Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[Donkeyshins]

How about free Malone Stage 1.5 tunes for everybody?

-D

(I'd love to see NOx numbers on Malone software...)

 

[VeeDubTDI]

So to simplify it for myself, answer me this. Does vehicle A that burns less fuel to go a set distance with some emissions controls pollute more than vehicle B that burns more fuel to go that same distance but has more emissions control.

If we're just talking about NOx, a 2012 Jetta TDI produces more NOx per mile than a modern gas 6.2L Chevrolet Suburban.

 

[romad]

GM lied and people died.
Tanaka lied and people died.
VW lied and nobody died.

 

[peterdaniel]

Has anyone ( yes, I will ask again until someone answers me) figured out what the emissions would be if you ran renewable fuel such as HPR? Or even biodiesel? How come the EPA which is soooooooooooooooooooo concerned with our health, doesn't push these fuels?

Because the EPA is more concerned with making money off of fines and looking relevant while doing so.

Thats why.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

GM lied and people died.
Tanaka lied and people died.
VW lied and nobody died.

This would be a much bigger deal if people were dead.

 

[rotarykid]

Unregulated gasoline engine'd produced today Ultra Fine PMs the real pollution issue

Can you provide some examples of the "loophole class vehicles?"

Most trucks and SUVs under the "2500" 3/4 ton threshold must conform to the exact same standard as our TDIs: Tier 2 Bin 5. Above that would be Tier 2 Bin 8, which is still pretty strict.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/weights.htm

Some of these "loophole class vehicles" that you're referring to might be T2B8, but they are not unregulated or "spewing real pollution," as you say. Regardless, the noncompliant TDIs don't fall anywhere inside of the Tier 2 system for NOx.

The problem with all of your stats right now is the fact that Ultra Fine PMs on gasoline powered engines are neither measured or regulated today.....

The EPA is well aware of this being a real problem which needs solution at some point. A study a decade or so back in the front range of colorado showed the main producer in the auto fleet then and now are loophole class offerings with large displacement gasoline engines.....

Ultra fine PMs which these today are not measured or regulated....

A recent EPA study showed Ultra fine PMs to be the largest not dealt with issue in our vehicle fleet, gasoline engine produced. And prius owners are not immune to this problem, all of today's offerings with atkinson cycle type engines and direct injection type gasoline are the biggest producers of this type of pollution. A recent study showed direct injection engines produced unregulated diesel pre-1990 era amounts of PMs in specific conditions while in warmup settings...

Diesels with all their currently required crap are far cleaner Ultra fine PM wise than just about anything else on the road...Don't believe?? find a current TDI-CR take a round in the exhaust pipe with your finger??? Then do that on your prius......YOu will very quickly get the idea of what many are missing here.......

The only real fix in the coming future is to require PM traps on all vehicles at some point just like the current diesel offering are forced have....

But that requires nationwide use of only Ultra Low Sulphur Gasoline with levels as low as are required/available in D2 today.....!$$$$$$$$$$!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Has anyone ( yes, I will ask again until someone answers me) figured out what the emissions would be if you ran renewable fuel such as HPR? Or even biodiesel? How come the EPA which is soooooooooooooooooooo concerned with our health, doesn't push these fuels?

Because the EPA is more concerned with making money off of fines and looking relevant while doing so.

Thats why.

Searched Google for all of 10 seconds and came up with this: http://dieselhpr.com/assets/media/DieselHPR_Fuel_Specification.pdf

 

[Sunnyb]

How about free Malone Stage 1.5 tunes for everybody?

-D

(I'd love to see NOx numbers on Malone software...)

I'm more than happy with my car and I will be avoiding the dealer if I can. I have 32K left until I get a tune

 

[Mizzeaux]

Has anyone ( yes, I will ask again until someone answers me) figured out what the emissions would be if you ran renewable fuel such as HPR? Or even biodiesel? How come the EPA which is soooooooooooooooooooo concerned with our health, doesn't push these fuels?

Because the EPA is more concerned with making money off of fines and looking relevant while doing so.

Thats why.

I read an article a while ago that stated that from an environmental perspective, a TDI would have to run 50% biodiesel to match the environmental attributes of a hybrid. That was back when people thought the EPA numbers were real, no clue what percentage biodiesel it would have to run with this new information 140% biodiesel?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

The problem with all of your stats right now is the fact that Ultra Fine PMs on gasoline powered engines are neither measured or regulated today.....
The EPA is well aware of this being a real problem which needs solution at some point. A study a decade or so back in the front range of colorado showed the main producer in the auto fleet then and now are loophole class offerings with large displacement gasoline engines.....
Ultra fine PMs which these today are not measured or regulated....
A recent EPA study showed Ultra fine PMs to be the largest not dealt with issue in our vehicle fleet, gasoline engine produced. And prius owners are not immune to this problem, all of today's offerings with atkinson cycle type engines and direct injection type gasoline are the biggest producers of this type of pollution. A recent study showed direct injection engines produced unregulated diesel pre-1990 era amounts of PMs in specific conditions while in warmup settings...
Diesels with all their currently required crap are far cleaner Ultra fine PM wise than just about anything else on the road...Don't believe?? find a current TDI-CR take a round in the exhaust pipe with your finger??? Then do that on your prius......YOu will very quickly get the idea of what many are missing here.......
The only real fix in the coming future is to require PM traps on all vehicles at some point just like the current diesel offering are forced have....
But that requires nationwide use of only Ultra Low Sulphur Gasoline with levels as low as are required/available in D2 today.....!$$$$$$$$$$!

Ultra fine PMs are an issue, but they aren't a "loophole class" issue, as DI gassers of all makes and models are guilty of emitting ultra fine PM.

Just wait, gassers will get their time for particulate filters and SCR. It's coming.

 

[gene r]

Totally stinks! I have been telling my 5 year old daughter that our TDI does not pollute as much as most other cars. Now I am not sure and feel sick to my stomach to be duped like this. What is the resale value of my 2009 TDI Jetta Wagon now? ***! VW I want my money back!

I feel exactly the way you do. We are a Tesla Model S (amazing car) and 2010 Jetta TDI (ok car) family. We were waiting to replace the TDI with a Tesla Model 3. This morning I decided to stop waiting on the Model 3, we just ordered a CPO Model S. I feel cheated and completely done with VW. Hell, I used to be a VW mechanic! Having been a pro mechanic, I understand the absurdity of ICE design and the elegant simplicity of EV's. I think I'll park the TDI and wait and see, if there is a buy back, I am sure it will yield much more money than trying to sell a TDI at this time.

 

[NYC-TDI]

Because the EPA is more concerned with making money off of fines and looking relevant while doing so.

The EPA does not make any money off of fines. Any fines collected go to the treasury. They do not operate like civil forfeiture.

 

[gene r]

So, about 2 O'clock this afternoon I said to myself, "I gotta visit the local VW dealer and see what the climate is like". I drove down to my dealer where I had bought a Jetta TDI in 2010 which my son still has as we wait for Tesla Model 3. Of course, the salesmen came out to look at my Model S as they always do. These are very nice people at Ventura VW, they always have been. I suggested to the employees I spoke to that the owners of the dealership have been ripped off to an even greater degree than the consumers, the employees fully agreed with me. Think about it...the dealership built a building, supplied service, employees, advertising etc, at huge cost all the while under the assumption VW would supply legal cars.

I asked if they had recent buyers of TDI's asking for their money back. They told me that nobody has made this request. They told me two people came in hoping to get a TDI while they still could. Of course, they could not. But both these customers put down deposits for if/when the TDI would be available again. My guess these customers have not thought it through. Even if they can get a TDI, it likely will not be the nice driving car they test drove.

Years ago, I was a pro mechanic for VW, Audi, Porsche and even Renault, Citroen, and Peugeot. Most here and on other forums are concerned with lower MPG and performance should the software simply be switched on "emissions mode" permanently. I think there is the grave possibility that the TDI could self destruct within 100 miles under such conditions. Should "emissions mode" result in any substantial change in mixture, meaning more lean or more rich, you could be looking at severe head temps or motor oil dilution. Either would destroy the engine rapidly.

Me, I hope VW has to buy my TDI back at full purchase price as at no time had I ever received the car that I had paid my money for. To only refund me $3500 for the diesel option would not suffice.

They way I see it, besides the EPA, Jerry Brown, and the Justice Department on VW's butts, the class action lawsuits will be not just from consumers, but you will have stock holders who lost 20% today and you will actually have the VW dealerships as well.

 

[tadawson]

But they are GERMAN union labor, not incompetent UAW slugs.

What what? You are not in love with the Unskilled Apathetic Workforce?

- Tim

 

[LogicBomb]

I'll be at the dealership early tomorrow morning as my Passats HVAC is pumping out coolant laced air. It'll be interesting to see the atmosphere in Huntington Beach.

 

[rotarykid]

Ultra fine PMs are an issue, but they aren't a "loophole class" issue, as DI gassers of all makes and models are guilty of emitting ultra fine PM.
Just wait, gassers will get their time for particulate filters and SCR. It's coming.

Pickups, even the light duty ones still exist in a different emissions and CAFE class from autos.

My point from the first post has been, 3,000,000+ pickups and SUVs which exist in this class without the same CAFE or emissions rules are the most likely to have the worst of these large displacement gasoline powered Ultra Fine PM spewers......

If this last weeks actions were really about giving us cleaner air, 482,000 light duty diesel autos which sip fuel at unprecedented or surpassed by any other offering's levels that put out NOx at levels which are not a proved real issue across 98 % of the US. While there is real data today saying NOx is something which has been show to break up smog across the US would be a non-issue issue........

But if giving us cleaner air was the real goal here on the top of that agenda of giving us real cleaner air would right now requiring we have the gasoline required to allow for gasoline powered fleet wide use of PM traps.....

But we all here at least, no cleaner air is not a real priority yet in the US.........We really need to stop scapegoating non-existent in any real numbers since 1986 MY light duty diesel autos.......

And move focus onto the real pollution issue today.....Unregulated nor measured today Ultra Fine PMs spewed from our mainly today, 99.5 % gasoline powered vehicle fleet!

 

[10000ft]

So, about 2 O'clock this afternoon I said to myself, "I gotta visit the local VW dealer and see what the climate is like". I drove down to my dealer where I had bought a Jetta TDI in 2010 which my son still has as we wait for Tesla Model 3. Of course, the salesmen came out to look at my Model S as they always do. These are very nice people at Ventura VW, they always have been. I suggested to the employees I spoke to that the owners of the dealership have been ripped off to an even greater degree than the consumers, the employees fully agreed with me. Think about it...the dealership built a building, supplied service, employees, advertising etc, at huge cost all the while under the assumption VW would supply legal cars.

I asked if they had recent buyers of TDI's asking for their money back. They told me that nobody has made this request. They told me two people came in hoping to get a TDI while they still could. Of course, they could not. But both these customers put down deposits for if/when the TDI would be available again. My guess these customers have not thought it through. Even if they can get a TDI, it likely will not be the nice driving car they test drove.

Years ago, I was a pro mechanic for VW, Audi, Porsche and even Renault, Citroen, and Peugeot. Most here and on other forums are concerned with lower MPG and performance should the software simply be switched on "emissions mode" permanently. I think there is the grave possibility that the TDI could self destruct within 100 miles under such conditions. Should "emissions mode" result in any substantial change in mixture, meaning more lean or more rich, you could be looking at severe head temps or motor oil dilution. Either would destroy the engine rapidly.

Me, I hope VW has to buy my TDI back at full purchase price as at no time had I ever received the car that I had paid my money for. To only refund me $3500 for the diesel option would not suffice.

They way I see it, besides the EPA, Jerry Brown, and the Justice Department on VW's butts, the class action lawsuits will be not just from consumers, but you will have stock holders who lost 20% today and you will actually have the VW dealerships as well.

I went to Ventura VW Last Friday and asked for my money back. I understand that they are trying to be confident in the face of an epic disaster and that the dealership is in a bad place too. Just wanted to say that I did ask. As I expected, they said no. I'm one month into this deal, first new car. All I can do is wait and hope for the best. I went from feeling like a million bucks to be being embarrassed to drive.

 

[peterdaniel]

Searched Google for all of 10 seconds and came up with this: http://dieselhpr.com/assets/media/DieselHPR_Fuel_Specification.pdf

There ya go EPA!! If your interest in cleaner air is for real and not total BS like we all know it is, then mandate this fuel.

Oh wait... the oil industry woudnt like that one wittle bit would they....

 

[MichlBec]

Volkswagen´s apology by US President and CEO, Michael Horn

For everybody's amusement.

https://youtu.be/dyiTwCuCRqg

 

[wiley264]

For everybody's amusement.
https://youtu.be/dyiTwCuCRqg

The one thing I have found somewhat comforting about this scandal so far is that VW's statements have been uniformly apologetic to everyone involved. They haven't tried to sugarcoat anything.

I view them with the same skepticism I view all large corporations with (even the one I work for), but I do have some hope that there was a small team somewhere stalling the EPA for a year, but now that upper management is involved, they're being genuine in their statements that this needs to be made right (starting with firing said small team).

Maybe I'm just too optimistic. Time will tell.

(although VW, if you happen to be reading this, one way to make it more-than-right would be to swap my engine with an appropriately equipped GTD )

 

[transmit]

How strict California rules on emissions led to lower cancer risk

Living in California I applaud the tremendous success the EPA has had in cleaning up our air since the 70's. On Monday, there was more good news. The Air Resources Board reported that Californians' cancer risk from toxic air pollution has declined 76% over more than two decades, a trend the agency attributes to the state's array of regulations targeting everything from diesel trucks to dry cleaners.

http://www.latimes.com/science/la-me-0922-pollution-risk-20150922-story.html

 

[VodkanDiesel]

Been away from the site for a while and came back to check on the recall. Wow, the sky is falling. Everyone take a deep breath. For now I am putting faith in our overly litigious country and that VW's future in N. America heavily relies on making this right for the consumer.

However; just in case, I'm saving my current ECU image so I can always go back. And, I expect there will be many work-arounds and "Stage .5" type tunes available in the future. It's still the same car I bought, and any ECU "fix" can be undone. I am personally not too concerned and anyone who understands this paragraph shouldn't be either, IMO.

To me the HPFP issue on previous models was much more concerning. There was nothing you can do about that but hope.

What are you using to save your ECU image? I want to do the same, in case a VW dealership ever touches my ECU without my permission.

 

[jimbo1mcm]

So what's the fix?

For my 2015 TDI with DEF and SCR aboard, will it just be a more frequent cycle? For older vehicles will it be more of a problem? VW needs to really step up here. Wonder if some tuner can modify the software to get the test passed and let us know what is involved.

 

[maybe368]

Yeah, that's pretty good too.

How about TDI=The Dumb Investment...Mark

 

[DriverJon]

Haven't been reading this for a day or so... so I don't know if it's 15-20 pages back... but Holy Cr#p, did the stock price take a hit today!!!

Talk about may be liable for $18 Billion as a worst case fine situation, they just took that in their shorts on the stock fall!! Coming back very slightly in the first few hrs of Tues, but Man that's plain ugly...

 

[Jeta Life]

AdBlue modification: Is it possible ?

I believe Volkswagen is a positive company. Too much negativity on these posts. Come on guys give VW a break.
Let's all try to imagine and envision a win-win situation because that's what VW engineers are doing. I hope it is possible but I am no engineer.
Is there a way VW can make this right for everyone ? Is it even possible to improve these cars with the modification of an AdBlue system/tank set up by eliminating the spare tire well ?
Is this mechanically possible and it will not hurt performance nor fuel economy. Will it cure the NOX problem ?
It will be an expensive fix for VW but that seems like the only WIN WIN situation as I see it. Can it be done ? You know VW engineers are smart and are working on a solution. Why don't we offer constructive advice instead of bashing them. They're a company with people, stop treating them like criminals. We have to get over the past and move on guys, come on now, I know you guys are able to see and find a solution and help VW.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

The engineers were not at fault, http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...istory-of-sweating-the-details-now-haunts-him .

And yes, our cars are worthless at this point.

 

[NAZ TDI]

I say save your anger and bitterness for the despicable EPA and their minions! They've already over done the emissions requirements to where we're almost looking at 40 times (gasp!) zero. Nobody touches my TDI!

 

[Jeta Life]

This guy knows what he's talking about

NOx is monitored 100% of the time at the catalyst, so there is NO WAY any TDI is out of compliance.

SCR (AdBlue Injector) is NOT activated 100% of the time, ONLY when the NOx sensor detects NOx output that is rising due to the EGR, Injection timing, and other systems not being able to reduce them in the combustion bowl.

VW Did not lie to the EPA, and this "Lie" is being taken out of context to further an EPA/CARB objective.

FWIW, you can monitor your NOx output while driving with VCDS in real time, and this range is almost always 0 regardless of load.

Pre-SCR systems use a filter that traps and oxidizes the NOx output. When the system detects rising levels it initiates a re-gen where fuel is injected post ignition to elevate NOx trap temperatures above the regen threshold.

Like I said, this is a Blackmail on the part of the EPA, VW will issue a recall, which will effectively do nothing to the car or how it performs. The software change will simply eliminate the "TEST" cycle so it cannot be interpreted to be thwarting emissions.

Its laughable to think some VWOA clown knows anything about a TDI, hell they can't even tell you how a TDI works much less how the software functions!

Do the voluntary recall, and get those 2016's rolling thru port... Moving on nothing else to see here.

If I were VW I would hire you. Fix and move on. A great post with helpful information. I think this guy's prediction will hopefully come true.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

I don't see why the EPA has to be tougher than its European counterparts, but that doesn't justify the deliberate con job, http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34322016 .

VW has to be more transparent.

And yes, the EPA should stop pushing for impossible goals.