Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[notfrommt]

I just read a "news" story referencing this site as evidence that TDI owners are freaking the f**k out. (sorry no link, also could have been mentioned in the 140+ pages already on this) This is bad, because the "news" is using paranoia to fuel paranoia. (sarcasm on)They never do this because they are fair and balanced; Wiki WMD, Watergate, Justin Beiber, Deflategate for examples of fair journalism. (sarcasm off)


We drive diesels, which produce gas that isn't OK to suck in. If news of this action VWOA has taken to deliver a car to you (that you enjoy driving enough to join this website!!) has broken your conscience then maybe a diesel is not for you. Sell it and get something else more suited to your need for reassurance that your car choices have a tremendous effect on your surroundings beyond test conditions of which you have no understanding. If you can't sell it at a price you are comfortable with, then maybe it's you with the issue since you have just sold your integrity.

I am posting this past my bedtime, understand that it is going to be lost in what I expect will be 140 more pages(!) on or around the subject, and enjoy all of this dialogue.

 

[theguywiththelongestname]

...for other things related to the Earth the Europeans seem to be relatively progressive. My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place...

probably something to do with this > $$$ or this > €€€

 

[charley654]

Good laugh about the situation..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA

Thanks for posting it.
That you tube video is funny as hell.

Some of the shorts...

TDIs are fun as hell to drive...
Tell the EPA, I will see them in hell before I recall 500,00 cars...
Don't worry, Audi and Porsche will keep VW afloat...
We need to change...
Maybe we should just take after the Japanese, focus on building reliable cars and selling it for reasonable price...

LOL...

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I just read a "news" story referencing this site as evidence that TDI owners are freaking the f**k out. (sorry no link, also could have been mentioned in the 140+ pages already on this) This is bad, because the "news" is using paranoia to fuel paranoia. (sarcasm on)They never do this because they are fair and balanced; Wiki WMD, Watergate, Justin Beiber, Deflategate for examples of fair journalism. (sarcasm off)


We drive diesels, which produce gas that isn't OK to suck in. If news of this action VWOA has taken to deliver a car to you (that you enjoy driving enough to join this website!!) has broken your conscience then maybe a diesel is not for you. Sell it and get something else more suited to your need for reassurance that your car choices have a tremendous effect on your surroundings beyond test conditions of which you have no understanding. If you can't sell it at a price you are comfortable with, then maybe it's you with the issue since you have just sold your integrity.

I am posting this past my bedtime, understand that it is going to be lost in what I expect will be 140 more pages(!) on or around the subject, and enjoy all of this dialogue.

I think you're referring to this Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...79d3f6-60a5-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html

And they're right - a lot of people, who likely don't understand what's going on, are freaking out, especially with all of the misinformation being strewn about the internet.

Keep calm, research what's actually going on (start by reading the first post of this thread, where all of the pertinent information has been summarized), and make informed decisions.

 

[Chris Tobin]

http://artofgears.com/2015/09/21/br...rn-apologizes-and-says-we-totally-screwed-up/
VWoA CEO say's ”Our company was dishonest. In my German words, we totally screwed up.”
Maybe the VW worshipers that say VW has not admitted to this will finally see that this is real, and it is a big deal and there will be consequences for VW's actions.

 

[CDubber]

I would say that a likely scenario is that the ECU is reprogrammed to eliminate the "switch" so that it runs in emission-control mode all the time, but there will be consequences - likely the system will not meet the 120,000 / 150,000 mile durability requirements - so this could be hand-in-hand with a lengthened and strengthened emissions warranty. The recent emissions-related recall was a halfhearted attempt - they were likely still trying to get at least some durability out of the emissions hardware.

You better believe that performance will take a hit too. My car is suddenly not the car I test drove and subsequently decided to buy. And if that's the case VW had better give me a refund or compensate me in a way that makes my now-sluggish car more bearable to live with.

Defrauding a half-million buyers will not be wiped away with a quick ECU update.

 

[Karmann_20v]

You better believe that performance will take a hit too. My car is suddenly not the car I test drove and subsequently decided to buy. And if that's the case VW had better give me a refund or compensate me in a way that makes my now-sluggish car more bearable to live with.

Defrauding a half-million buyers will not be wiped away with a quick ECU update.

The real question: is the engine now emissions compliant?

 

[Grievous Angel]

Frig it. I've regretted the DSG decision since Day 1. Have held my breath on the HPFP for 80k plus. Have listened to that little dash rattle for the same mileage (a straw in the crack works).

Pile on all this other crap...


If I can get a dealer to give me a decent price I'll be driving a 6 spd Mazda 6 tomorrow. That's assuming I can get an offer at all.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Frig it. I've regretted the DSG decision since Day 1. Have held my breath on the HPFP for 80k plus. Have listened to that little dash rattle for the same mileage (a straw in the crack works).
Pile on all this other crap...
If I can get a dealer to give me a decent price I'll be driving a 6 spd Mazda 6 tomorrow. That's assuming I can get an offer at all.

It would behoove you to wait until this shakes out a little bit more, unless you want a small percentage of what your car is worth tomorrow. Knee-jerk reactions don't pay off.

 

[rotarykid]

The folks at the University were approached by another group doing research because the University group had the required equipment to do road testing. Blaming this on "hippies" and prius owners or the EPA is just bunk. This is all VW's issue.

VW made the car recognize when being tested and perform differently then when not being tested. That is specifically against the law and completely unethical. VW sold American's and Europeans a lie.

Actually the real lie is the bullshirt that CARB and the EPA are selling with their claims of the rules VW broke have a single thing with giving us cleaner air!

The real facts are that these current ridiculous emissions requirements on non-existent since 1986 MY light duty auto diesels are these rules do nothing to impact actual air quality anywhere in the US today.....

How could they when the real polluters today, loophole SUVs and puckups are sold in numbers just last month higher than all of the years these have been offered!

No clean air will ever be gotten through the over regulation of non-existent for three decades now light duty diesel autos......This is not about cleaning up any air, but is about a useless to us all feel good action taken against the only vehicle currently which allows for less fuel to used while driving in the real world at real world today speeds.......

I hope this fact makes the news, how stupid it is to go after non-existent vehicles which sip fuel making the US less dependent on foreign oil....

While the biggest polluters(loophole class vehicles) are given another decade at least to waste fuel at unbelievable still legal levels while spewing real pollution (unmeasured or regulated ultra fine PMs which stay aerosolized for months. Ultra fine PMs which cause real health issues and deaths!


Dumb, dumb, dumb..........

 

[tdibigd]

The real question: is the engine now emissions compliant?

There's no remedy offered yet so for the time being they are not compliant. I suspect a fix will be offered fairly quickly. Like CDubber mentioned, however, I can't imagine it being free of side-effects.

I speculate that the cars were not very close (engineering design-wise) to passing the emissions testing without the cheat, while delivering the claimed power and economy. If they were close, it would seem that making them right would've be a lot easier, and much less risky, than developing and embedding the sinister code.

 

[tongsli]

even though I'm not directly affected, my two TDI's are the best cars I've ever owned. Oh wait, I've only bought VW's. Let me try again...

Ok, they are the best cars I've owned compared to the GM's my family bought when I was growing up over the years. And, IMO still better than the Hondas my dad has owned since.

 

[Fevzi]

The real question: is the engine now emissions compliant?

Agreed on both points. If VW cannot get the car to pass the emissions tests with whatever downside it causes than they have no other option to buy them all back. On the other hand if VW manages to lower true emissions to the acceptable levels than it is a matter of compensating us for the loss in MPG + whatever else and resale value of the car. But I cannot put a prize on being a big polluter all the while I feel great thinking I was not harming the environment as much. So infuriating!

PS: we have been trying to schedule a regular oil service with the dealer and they have been saying they are very busy, they will call us back later. I wonder if this scandal has something to do with it.

 

[Grievous Angel]

There's no remedy offered yet so for the time being they are not compliant. I suspect a fix will be offered fairly quickly. Like CDubber mentioned, however, I can't imagine it being free of side-effects.
I speculate that the cars were not very close (engineering design-wise) to passing the emissions testing without the cheat, while delivering the claimed power and economy. If they were close, it would seem that making them right would've be a lot easier, and much less risky, than developing and embedding the sinister code.

I think I'd tolerate a slight hit to MPG. I'd be less OK with a slight hit to to driveability.


What I'm not OK with is adding yet another liability to what I've viewed as a ticking time bomb. It's bad enough I've had the HPFP in the back of my mind for four years--if they "fix" this, I can only imagine the amount of liability I'll face in terms of broken emissions systems.

I had a little voice in the back of my head when I chose the utterly soul crushing Corolla in '03 instead of the handsome Jetta. I wish I'd listened to that same soul crushing voice in '11.

 

[kaanage]

IIRC Chevy Cruze diesel uses a Euro drivetrain, getting 150 hp 0-60 in 8.5 seconds with solid mpg. I wonder what technology GM used that passed the test.

AFAIK, the Cruze uses a Fiat MultiJet diesel drivetrain.

www.roadandtrack.com news-fiat-factoid-about-2014-chevy-cruze-diesel/

 

[Grievous Angel]

It would behoove you to wait until this shakes out a little bit more, unless you want a small percentage of what your car is worth tomorrow. Knee-jerk reactions don't pay off.

That's fair enough. I've done the pricing. If they'll give me 9 to 10k (that seems fair for a trade in per the internet)--83k miles on a clean 2012. Depends on how bad they want to move a Mazda. Already located a sweet touring model with a 6 speed.

What's unclear to me is if other dealerships will have the same kind of "stop sale" orders.

 

[tdibigd]

It would behoove you to wait until this shakes out a little bit more, unless you want a small percentage of what your car is worth tomorrow. Knee-jerk reactions don't pay off.

Agreed. Besides, what makes you think a Mazda dealer will want it on trade? What would they do with it? VW has told its dealers not to sell used ones for now. For this reason, I suspect most dealers, including Mazda, won't be interested.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Actually the real lie is the bullshirt that CARB and the EPA are selling with their claims of the rules VW broke have a single thing with giving us cleaner air!
The real facts are that these current ridiculous emissions requirements on non-existent since 1986 MY light duty auto diesels are these rules do nothing to impact actual air quality anywhere in the US today.....
How could they when the real polluters today, loophole SUVs and puckups are sold in numbers just last month higher than all of the years these have been offered!
No clean air will ever be gotten through the over regulation of non-existent for three decades now light duty diesel autos......This is not about cleaning up any air, but is about a useless to us all feel good action taken against the only vehicle currently which allows for less fuel to used while driving in the real world at real world today speeds.......
I hope this fact makes the news, how stupid it is to go after non-existent vehicles which sip fuel making the US less dependent on foreign oil....
While the biggest polluters(loophole class vehicles) are given another decade at least to waste fuel at unbelievable still legal levels while spewing real pollution (unmeasured or regulated ultra fine PMs which stay aerosolized for months. Ultra fine PMs which cause real health issues and deaths!
Dumb, dumb, dumb..........

Can you provide some examples of the "loophole class vehicles?"

Most trucks and SUVs under the "2500" 3/4 ton threshold must conform to the exact same standard as our TDIs: Tier 2 Bin 5. Above that would be Tier 2 Bin 8, which is still pretty strict.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/weights.htm

Some of these "loophole class vehicles" that you're referring to might be T2B8, but they are not unregulated or "spewing real pollution," as you say. Regardless, the noncompliant TDIs don't fall anywhere inside of the Tier 2 system for NOx.

 

[WallyO]

Have long had Mercedes diesels in the 1970s and 80s, I had a 2013 Golf TDI for three years, mostly to use as a local car in the urban congestion I live in. I was not aware of the changes emission controls had created for diesels over the years, this was a mistake because of the kind of use I was intending. The outcome was a three year accumulated average (over 8k miles) of 26.2 mpg and innumerable forced regenerations that ran exhaust gas temperatures (EGTs) up in the 1350-1400 degree F range. If I put the car in the driveway and shut it down during one of the regen cycles, which I often had to do, the engine coolant fans would often run for 30-45 minutes and the engine bay smelled like it was on fire. When I inquired, VW told me all this behavior was normal and fine. I figured the car was not for me and that there were too many components that would not survive for long--even not counting the EGR, DPF, and HPFP potential. For any highway use, I found the car way too noisy. I loved the solidity of the structure, the crisp handling, low RPM torque and the DSG, but not nearly enough to put up with the shortcomings and the probable costs of keeping a car like that running. I was also *extremely* unimpressed with the VW dealer, which seemed to know less about the car than I did, and VW of America could have cared less about the dealership problems. I was delighted to get rid of the Golf, and now I'm doubly delighted. I think what VW has done here is disgraceful. For those with regular highway commutes who do not mind the noise levels, it might have been a good choice, but now I would be very shy about recommending another VW product.

 

[akjdouglass]

I am a newbie in the TDI world. I have been looking at TDIs for the past 3 years and I finally purchased a 2014 Golf TDI on September 12 (9 days ago) and I am absolutely in love with it. Now, with these news, I don't know what to think or what to expect. I hope I don't have to get rid of it :/

Anybody on the same boat?

Many, regardless of how long ago they purchased, are in your position. Be patient and, more importantly, enjoy your new ride in the meantime.

All the hyperbole and speculation of how this will all play out amounts to nothing more than a long discussion until the EPA and VW come to terms, which could take some time.

Again, be patient and drive. I expect to hear from VW, the EPA or both, at some point in the future. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[rotarykid]

It doesn't seem like you understand NOx issues then.



Nothing will probably die because you don't get your software update, but you're failing to understand or appreciate the bigger picture here. If 1 million people took your stance then it would be a much bigger issue. I suppose you're just special. Reducing emission from cars has substantially improved the air in this country compared to where it would be if the EPA didn't exist. If you really hate the EPA so much, you can always move to country w/o any environmental protections.

that's all well and good, but I call BS on 482,000 VWAG diesels put on the road over 6 years compared to the real pollution spewing vehicles out there.....

Try this number for size, 1,500,000 ford loophole class puckups per year, 1,200,000 chevy loophole class puckups per year, ~600,000 chrysler loophole class puckups......

So 6 years of sales of both for comparison, a real comparison....

3,000,000+ loophole class vehicles spewing real pollution compared to 482,000 fuel sipping diesels putting a reasonable amount of NOx, a chemical which many studies have shown to have the ability to actually reduce actual smog!

So all of these loophole class large displacement engine'd vehicles putting out real pollution today, this class of vehicle which still comes with a big V8 putting billions of mega-tons of unregulated nor measured ultra fine PMs,,,,,

Ultra FIne PMs which float around in the air for months at a time leading directly to cancer and every type of respiratory issue you can think of are left unregulated.....

While the EPA and CARB launch this useless witch hunt against fuel sipping diesels...........


Yeah,,,,,,,I get it.............

 

[VeeDubTDI]

That's fair enough. I've done the pricing. If they'll give me 9 to 10k (that seems fair for a trade in per the internet)--83k miles on a clean 2012. Depends on how bad they want to move a Mazda. Already located a sweet touring model with a 6 speed.
What's unclear to me is if other dealerships will have the same kind of "stop sale" orders.

Used TDIs can still be bought and sold. VW is only doing a stop sale used ones to cover their butts.

 

[Grievous Angel]

Agreed. Besides, what makes you think a Mazda dealer will want it on trade? What would they do with it? VW has told its dealers not to sell used ones for now. For this reason, I suspect most dealers, including Mazda, won't be interested.

This is probably factual.

It's a shame I've been put into this situation.

The only other time I can think of that was remotely like this was when my parents bought an 84 Olds Cutlass Supreme Diesel.

They got burned--badly--on that one. Funny how we don't learn from the mistakes of our fathers.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Have long had Mercedes diesels in the 1970s and 80s, I had a 2013 Golf TDI for three years, mostly to use as a local car in the urban congestion I live in. I was not aware of the changes emission controls had created for diesels over the years, this was a mistake because of the kind of use I was intending. The outcome was a three year accumulated average (over 8k miles) of 26.2 mpg and innumerable forced regenerations that ran exhaust gas temperatures (EGTs) up in the 1350-1400 degree F range. If I put the car in the driveway and shut it down during one of the regen cycles, which I often had to do, the engine coolant fans would often run for 30-45 minutes and the engine bay smelled like it was on fire. When I inquired, VW told me all this behavior was normal and fine. I figured the car was not for me and that there were too many components that would not survive for long--even not counting the EGR, DPF, and HPFP potential. For any highway use, I found the car way too noisy. I loved the solidity of the structure, the crisp handling, low RPM torque and the DSG, but not nearly enough to put up with the shortcomings and the probable costs of keeping a car like that running. I was also *extremely* unimpressed with the VW dealer, which seemed to know less about the car than I did, and VW of America could have cared less about the dealership problems. I was delighted to get rid of the Golf, and now I'm doubly delighted. I think what VW has done here is disgraceful. For those with regular highway commutes who do not mind the noise levels, it might have been a good choice, but now I would be very shy about recommending another VW product.

Unfortunately, modern diesels do not make good local run-about cars. If you don't exceed 15 miles per trip at least a couple of times per week, you're going to experience the things that you describe above.

As it relates to fuel economy, short trips kill fuel economy. You can't go 5 miles in a TDI and expect to get 40 MPG, as a significant portion of the fuel used goes to getting the emissions components up to temperature. If you increase that 5 mile trip to 15, you will see your fuel economy return to normal.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

that's all well and good, but I call BS on 482,000 VWAG diesels put on the road over 6 years compared to the real pollution spewing vehicles out there.....
Try this number for size, 1,500,000 ford loophole class puckups per year, 1,200,000 chevy loophole class puckups per year, ~600,000 chrysler loophole class puckups......
So 6 years of sales of both for comparison, a real comparison....
3,000,000+ loophole class vehicles spewing real pollution compared to 482,000 fuel sipping diesels putting a reasonable amount of NOx, a chemical which many studies have shown to have the ability to actually reduce actual smog!
So all of these loophole class large displacement engine'd vehicles putting out real pollution today, this class of vehicle which still comes with a big V8 putting billions of mega-tons of unregulated nor measured ultra fine PMs,,,,,
Ultra FIne PMs which float around in the air for months at a time leading directly to cancer and every type of respiratory issue you can think of are left unregulated.....
While the EPA and CARB launch this useless witch hunt against fuel sipping diesels...........
Yeah,,,,,,,I get it.............

What emissions category do these 3 million "loophole class" vehicles fall into?

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/l.../tier2stds.htm
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/weights.htm

Also, the 482,000 TDIs in question are not emitting a "reasonable amount" of NOx. They're spewing more NOx than every other passenger vehicle on the market. Look it up.

 

[Mizzeaux]

Frig it. I've regretted the DSG decision since Day 1. Have held my breath on the HPFP for 80k plus. Have listened to that little dash rattle for the same mileage (a straw in the crack works).
Pile on all this other crap...
If I can get a dealer to give me a decent price I'll be driving a 6 spd Mazda 6 tomorrow. That's assuming I can get an offer at all.

My rant brotha, I can tell,you that I'm seeing plenty of people getting screwed at my friends dealerships. Some dude just traded in a 2010 JSW TDI with 47k on it for 10,000 out of fear. As a comparison, I sold my JSW 13 months ago for 21K, to a dealership.

It will moderate, and you'll be better off for waiting. Grab them and enjoy the ride. Good chance you'll make money waiting, or at least not lose as much.

Right now dealerships will say they can't sell your trade, that won't last forever.

 

[tdibigd]

This is probably factual.
It's a shame I've been put into this situation.
The only other time I can think of that was remotely like this was when my parents bought an 84 Olds Cutlass Supreme Diesel.
They got burned--badly--on that one. Funny how we don't learn from the mistakes of our fathers.

Man I'm sorry, I've had some big regretful purchases too and it sucks. To varying degrees everyone here is in the same spot on this. If you can find a way to let things unfold a bit, you'll probably be better off.

Oh, and for me growing up it was my parents' 1984 Cutlass Ciera. Then an Audi 5000 - right when the 60 minutes unintended acceleration expose blew up! That Audi was awesome though. A POS in many respects, but awesome.

 

[Jay03]

I wouldn't be surprised if a possible loophole behind all this is to lower our mpg's so we have to use more fuel. We are not allowed to be be green- support petroleum production!!

This! The EPA and most of the auto makers in general have been making sure fuel economy never gets too high. Its obvious to me, think about it. I had a 1987 toyota camry that got 34-36MPG. What does a toyota camry get for mileage today? So your telling me in almost 30 years with all the technological advances we've made fuel mileage in our vehicles has not improved? I have seen plenty of examples of this over the last few decades. Everyone's getting butt hurt about the lies and emissions. When I am over here thinking "of course, they got good fuel economy... duh!"

So to simplify it for myself, answer me this. Does vehicle A that burns less fuel to go a set distance with some emissions controls pollute more than vehicle B that burns more fuel to go that same distance but has more emissions control. Kinda seems like it could be a wash to me but you wont see that test anywhere. It seems like burning less fuel to drive a certain distance would in itself be a form of pollution reduction. They can only make burning fuel so clean, but burning less of it certainly could help. I don't know... either way my order for a 2016 GSW was cancelled and I wont bother trying again if they get this figured out. Time to look at other options.

 

[truckstopper]

Being "progressive" doesn't always translate into actual progress...

As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions. Are the Emissions rules more relaxed in Europe? How did these people justify the cheating in their mind so that they felt ok with it?
for other things related to the Earth the Europeans seem to be relatively progressive. My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place.

I just happened to run into this article while reading up on the emissions violations:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...irty-secret-pollutes-like-beijing-airpocalyse

I love diesels, but this article brings up some interesting points:

“Successive governments knew more than 10 years ago that diesel was producing all these harmful pollutants, but they myopically plowed on with their CO2 agenda,”

"The EU limits NO2 to a maximum of 40 micrograms per cubic meter of air. The concentration on Marylebone Road, a stone’s throw from Regent’s Park, was almost 94 micrograms in 2012, according to the most recent data from the EEA. The level for the site last year was 81 micrograms, and it’s averaging 83 micrograms this year, according to King’s College London. In 1998, when the King’s College data begins, it was 92. That’s about the time the switch to diesel started."

Adds some perspective no?

 

[Grievous Angel]

I'll chill. The internet says my car is worth around 10k clean on trade in. I doubt they'll touch it. And this is all sage advice. I just paid for that dern 80k service. And get this: i'm on the original tires. I'll be needing a new set soon. This has been, in reality, a GREAT car. I've had less trouble out of it than any other car I've ever owned. Sure, it's pretty expensive to maintain. But I enjoy driving it, sitting in it, looking at it . . bragging on it. Wouldn't hurt my feelings to run it to 200k and beyond. I ran my Corolla to that--and just divorced it out of pure hate. Even though it was running like a top at the time.