Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[KBR]

I "was" a happy VW owner

I'm on TDI Jetta's #5 and #6 both 2015. One w/25K and the other w/9.5K miles. I have been extremely happy with my vehicles and always talked highly about them when asked. I just don't know what to say now. Hopefully the fix doesn't rob us of horsepower and/or MPG, but I think if they could have met EPA restrictions and had the specs we have from the beginning they would have.

 

[Aquaticmind]

Lost in all of this is the fact that the tests were done at WVU. I'm surprised this hasn't been a bigger issue on this forum.

UVW tipped off the EPA which then conducted its own test. If I remember correctly, UVW unoriginal used the VW because they thought it would pass the test (unrelated project to issue) and when it didn't they did a more focused test. Then passed the info on the EPA which conducted their own test and come to the same conclusion.

 

[raybo]

I'm not disappointed with Volkswagen as much as I'm disappointed with the EPA.
I can't believe they're going after TDIs, and completely ignoring all the giant gas guzzling pickups and SUVs on the road, that create way more CO2 and pollution every day than all of the TDIs combined do in a year.
If they actually cared about clean air, they would start with the biggest polluters first. They should be happy that I drive a TDI and not a giant redneck truck.

Regardless of what pickups and SUVs are spewing - VW led us to believe that we were driving clean cars...instead, it turns out we were adding to smog.
If you care about the environment, lobby the EPA to do something about the vehicles you mentioned...I thought I was doing my part by buying a "clean" 2010 JSW, foregoing the much cleaner and cheaper (to buy and maintain) Prius...

 

[vwUMO]

Time to buy more stock. The insanity continues.

 

[VodkanDiesel]

You realize that VW cheated on the emission testing and I expect a government agency to hold a mulit-national corporation to their word. Yes a V8 engine makes more CO2 but probably less NOx and more importantly, if the V8 honestly pass the emission test then it is fine, it is the law that needs to change.

The EPA has been working with VW for over a year to fix the issue, don't blame the EPA for holding VW's feet to fire over for intentionally cheating. This is VW's screwup, not the EPA's. VW lied to it's customers and of course the EPA.

EPA needs to lay off Volkswagen and go after the real polluters. TDIs are still way cleaner than most of the cars on the road.

 

[meerschm]

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content..._AG_has_issued_the_following_information.html

 

[bhtooefr]

Honestly? I'd almost say to short VOW, given the scale of this. (I'm faaaaar from an investment professional, but the bleeding is getting far worse now.)

I think they'll survive, but I also think they're going to lose a crapton of value.

 

[imurrx]

Maybe this has been explained in the thread already, but im confused as to why this isnt an easy fix? If the cars engine management program can pass the EPA standards, why cant that just be reflashed as the primary program with all the emissions systems working full time?
Figures the only time i buy a new car in my life is one week before a massive emissions scandal

The fear is that for TDI to pass emissions it would not produce the same HP, torque, and MPG. It will also produce more soot that will clog the diesel particulate filer and turbo in short time.

Because the TDI in question use a NOx trap (which is ineffective) you need a urea system installed to burn off the NOx. Unfortunately retrofitting them may be impractical and also ineffective. Most engines that use urea are six cylinders or 3 litres that have higher exhaust temperature. From what I gather in this thread the 2.0 liter engine will not burn hit enough.

 

[Aquaticmind]

There ya go EPA!! If your interest in cleaner air is for real and not total BS like we all know it is, then mandate this fuel.

Oh wait... the oil industry woudnt like that one wittle bit would they....

Do you really want to the EPA to so specifically mandate what type of fuel you used? What would the cost be.

The anti-EPA crowd has some unreal expectations about the way the government work. One side say they are picking on TDI's but not going after V8's that are passing current law, the other side says they are too strict on their "impossible" limits (debatable, but BMW passed), and another side says the EPA is just motivated by all they money they will make from the fines (which will go into the treasury and EPA won't see a dime of).

There is simply no way for the EPA to not be at fault in some people's eyes. Geeze.

 

[Aquaticmind]

Because the EPA is more concerned with making money off of fines and looking relevant while doing so.

The EPA won't make money off the fines, it goes into the treasury. Before you just bash the EPA and cast them as the bad guy here, you should probably try to understand how they work and how they have worked with VW for over a year to come into compliance.

They don't make money off the fines.

 

[GoBucks!]

VW wont buy anything back. You will get a $200 gift card.

Think that's a joke? It isnt. The government isnt going to help you, class action lawyers are in it for THEIR cut.

Anything else is grandeur. You'll take the fix (or like me, won't accept a detune) and you'll be given a $50-200 apology gift card, and be sent on your way.

And there wont be a thing you can do about it, thats profitable, or worth the effort.

I'll bet you a $1000 we get more than a $200 card Mr. Blowhard.

 

[lateapex]

Bloomberg reporting -- based, in turn, on breaking news from Tagesspiegel -- that Martin Winterkorn, Volkswagen AG CEO will resign and be replaced by, well, one of his direct reports, Matthias Mueller, Porsche CEO on Sep. 25th.

Ironically, Winterkorn was just days away (also the 25th) from receiving a routine contract extension.

It could've been worse... only 11 million diesel cars affected as of now, out of 55 million VW cars sold worldwide during the 7-year period. Dodged a bullet.

 

[VodkanDiesel]

Pure speculation, not fact.

TDI's will become even more sought after. I refuse to drive a slow, butt ugly prius. Give me my TDI.

I'm sticking with TDI at least for the next 5 years until Tesla Model 3's become available and more charging stations pop up.

I'll drive anything that keeps money from going to oil companies. Anything except a Prius.

 

[Borsig]

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content..._AG_has_issued_the_following_information.html

This would lead you to believe that only EA 189 and not EA 288 engines (2015+) are effected.

 

[rhino4evr]

what a mess.

 

[imurrx]

This is world wide. Not for just the US.

It looks like the number is more like 6500-7000 per car, world wide.

No one is buying back your car.

I would take that and get my tune in due time and a future car deposit.

 

[Borsig]

I'll bet you a $1000 we get more than a $200 card Mr. Blowhard.

Blowhard? LOL

Arent you a pretentious little fellow.

You must not know VW very well.

 

[Borsig]

I would take that and get my tune in due time and a future car deposit.

That money isnt for you. Its for fines, and dealers who will be billing hours to detune your car, and also advertising campaigns (image).

 

[Aquaticmind]

Not sure if that refers to me or not, but there are no facts to debate in the EPA getting slapped down 9-0 @ SCOTUS in the Sackett case. I say good; they got a dose of their own medicine.

Actually discussed the Sackett case early. It has no bearing here, but the 9-0 ruling was about the arbitration process for appealing decisions in a judicial setting (and was probably the right decision). Scakett was still filling in a wetland protected under the Clean Water Act.

 

[bhtooefr]

This would lead you to believe that only EA 189 and not EA 288 engines (2015+) are effected.

Yeah, I call bull**** on that claim of VW's.

 

[raybo]

This would lead you to believe that only EA 189 and not EA 288 engines (2015+) are effected.

Perhaps that is true in Europe but not in the US...read it again...

 

[GoBucks!]

Correlation does not equal causation.

Every time the EPA and others have been credited with improvements, those improvements had already begun being implemented before EPA action. DDT, ozone, etc... they all were improving before EPA action. You cannot attribute those things to the EPA. That is a fallacy.

No, correlation does not equal causation. Theory gives you causation. And your theory that industry was, on their own, cleaning up their act is weaker than my theory that industry was trying to preempt the EPA action. The presence of the EPA is the critical factor.

 

[saucer]

FWIW: My 2010 had issues with the DPF just a few months after purchase, leading to 8 trips to the dealership over the next year. This qualified my car as a lemon, and even though this law varies state-to-state, I contacted a nationwide, dot com law firm that specialized in Lemon Law.

The firm gathered my personal info, the documents regarding the repairs, and about a month later mailed me a check for $3500. (They kept $2000.)

I don't know how this case will differ from that, but it just proves that people CAN sue for more. I'm sure VW will offer some gift card/trade-in bonus BS, but if you're angry enough about this, you might be able to go for a larger settlement.

My fear - and I'd have to research this - is that a successful class-action suit will trump any further litigation, under some sort of Double Jeopardy protection...

 

[meerschm]

This would lead you to believe that only EA 189 and not EA 288 engines (2015+) are effected.

Could be.

if so, then the hold on the 2015 and 2016 could come off as soon as VW can convince the EPA they have not hid another bomb in the software.

temporary release could be done pending a repeat of independent over the road validation of the emissions on the new cars.

regardless of the EPA, VW will want to be "DAM SURE" (vision the constable with the wooden hand in Young Frankenstein) that the switch is missing from the EA288s

 

[evoblade]

Is there some critical failure in the DSG too? I mean.. ***!?

Well, there is the issue of the Dual Mass Flywheel which will eventually disintegate...

 

[Borsig]

Yeah, I call bull**** on that claim of VW's.

Note I said "lead you to believe"

That being said, at least the theory that the software was "copied over" as part of the base code source into the EA288 and doesnt really effect that engine is somewhat plausible.

I dont recall an EA288 being tested on road by WVU/ CARB?

I also think its plausible that the switch was a stop gap until EA288 / Urea.

It IS plausible.

 

[Aquaticmind]

Actually the real lie is the bullshirt that CARB and the EPA are selling with their claims of the rules VW broke have a single thing with giving us cleaner air!

VW broke the rules and lied to consumers and the EPA, the only facts that really matter.

 

[bring]

only ones who make out in a class action lawsuit are the lawyers

 

[raybo]

Actually the real lie is the bullshirt that CARB and the EPA are selling with their claims of the rules VW broke have a single thing with giving us cleaner air!
The real facts are that these current ridiculous emissions requirements on non-existent since 1986 MY light duty auto diesels are these rules do nothing to impact actual air quality anywhere in the US today.....
How could they when the real polluters today, loophole SUVs and puckups are sold in numbers just last month higher than all of the years these have been offered!
No clean air will ever be gotten through the over regulation of non-existent for three decades now light duty diesel autos......This is not about cleaning up any air, but is about a useless to us all feel good action taken against the only vehicle currently which allows for less fuel to used while driving in the real world at real world today speeds.......
I hope this fact makes the news, how stupid it is to go after non-existent vehicles which sip fuel making the US less dependent on foreign oil....
While the biggest polluters(loophole class vehicles) are given another decade at least to waste fuel at unbelievable still legal levels while spewing real pollution (unmeasured or regulated ultra fine PMs which stay aerosolized for months. Ultra fine PMs which cause real health issues and deaths!
Dumb, dumb, dumb..........

Regardless of what pickups and SUVs are spewing - VW led us to believe that we were driving clean cars...instead, it turns out we were adding to smog.
If you care about the environment, lobby the EPA to do something about the vehicles you mentioned...I thought I was doing my part by buying a "clean" 2010 JSW, foregoing the much cleaner and cheaper (to buy and maintain) Prius...

 

[Borsig]

Two class actions have already been filed. I have no idea how multiple class actions for the same thing work, unless each class action is a seperate set of consumers, and you can only be a part of one.

That would lead one to believe that you could still sue on your own, but it doesnt really mean you might see more damages.

The point of a class action is to not clog the courts, not to get the consumer a better settlement.