Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[diesel55]

My 2013 Passat passed CA emissions test only last month.

Should I assume that the Passat was running in "test mode" to pass that test?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

It is a scary thought, and Borsig expressed a similar concern. But, there are a couple things that point to the sky maybe not having to fall so much.
1. Could the car just be programmed to use more AdBlue? Maybe the reason they had the "Defeat Device" is just so people wouldn't complain about having to refill DEF 2x as often.
2. What about the 3.0 L diesels? (A6, Touareg, etc). Those are apparently fine? and they make plenty of power and do well on fuel efficiency.

1. I believe you're right on the money with this. We were expecting a 10,000 mile range on the DEF tank, but it's more like 15,000 - 20,000 miles, depending on driving routine.

2. No word on these yet. If they do get looked into, it wouldn't surprise me to find a similar elephant in that room. I'm sure we'll find out at some point whether the V6 is in compliance or not.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

My 2013 Passat passed CA emissions test only last month.

Should I assume that the Passat was running in "test mode" to pass that test?

Was your car tested on a dynamometer? Or was it just plugged into the computer to check for emissions faults?

 

[learningneverends]

This will be my first and last diesel car. I am transitioning to electric. I already lease a Spark EV and I drive it more than I do my diesel. It is more economical for me too.

At 2.56$ per gallon at my filling station, diesel has never been cheaper in SoCal. When I drive my TDI to and from work I average 47 mpg. Doing the math, 1000 miles cost me 54.30$.

By contrast driving my EV averages 5.5 miles per kWh. Every kWh costs me 0.11 cents. Doing the math, driving for 1000 miles costs me $20.

So despite the cheapness of diesel, it is still 34.30$ cheaper to commute to and from work with my EV.

Once the 200 mile Chevy Bolt is available in 2017, I will use my TDI as a downpayment towards the Bolt. If that is not available, then I will get the Chevy Volt. Its 53 mile range is perfect for my to and from work round trip.

But Full EV is my preference. It is economical, its cost of maintenance is 1/3 less than an ICE car, and in states where energy is produced from Natural Gas and renewable like CA it is less polluting. In CA, you will eventually have to get an electric car. so might as well start now.

Your case is compelling... for you. My car does long trips and I like getting 600 miles out of a fill up. Stopping to charge every 100 miles would be out of the question. I would think about electric for around town though. When the president flies electric I will drive electric I have said.

 

[andyrooski17]

1. I believe you're right on the money with this. We were expecting a 10,000 mile range on the DEF tank, but it's more like 15,000 - 20,000 miles, depending on driving routine.

2. No word on these yet. If they do get looked into, it wouldn't surprise me to find a similar elephant in that room. I'm sure we'll find out at some point whether the V6 is in compliance or not.

I reeeeeeallly hope I eventually just have to use more DEF, and don't get a hit in FE or Power

 

[HMCS]

At $38k per vehicle (plus the fix cost) it would be cheaper to pull each vehicle off the road and give each owner a new one

 

[pfredricks]

It is a scary thought, and Borsig expressed a similar concern. But, there are a couple things that point to the sky maybe not having to fall so much.

1. Could the car just be programmed to use more AdBlue? Maybe the reason they had the "Defeat Device" is just so people wouldn't complain about having to refill DEF 2x as often.

2. What about the 3.0 L diesels? (A6, Touareg, etc). Those are apparently fine? and they make plenty of power and do well on fuel efficiency.

My 2012 TDI doesn't have DEF. So VW can either add a DEF system or reprogram the car. I suspect that VW won't want to spend thousands to add a DEF system.

http://ask.cars.com/2012/11/why-do-some-volkswagen-diesels-use-adblue-and-others-do-not.html

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Once these fixes start rolling out, I can think of another group of people who are going to be making big $$$: Our TDI tuners!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I reeeeeeallly hope I eventually just have to use more DEF, and don't get a hit in FE or Power

I think that will be the case for any SCR equipped cars (2012+ Passat and all 2015+ models). What remains to be seen is what happens with the cars that rely on the small LNT (without exhaust fluid), as they will be more difficult to get into compliance while retaining good drivability and fuel economy.

 

[Second Turbo]

Who dun it

mk3: As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions.

Assuming the allegations are true as presented*, it strikes me as at least possible that this was an engineering or engineering management decision rather than a business management decision, and perhaps not a very high level eng mgmt decision.

Scenario - Business management asks Engineering "We need to meet Tier2 and Euro4 with no loss in fuel economy. Can we do that?" Engineering: "Sure, and we'll bet our bonuses on that."

Engineering later discovers they can't.

Of course, who will actually get blamed might be a scapegoat or a low-level coder, rather than the actual mastermind.

One scenario I doubt, though, is that a lone rogue coder did this. There have likely been too many eyes on that code, for too long, if only for code review and security review. What are these particular CASE and IF statements here for?
________
* If true, what idiot(s) thought that emissions testing would always be done on dynos, rather than during real driving?

 

[VW Derf]

Man the tdiclub servers are under heavy load today.

Hopefully it's better now, but if not, please comment here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=311444

 

[andyrooski17]

My 2012 TDI doesn't have DEF. So VW can either add a DEF system or reprogram the car. I suspect that VW won't want to spend thousands to add a DEF system.

http://ask.cars.com/2012/11/why-do-some-volkswagen-diesels-use-adblue-and-others-do-not.html

I think that will be the case for any SCR equipped cars (2012+ Passat and all 2015+ models). What remains to be seen is what happens with the cars that rely on the small LNT (without exhaust fluid), as they will be more difficult to get into compliance while retaining good drivability and fuel economy.

Good points both.

 

[MAW]

lets see. Cam issues......hpfp issues.........general lack of concern when the customer has issues......yep I don't feel bad for VW at all.

Seems like a train loaded full up with years of bad karma coming home with a full head of steam

You are right on the money with that statement. Too many years of the customers being the guinea pig for VW's engineers.

 

[Bmr4TDI]

This sucks. I joined this forum just yesterday in search of a TDI JSW. I live in an emissions county so this recall is really going to put a hold on me buying a used TDI.

Also, this may drastically affect the MPGs drivers will get as well as the emissions equipment reliability. Damn, I may have to look into a different car all together. Not looking forward to that.

 

[BMLO13]

Cant wait to see how this plays out. Hope VW didn't do the same thing to diesel cars that GM did to them in the 1980s

 

[GoFaster]

At $38k per vehicle (plus the fix cost) it would be cheaper to pull each vehicle off the road and give each owner a new one

The fine still applies even IF they did that.

The vehicles passed the emission tests in some fashion, so it will still be possible to pass those tests, just by removing the "switch" and running it in "dyno mode" all the time. They're not going to have to buy back the cars.

It will end up using more fuel ... probably in line with the EPA estimates (Same test procedure for fuel economy as for emissions, they are one and the same) as opposed to better than EPA estimates.

The big question is whether they did this in order to extend the life of some critical component so that it would pass the durability requirements ...

The next big question is whether other manufacturers of North-American-market automotive / light truck diesels are doing the same thing ...

And the next big thing is whether they've done this for Euro 5 / Euro 6 as well ...

 

[ARDailey]

At least VW hasn't poisoned American pristine streams & rivers with toxic mine waste.

Perhaps the EPA is looking for funding to deal with that mess.

 

[White Passat]

Wait and see what happens, Texas is a no test state. The EPA has an interesting reputation these days. Still love my '13 Passat, not likely to stop driving it because the EPA cries foul on tests. It's a long ways to a recall, settlement ... . I suspect the servers running this forum will need an upgrade.

 

[meerschm]

It will be interesting to see what the VW technical fix is, what the performance and longevity impacts are, and what compliance incentives will be provided.

the NTSB (safety, not emissions) has recently pushed automakers to do more to gain compliance with recalls.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...r-announces-buyback-program-details/71480882/ for example.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

Given that no other manufacturer has produced a non-urea passenger car diesel, doesn't that kind of tell us that any software updates will absolutely decimate the economy and power of our cars?

Agree, this has the makings of a crap sandwich.

40x.000000000001 is still pretty small FWIW. Wait for all the facts IMO.

If it was no big deal, then why cheat in the first place?

To me it says (screams?) they cheated because they could not meet emissions limits without adding a lot of expensive components that would have increased the price of the cars to the point where few would buy them.

This wasn't a small oversight. The potential risk for liabilities/fines was huge.

 

[ARDailey]

The test is to verify that the vehicle will be emissions compliant while traveling down the road. VW cheated on the test.

Isn't there technology out there to test emissions while the car is actually driving down the road?

 

[Bmr4TDI]

Maybe this will spill over and finally put an end to ECU tunes, straight pipes, and other "off road" upgrades to defeat emissions controls.

What's wrong with you? People can legally do whatever they want with their cars. The law only controls what can be done to those cars when they are on public roads. Now if someone wants to do an offroad mod to their can and risk being caught with said mod on a public road, they are free to do that. When caught, they are ticketed.

 

[meerschm]

The 2014 voluntary recall mentioned in the EPA letter (first post) sounds like the 2306 action ECU update.

unless it is my imagination, a few members noted DPF failures (actually low pressure EGR flow rate failures caused by soot bypassing DPF cracks) a short while after having the software updated. could be that part of that update was tightening the parameters. (so that what was an acceptable (no MIL) level of performance reduction was no longer so)

 

[SFHGolfTDI]

Isn't there technology out there to test emissions while the car is actually driving down the road?

That is how they uncovered this. But it is not how EPA conducts its tests.

 

[no-blue-screen]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 550 (113 members and 437 guests)

The slowness issues seem to be fixed. This very well could just be the tip of the iceberg. I mean I hope not, but its possible we may see engine management updates for other diesels from other mfr. Stuff like this drives up costs and that isn't a good thing for diesel lovers in the USA.

 

[UFO]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/billvis...-owners-probably-arent-going-to-like-the-fix/

So this article suggests the 'fix' means we lose power, torque and efficiency. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

That writer is not convincing to me, sounds like a standard guess.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Slowness issue due to high load has hopefully been resolved by Fred.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Two users have been banned for a month for going political (and quite spectacularly, I might add) in this thread. :roll eyes:

I thank the rest of you for keeping it clean, factual, and friendly.

 

[meerschm]

What's wrong with you? People can legally do whatever they want with their cars. The law only controls what can be done to those cars when they are on public roads. Now if someone wants to do an offroad mod to their can and risk being caught with said mod on a public road, they are free to do that. When caught, they are ticketed.

there are specific laws and regulations regarding off road engines as well. violations of the law are for removal of the emissions equipment apply to whatever condition was authorized for sale in the US.

the whole idea that "off road" lets you off the hook is not a legal concept that will provide any relief in court. ( I am not a lawyer)

the only protection is that the federal and state enforcement racks cases in order of impact, and a single operator is not likely to cause enough damage to health or environment to get above the funds to prosecute line. (if they ever did get around to it, the civil penalty of a few thousand per violation could mean per-day of operation)

(in this case, half a million TDI vehicles VW sold at increased emissions is higher on the do-something list than a few hundred dpf removal pipes and tunes, or a single car owner, except if caught by enforcement activities in areas where air quality (or lack thereof) call for pre-registration inspection and checks.)

 

[B100]

Moderator note: any user posting political garbage in this thread will immediately receive a one month ban! Keep it clean, keep it factual, and keep it friendly!

Thanks for enforcing that.

On point, I wonder if VW will able to contain the fallout from this? It's going to hit their sales, hurt their credibility, and harden the resolve of regulators against diesel in general. Bad for all of us. I look forward to learning more about the exploit, and about the real-world effect it had on emissions and performance. But even if it turns out not to be as bad as alleged, the damage to VW is done.