to me...I get up at 0430 every morning and do that before work.

If I decide that I've had enough of a vehicle and I have the financial resources to get another one...I should be able to. I'm not saying that it's a brilliant financial decision to perpetually have a car payment...I'm just saying that if someone's vehicle is their one outlet/fun item in their day...I don't see what the problem is.
 

bizzle

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That is a very poor analogy. gearheadgrrrl is correct in that, as long as you are not in a position of having to sell the car, there is no loss.

A better analogy is perhaps an investment that is paying a dividend, but has gone down in price. As long as it keeps on paying its dividend ... you don't crystallize the loss unless you actually have to sell it. If you are happy with the dividend ... you don't have to sell it.
This analogy isn't any better. Stock purchases have an inherent risk factor. This is spelled out clearly before anyone purchases any. The reason for our car's faster than normal depreciation is due to fraudulent behavior from VW. Victims of that fraud, regardless of whether they experienced a loss, only have a limited window of time to sue for redress.
 

MichVW

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Why do you care? What impact does it have on your life that not everyone looks at vehicles the same way as you do?
I get up for work at 0430 and often don't get home till after 7pm. I work 50+ hours/week, spend 4+ hours/day in the car, and I don't have time for a hobby, other than going to the gym. That's my treat to me...I get up at 0430 every morning and do that before work.
If I decide that I've had enough of a vehicle and I have the financial resources to get another one...I should be able to. I'm not saying that it's a brilliant financial decision to perpetually have a car payment...I'm just saying that if someone's vehicle is their one outlet/fun item in their day...I don't see what the problem is.
Agreed. I am in a similar situation. Son was born in July and things changed. If I could have traded either of my cars 4 months ago without taking a bath, I would have. Not everyone is comfortable "making due" with a compact car because of a ridiculous scandal.

Those that choose to drive a vehicle for 10+ years, that's great. I also need to trade in my 2 door, regular cab, short box chevy silverado. Unless of course someone here can convince me how I can turn it into a family vehicle capable of accommodating 4 people...2 in car seats.

I think those that are preaching about "no buy back", "eventual fixes", or "drive more worry less" fall into three camps:

1) They are retired and just need transportation that is "fun to drive" and gets good mpg. They like their TDI and their life situation does not dictate what they drive, the vehicles size or capability. Or....

2) They have deleted all the emissions equipment on their car, dumped a ton of money into tunes, down pipe, exhaust, turbo, tint, wheels, suspension etc and are deathly afraid they will lose their A** on a buyback.

3) They are an enthusiast, in love with VW, and view thier vehicle as an extension of their soul. No comparable vehicles out there now, and none in the future. They have "I own a unicorn" syndrome.
 
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Smevans

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The national average is 11 yrs.....I don't understand some people on here. I get that things change in your lives, but does it have to be dependent on your car. In 25 yrs of car ownership, I've never used the excuse, "I have to get a different car because....." So what if it only has 2 doors, and the car seat is hard to put in. I've been there.

Donald
Some of us (well myself) have received company cars and no longer need a personal car. So now I have a car with a monthly payment that sits in a garage on storage insurance. Like the above poster, I don't want or need a large compensation. All I want is pre scandal resale value so I can sell the car without a significant loss.
 

peterdaniel

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And if all you whiners would have never heard about "dieselgate", you'd all be happily motoring in your TDIs. And you can still just ignore dieselgate, and keep on enjoying your TDIs. But NOOOO... Some people enjoy whining more than driving!

I like this girl....:)
 

Philpug

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Gone but not forgotten
I just did 210 mile round trip to go skiing, there were two of us in the car along with 6 pair of skis (we test skis) and 2 full boot bags and I averaged 42MPG. What car can I replace my JSW TDI with that I can do that?
 

tadawson

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If someone rapes you in your sleep, and you don't remember it happening, did a crime take place?
No, it's more like someone *tells* you were raped in your sleep, but you can't find any signs, evidence, proof etc. do you believe them that a crime was commited?

- Tim
 

MichVW

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I just did 210 mile round trip to go skiing, there were two of us in the car along with 6 pair of skis (we test skis) and 2 full boot bags and I averaged 42MPG. What car can I replace my JSW TDI with that I can do that?

Glad it worked well for you. Keep it and refuse any buy back offer. Your vehicle is obviously irreplaceable to YOU.
 

jhawklver

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I have yet to suffer even a penny of loss from dieselgate. In fact, VW gave me a thousand dollars I didn't even ask for. And I'm supposed to be angry at and sue VW?
No loss has occurred to me yet either. We are both in situations where we can wait it out. We aren't trying or wanting to sell our cars, haven't totaled the cars and don't have large maintenance bills coming up (although I need to replace tires sooner rather than later).

If a fix occurs that changes the car in a way to make it not the car I bought (and paid a premium for)... loss. If resale values do not go back to where they normally would have been... loss. If I'm forced to sell the car back and I'm exchanging a 2012 with low mileage and great condition for a used car with high mileage and/or worse condition... loss. I could go on but it is clear by your overall tone that it would be a waste of my time.

I've not sued VW and doubt I ever do... and the words "angry at VW" probably don't fit... but I think it is pretty idiotic to champion or not have bad feelings about a company that lied and fraudulently sold you a car (easily one of the largest ticket items for the vast majority of people).

Also, I don't consider a $500 card I can only use at a dealer and an expiration date to be worth $500 - because I'm still under warranty and will be well beyond the expiration date, don't care about VW "gear" and likely will use it on tires... tires that normally I'd buy elsewhere for far less.
 

beyondwind

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Thursday's hearing came as a VW spokesman in Germany said its management committee had hired a German law firm to advise it on liabilities the carmaker could face as a result of the diesel emissions scandal.
The new firm will advise on the liabilities VW could face under corporate law, the spokesman said, declining to name the firm.
Even at this time VW don't yet know their liabilities? It sounds like VW is looking into the possibilities of filing bankruptcy in the US, such that their liabilities became extremely complicated.
 

MichaelSNU

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Why do you care? What impact does it have on your life that not everyone looks at vehicles the same way as you do?
I get up for work at 0430 and often don't get home till after 7pm. I work 50+ hours/week, spend 4+ hours/day in the car, and I don't have time for a hobby, other than going to the gym. That's my treat to me...I get up at 0430 every morning and do that before work.
If I decide that I've had enough of a vehicle and I have the financial resources to get another one...I should be able to. I'm not saying that it's a brilliant financial decision to perpetually have a car payment...I'm just saying that if someone's vehicle is their one outlet/fun item in their day...I don't see what the problem is.
I agree! My family is getting bigger. I want - not need - an SUV (XC 90). Should I have thought about that before buying a sedan 4 years ago? Yes, but now because VW cheated I cannot trade the VW in and buy the XC90.
 

Jeta Life

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3) They are an enthusiast, in love with VW, and view thier vehicle as an extension of their soul. No comparable vehicles out there now, and none in the future. They have "I own a unicorn" syndrome.
that was great man, lol.

it's funny when I think of the 7 cars I have owned, each has their merits.
 

jhawklver

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Even at this time VW don't yet know their liabilities? It sounds like VW is looking into the possibilities of filing bankruptcy in the US, such that their liabilities became extremely complicated.
This makes sense, in terms of hiring lawyers. In addition to the DOJ & EPA fines, more and more lawsuits from car owners... more things are popping up. Legal issues for executives. Did anyone commit perjury? Add to that, investor lawsuits and the RICO news and yes. there are a lot of variables when it comes to liabilities so having a firm help them figure out best case, worst case, etc. makes sense.

There is also an attorney/client privilege (at least here, not sure about German law). So far we've been notified of leaked memo/info. What if there are many more documents that could prove who knew what, and when? Getting info on how to handle makes sense, especially since they've been bungling it so badly so far.
 

Gonehuckin

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I just did 210 mile round trip to go skiing, there were two of us in the car along with 6 pair of skis (we test skis) and 2 full boot bags and I averaged 42MPG. What car can I replace my JSW TDI with that I can do that?
Depends on if you drive in the snow. I grew up in the mts of Colorado and while I've driven two wheel drive pickups, rwd cars and my current jsw in horrendous conditions, I'd be rocking something with awd/4x4 and clearance in your scenario.
 

gearheadgrrrl

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Bankruptcy is a real possibility...

Even at this time VW don't yet know their liabilities? It sounds like VW is looking into the possibilities of filing bankruptcy in the US, such that their liabilities became extremely complicated.
Was doing some numbers today, thanks to Bloomberg's article that gives the profit margins for VW's brands. If VW has to do a buyback at MSRP, it'll cost at least 10 billion. VW brand sells around 350k cars a year in the US with a profit of around $850 per car= around 300 million a year in profit. That won't even cover the interest on a 10 billion dollar TDI buyout! Audi sells about 250k cars a year in the US at a profit of about $5k per car= around a billion a year in profit. Porsche sells about 50k cars in the US at a profit of around $23k per car= a bit over a billion dollars in profit.

So VW US which sold probably at least 80% of the affected TDIs makes only about 15% of the total profit of all the VAG brands in the US. Thus if the lawyers, EPA, and CARB push the settlement cost too high, VAG will probably be forced to sever VW US and send it off to bankruptcy court. That leaves the assembled vultures and regulators to pick over the thin bones in VW US, while VAG adds some low end models to the Audi range and it's business as usual. When it's all over, we'll be lucky if VW US is at least forced to set aside a few million to cover warranty claims and keep supplying spare parts for awhile.
 

Redgrom

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I just did 210 mile round trip to go skiing, there were two of us in the car along with 6 pair of skis (we test skis) and 2 full boot bags and I averaged 42MPG. What car can I replace my JSW TDI with that I can do that?

BMW 328xd and it's all wheel drive!!! It may be about $20k more though......
 

jhawklver

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Was doing some numbers today, thanks to Bloomberg's article that gives the profit margins for VW's brands. If VW has to do a buyback at MSRP, it'll cost at least 10 billion. VW brand sells around 350k cars a year in the US with a profit of around $850 per car= around 300 million a year in profit. That won't even cover the interest on a 10 billion dollar TDI buyout! Audi sells about 250k cars a year in the US at a profit of about $5k per car= around a billion a year in profit. Porsche sells about 50k cars in the US at a profit of around $23k per car= a bit over a billion dollars in profit.

So VW US which sold probably at least 80% of the affected TDIs makes only about 15% of the total profit of all the VAG brands in the US. Thus if the lawyers, EPA, and CARB push the settlement cost too high, VAG will probably be forced to sever VW US and send it off to bankruptcy court. That leaves the assembled vultures and regulators to pick over the thin bones in VW US, while VAG adds some low end models to the Audi range and it's business as usual. When it's all over, we'll be lucky if VW US is at least forced to set aside a few million to cover warranty claims and keep supplying spare parts for awhile.
A quick search for this article shows me it was written in 2014 and based on 2013 sales... and it isn't clear if those profit #'s are for all of VW, or just US sales. A true analysis to back up your claims of a US bankruptcy likelihood would look at cost to sell here (including marketing, overhead, etc.) vs. revenue here to get to profit in US. Are these average US sales profits? And, you left out very key bits of info in that article:

Indeed, Volkswagen’s high-end models carried the company last year, as demand waned for its more affordable cars and it poured research dollars into retooling its big sellers. The company R&D expenses climbed 23 percent last year, sucking up almost 6 percent of revenue. A euro that steadily gained on the dollar and a shaky Continental economy didn’t help results either. The company’s total sales for 2013 ticked up only 2.2 percent, to €197 billion ($275 billion at this morning’s exchange rate), while income slid 58 percent, to €9.1 billion

So you've cherry-picked an article, ignoring that weak dollar vs. euro impacted the numbers. More importantly than that though, you've ignored that the time period you've chosen to make a point also included large R&D investment (impacting the total profit numbers) to make your argument stronger. Also, you've used one year's profit numbers (if they are even accurate) to extrapolate 6+ years of models. If you spent the time to analyze units sold x average price... why do you ignore these important bits of info as they are critical to get to the actual correct number? I have feeling it is because it doesn't fit your already established opinions.
 
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beyondwind

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A quick search for this article shows me it was written in 2014 and based on 2013 sales... and it isn't clear if those profit #'s are for all of VW, or just US sales.
The numbers are actually inline with recent result, for Q1 2015 NA result, from:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp...ca-sales-and-operating-performance-in-focus/2

In effect, the automaker aims to improve operational return on sales for its passenger cars to at least 6% by 2018, up from 2.5% last year. Operating margins stood at below 2% at Volkswagen Passenger Vehicles this quarter. This division forms approximately 60% of Volkswagen’s vehicle deliveries, but contributes only 8% to the group’s valuation by our estimates, owing to the relatively lower price-points and narrow margins.
 

pkhoury

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We got hit in our truck around November, no one was hurt and both vehicles drivable, didn't bother to call police. I asked the insurance company if we should next time and they said it wasn't necessary, police can not determine who's at fault, that it was for the claims adjusters to sort out. Thought that was kind of interesting. Haven't asked the cops if that's the case or not.

Maybe where there's no criminal charge they don't get involved.
I think it also depends on the particular LEO and city. Some cities, when I lived in CA, would not come do an accident report unless there was an injury. Others, like Highway Patrol would sometimes do a report and sometimes not (one LEO claimed that if he did a report, he'd have to assign blame, and being I hit a coyote, the blame would've been assigned to me, even though he agreed I wouldn't have been at fault).

Totally the other guy's fault, for what it's worth. I think we threw him off by being one of the few people around that actually use their turn signals. :)
Sometimes I think turn signals are optional equipment on some vehicles, given the lack of usage.

Oh, and (at least in California) even if you are NOT at fault, the accident goes on your record and the insurance company can raise your rates.
Not on a comprehensive claim, at least in CA, although all claims still get reported to LexusNexus. Perhaps MichVW can comment further on this, since he works as an insurance appraiser.
 

jhawklver

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The numbers are actually inline with recent result, for Q1 2015 NA result, from:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp...ca-sales-and-operating-performance-in-focus/2

In effect, the automaker aims to improve operational return on sales for its passenger cars to at least 6% by 2018, up from 2.5% last year. Operating margins stood at below 2% at Volkswagen Passenger Vehicles this quarter. This division forms approximately 60% of Volkswagen’s vehicle deliveries, but contributes only 8% to the group’s valuation by our estimates, owing to the relatively lower price-points and narrow margins.
These numbers do not say what each car's profit is, and there is no breakdown by year so an average would be nice. The specific numbers she quoted are in the article from 2014. This more recent article also confirms premium car sales are more lucrative, which no one would argue as it makes sense. The numbers above do not specify US profit numbers, unless I'm wrong. Assuming they are though, in the article linked it states VAG will improve these numbers by curbing costs and increasing efficiencies. This is of course was written before the scandal hit. I think we've all seen an example of VW curbing costs so you have to wonder... what else was a cost saving measure?

From your linked article for VW specifically in the US market... first, they didn't capitalize on the SUV craze US consumers have. Second (and probably connected with my SUV point) they continued to spend tons on R&D on passenger cars that were not as popular in US as anticipated. Third, given their stated goals about being #1, research and development expense, and reputation on the line for diesel... VW decided to cheat the system and almost got away with it. Which brings us to today. VW was trying to sell more diesel, and the majority of those were VW diesels. How much they make on a porsche really has no relevance to the 500k+ VW they fraudulently sold in this country.

Again though and to prove a point.. a critical part of the article you posted states:

The Volkswagen Passenger Vehicles division continues to struggle, due to lower volume sales (volumes declined 1.3% year-over-year in Q1), and high research and development costs incurred by the group to push for innovation at the ailing vehicle division.


Is R&D included in the margins we're discussing? If VW is investing larger than normal in R&D it impacts profits. It seems they are in the US... which tells me that they view this as a critical growth opportunity/market. They were investing now for it to pay off in the future.That would suggest bankruptcy as a less than ideal option. An option that may not fit the blogger's agenda/opinion.

Don't mind me though... I'm probably a whiner in her opinion because I want VW to be accountable for their actions and not be personally impacted in a negative manner... so I'm greedy.
 
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I800C0LLECT

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Agreed. I am in a similar situation. Son was born in July and things changed. If I could have traded either of my cars 4 months ago without taking a bath, I would have. Not everyone is comfortable "making due" with a compact car because of a ridiculous scandal.

Those that choose to drive a vehicle for 10+ years, that's great. I also need to trade in my 2 door, regular cab, short box chevy silverado. Unless of course someone here can convince me how I can turn it into a family vehicle capable of accommodating 4 people...2 in car seats.

NEED or WANT? You don't need to do anything. You aren't a victim because you WANT something different. Sometimes life isn't fair and what we want requires a different approach from what we had hoped. It doesn't make us victims.


I think those that are preaching about "no buy back", "eventual fixes", or "drive more worry less" fall into three camps:

1) They are retired and just need transportation that is "fun to drive" and gets good mpg. They like their TDI and their life situation does not dictate what they drive, the vehicles size or capability. Or....

2) They have deleted all the emissions equipment on their car, dumped a ton of money into tunes, down pipe, exhaust, turbo, tint, wheels, suspension etc and are deathly afraid they will lose their A** on a buyback.

3) They are an enthusiast, in love with VW, and view thier vehicle as an extension of their soul. No comparable vehicles out there now, and none in the future. They have "I own a unicorn" syndrome.

4) They are attempting to be responsible consumers without hopes and wishes for self serving "reciprocity".

Why do you have to presume there's selfish motivation behind anybody who isn't hoping the EPA takes them to the cleaners? At some point our culture has taken a turn for the worst and many believe we should make millions over spilt coffee. I'm not one of them. I absolutely believe in culpability. The constant victimizing for personal gain has gotten completely out of control.

...To the point that every day Americans are more concerned about legalese than doing what's right. Dishonesty is rampant. It's why insurance rates and everything under the sun is out of control. You can't even attempt to do what's right these days without fear of reprisal for owning up to your actions.

The law isn't about right vs wrong. That's why we must be careful about interpretation and spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. The people who want to extort VW over this are just as wrong as the decision makers who helped create the problem.
 
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IFRCFI

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3) They are an enthusiast, in love with VW, and view thier vehicle as an extension of their soul. No comparable vehicles out there now, and none in the future. They have "I own a unicorn" syndrome.

The "3 pedal, proper manual" crowd. My car is rare, in demand, and doesn't depreciate. You are obviously a noob and can't see its value....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
4) They are attempting to be responsible consumers without hopes and wishes for self serving "reciprocity".

Why do you have to presume there's selfish motivation behind anybody who isn't hoping the EPA takes them to the cleaners? At some point our culture has taken a turn for the worst and many believe we should make millions over spilt coffee. I'm not one of them. I absolutely believe in culpability. The constant victimizing for personal gain has gotten completely out of control.

...To the point that every day Americans are more concerned about legalese than doing what's right. Dishonesty is rampant. It's why insurance rates and everything under the sun is out of control. You can't even attempt to do what's right these days without fear of reprisal for owning up to your actions.

The law isn't about right vs wrong. That's why we must be careful about interpretation and spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. The people who want to extort VW over this are just as wrong as the decision makers who helped create the problem.
Excellent post!
 

Jeta Life

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All I could say is what a mess Volkswagen has gotten itself into. In the beginning I downplayed the NOx cheat as merely a drop in the bucket when it comes to pollution. But when I read about how Volkswagen's own dealers were dissatisfied with the product line, again VW shoots itself.
VW was number 1 in the world for a few months. Clearly it was not because of U.S. Sales figures, driven more by growth in other countries like China, Russia and India.
VW banked on TDI and lost here. Even the new Passats did not sell as many as they would have liked, but still did well and have AdBlue, something they should of either of given all models since 2009, and now must pay dearly.
Still hard to believe 325,000 Gen 1s could have such a huge effect. It's not that many cars. VW has better come up with some drastic plan if they are to save face with U.S. consumers. I doubt they would want this to effect Audi and Porsche. VW has to do something drastic at this point they only have one month left. They must act.
 

MichVW

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4) They are attempting to be responsible consumers without hopes and wishes for self serving "reciprocity".

Why do you have to presume there's selfish motivation behind anybody who isn't hoping the EPA takes them to the cleaners? At some point our culture has taken a turn for the worst and many believe we should make millions over spilt coffee. I'm not one of them. I absolutely believe in culpability. The constant victimizing for personal gain has gotten completely out of control.

...To the point that every day Americans are more concerned about legalese than doing what's right. Dishonesty is rampant. It's why insurance rates and everything under the sun is out of control. You can't even attempt to do what's right these days without fear of reprisal for owning up to your actions.

The law isn't about right vs wrong. That's why we must be careful about interpretation and spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. The people who want to extort VW over this are just as wrong as the decision makers who helped create the problem.
NEED! (Truck is sitting in my driveway collecting dust....It gets driven once or twice a month. 2010 with 31,000 miles)


I am not trying to extort anyone. All of you guys that are trying to make VW out as the victim here really need to get your head examined. And as I mentioned, generally fall into one of those three categories.

I have said may times earlier in this thread that I expect nothing more than KBB Private Party in Excellent condition for both my vehicles. I will suck up the inconvenience of not being able to sell/trade when I WANTED TO. I just want a fair shake and the ability to move on. Pre-scandal value is the highest I would have received from a private sale or Trade in. That is all I want.
 
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