Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[bhtooefr]

I have a friend he is mechanic, he told me, he knew VW TDi are not complained with EPA standards, saying it's all connected to traction/abs control system, so when front wheels are spinning and rear wheels are stand still, than computer goes to different emission control curve and produced a good result for the emission test. This can explain no traction off switch. ???

Explain why 2009 Jetta TDIs have the ESP off button, then.

 

[vwUMO]

At over 1,900 posts spread across 20 pages it has been an interesting diversion over the last few days. But we are now into over and over regurgitation so maybe it is time to close the thread and not allow any replacements on this subject?

don't forget to tip your wait-staff!

 

[romad]

Do you like weekends off? If it wasn't for unions we would not have weekends off and also no OT. These are things that most people take for granted today.

Sorry, in my career I was "on duty" 24/7. Now I'm "off" 24/7 (well unless my "boss" has a "Honey, Do" task).

 

[VeeDubTDI]

At over 1,900 posts spread across 20 pages it has been an interesting diversion over the last few days. But we are now into over and over regurgitation so maybe it is time to close the thread and not allow any replacements on this subject?

That sounds like a futile game of whack-a-mole. I think we'll just let this one keep going.

 

[funboi]

swap

any chance that VW might let me do a 1 for 1 swap TDI to GTI for free?

 

[wiley264]

That sounds like a futile game of whack-a-mole. I think we'll just let this one keep going.

... but then someone on the internet can be WRONG!

Think I'ma head back to my "corner of patience" until there's actually something to post about. Thanks for keeping the first post up to date - that's without a doubt the most useful post in this 100+ pages of noise.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

LOL @ corner of patience.

You'll never get any sleep!

 

[rhino4evr]

All the "VWs aren't good cars" and any other comment criticizing the TDI series should be deleted. This isn't a topic regarding your opinion of the vehicle, and wether we should have bought a hybrid instead. I think the majority of people on here generally like their TDIs and are having trouble with this news. This thread really isn't the place to "make your point" on why whatever car you own instead is better.

/rant

 

[romad]

don't forget to tip your wait-staff!

Just sent. Had to figure out the CAD/USD conversion rate since Paypal didn't tell me upfront it was in CAD.

 

[TDI-vs-GAS]

one last post...

Despite what you would apparently like to believe this does not appear in any way to be political. Even if the cars were compliant and VW still had programed a "switch" to make it more compliant during testing (which they have admitted to), they would still be breaking the law.

It doesn't matter what the findings will be. The intended effect has been achieved. Americans don't like diesel. ...again. especially from no-good, 'cheatin' car makers like VW. The public will keep an eye on them for years. They will now look into hybrids and traditional gas powered cars, ...again


thus the TDI-vs-Gas battle is settled. TDI lost. Let this be a lesson to those who want to challenge the status quo. Americans can be happy with 35mpg gas cars and 49mpg hybrids.

tell me that's not political...

 

[MacBuckeye]

Those German engineers are pretty darn smart. Almost got away with it.
Schäm dich Herr Winterkorn!


For all the naysayers out there who bash those of us with a DPF delete and tune.... doesn't sound like our cars are any worse than a stock TDI.

 

[SageBrush]

Notwithstanding the CEO's recent announcement of full cooperation with the EPA and a corporate culture that does not tolerate fraud, the timeline of story is impressive:

1. VW introduces a software program no later than 2008 to circumvent emission requirements in the US and leaves it in, operational, until the present day
2. May 2014: VW is notified by the EPA of large discrepancies between dyno and road testing and clarification is requested. At this point VW knows the fraud is unravelling, so what do they do ?
3. VW is granted permission by the EPA to update the affected cars to bring them into compliance. This turns out to be a half-hearted attempt at best. Presumably a delaying tactic.
4. Over the next ~ 12 months VW CONTINUES to deceive the EPA with attempts to explain the results as technical problems. During this period VW continues to sell cars to the public.
5. EPA threatens to halt sales sometime in the last 3 months, and then VW admits to the fraud

I don't know if the EPA intends to pile on the fines, but obstruction sure seems like a reasonable charge.
I'd like to understand what virtual reality the VW decision makers operate in. None of these decisions seem rational to me.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

I just read on Foxnews.com:

"The EPA warned VW Friday that in addition to corporate fines of up to $37,500 per vehicle, individuals could be fined $3,750 per violation of the Clean Air Act"

If this is true then those who refuse the recal and drive as is may be fined? Can anyone verify this.

The $3,750 per car violation is for the dealer.

It is truly scary to think the dealer was deliberately complicit in this.

I rather think that only a few executives were in the know.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Those German engineers are pretty darn smart. Almost got away with it.
Schäm dich Herr Winterkorn!


For all the naysayers out there who bash those of us with a DPF delete and tune.... doesn't sound like our cars are any worse than a stock TDI.

While that's cute, it isn't true. NOx might not be a whole lot different, but that's only a part of the emissions equation. PM emissions, for example, are significantly higher with a DPF delete.

 

[bhtooefr]

The $3,750 per car violation is for the dealer.

It is truly scary to think the dealer was deliberately complicit in this.

I rather think that only a few executives were in the know.

Citation needed.

If the $3750 is for individuals involved, it'll be a fine levied against any person that worked for VW and was responsible for this. Per car that they were responsible for.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

For all the naysayers out there who bash those of us with a DPF delete and tune.... doesn't sound like our cars are any worse than a stock TDI.

But wouldn't that also mean you folks went to all that trouble and expense for nothing?

 

[ericy]

It seems like one of the folks who chip the engines (if they had time on their hands with nothing better to do ) could "chip" the engine so that the factory supplied "compliant" emission control curve was always used. And then take it out for a spin dyno the thing.

It wouldn't answer all of the questions, of course, but it would tell us what kind of car we are likely to end up with when the dust settles.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

As of now, all references to TDIs, except for the Touareg, have been removed from the VW Canada website. Up until earlier today, they were still listed under "features and specs" but you couldn't build one. Now all references have been deleted.

I have a funny feeling they won't be coming back any time soon.

They're still showing TDIs on the US site though.

 

[Cjbunltd]

I loved my '02 Jetta GLS TDI. I owned it since new and drove over 250K miles. I felt a lot of trepidation handing it down to my son but decided to buy a used 2010 Jetta TDI with low mileage while I was still able to find one. That was just over 2 years ago. I have really struggled with trying to like it ever since. The bottom line is I am just not happy with it. I've been biding my time and waiting until I owe less than what it's worth before trading it. Thanks to this debacle it doesn't look like that will ever happen. Here's hoping VW will offer a buy-back program. Otherwise, I may be stuck with this POS for a very long time...

 

[happycamper]

Hmmm wonder what will come from this.

----------------------------

9/18/2015 EPA press release: http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument

9/18/2015 EPA notice of violation: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

9/18/2015 CARB compliance letter set to Volkswagen: http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.htm

9/18/2015 Volkswagen statement regarding EPA investigation: http://media.vw.com/release/1064/

9/18/2015 Stop sale notice from VWoA to dealers: http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3209/stop-sale-note3.pdf

9/20/2015 STATEMENT OF PROF. DR. MARTIN WINTERKORN, CEO OF VOLKSWAGEN AG: http://media.vw.com/release/1066/

9/20/2015 VW’s Emissions Cheating Found by Curious Clean-Air Group - Washington Post article with an overview: http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-NUXWZM6JTSE901-44SIDIDMH3F3206LJABAVM0V73.

9/21/2015 "Volkswagen Canada has issued a stop-sale order to our dealers for all of the affected vehicles pending resolution of this matter": http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-emissions-rigging-1.3236548..

9/21/2015 Tech presentation from TDIFest over the Labor Day weekend on the subject of DEF and SCR by TDIMeister: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4893129&postcount=1613

9/21/2015 Volkswagen the subject of an upcoming congressional hearing: http://energycommerce.house.gov/pre...-announce-hearing-volkswagen-emissions-issues

5/30/2014 WVU CAFEE study that uncovered the emissions scandal: http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us

Affected vehicles in the US:

Vehicle A = 2012 Jetta SportWagen TDI, Vehicle B = 2013 Passat TDI, Vehicle C = BMW X5 xDrive35d

There is lots of good information in all of the links above. It is highly recommended reading if you want to know the facts.

Oops.

Interestingly, 2012 and 2013 Passats are not included, but 2014 Passats and ALL 2015 model year vehicles (which include urea/SCR). Very strange.

Have you read the first post? The list of affected vehicles is there. It includes ALL four cylinder diesel Volkswagens model years 2009 to present.

Well, it isn't exactly clear, but depending on what the topic is - your first response is just as correct as the later one.

That is because there are two major and separate areas of action involved - which helps add to the confusion both EPA and ARB have created 'imo' unnecessarily. ( They appear to have been rushing on Friday.) You can develop an understanding of some of this by plowing the various sections of Code cited.

If we go through the EPA site, we can find @ least three oops, make that four pages ( there may be more ) where a vehicle list is given.


Two of those pages - which also appear to have been written more recently, exclude the 2012 and 2013 Passat TDI.

As an example, the EPA on line Press Release concerning the NOV itself, does not include the 2012 / 2013 Passat.

( Here is the other one - straight from the EPA itself that does list the 2012 - 2015 Passats for Investigation because it is a notification of the Notification basically. )

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/violations.htm




The third page, ( the chart in the EPA NOV 'Letter' / first post above ) which also covers the first chronological area of compliance investigation, does necessarily the 2012 and 2013.

In otherwords generically, developing a later fix for a problem while all well and good, does not necessarily get an OEM off the hook for why one was necessary to start with - and with regard to the period of time while product was out of compliance.


If we go over to the (C)ARB document / Letter, in the discussion it appears that the one software / recall did cause the 2012 Passat ( aka 'Gen2' / Vehicle 'B' ) to pass; while it was only partially effective in terms of the other 2012 ( Gen1 / Vehicle 'A' .)

It is admittedly, written poorly with unnecessary ambiguity - as was the EPA letter in a different way so the above is not completely certain but the above does fit the contents of all EPA, ARB pages within Documents - with vehicle lists. Otherwise, one has to postulate and believe the EPA then started making list mistakes and repeating them which under the circumstances.... seems a bit of a less likely stretch especially since none of that has ( then ) been corrected by this post.


So to recap; all 2009 / 2015 Certifications of Compliance and the processes behind them will be investigated including the 2012 and 2013 Passat TDI product; while the separate activities for remedies and related such as possibly ? stop sales ?? would seem to 'now' exclude the 2012 / 2013 Passat TDI.


Worth pointing out, no attempt was made to clarify any of this and also make sure that the Media and Public would be aware that other P - A -VW V6 / ( V10 ) TD product were not part of this, which is a common courtesy extended in at least the surrounding Conference Calls and or news conferences.

 

[vwUMO]

Just sent. Had to figure out the CAD/USD conversion rate since Paypal didn't tell me upfront it was in CAD.

I made the same mistake... I also made a mental note to head up to Montreal next weekend since the exchange rate is awesome right now!

 

[El Dobro]

As of now, all references to TDIs, except for the Touareg, have been removed from the VW Canada website. Up until earlier today, they were still listed under "features and specs" but you couldn't build one. Now all references have been deleted.

I have a funny feeling they won't be coming back any time soon.

They're still showing TDIs on the US site though.

You can still build them here, just can't find them.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

To reduce confusion, I removed my post where I said the 2012/13 Passats weren't included, as that was posted prior to the clarified list from the EPA and VW.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Notwithstanding the CEO's recent announcement of full cooperation with the EPA and a corporate culture that does not tolerate fraud, the timeline of story is impressive:

1. VW introduces a software program no later than 2008 to circumvent emission requirements in the US and leaves it in, operational, until the present day
2. May 2014: VW is notified by the EPA of large discrepancies between dyno and road testing and clarification is requested. At this point VW knows the fraud is unravelling, so what do they do ?
3. VW is granted permission by the EPA to update the affected cars to bring them into compliance. This turns out to be a half-hearted attempt at best. Presumably a delaying tactic.
4. Over the next ~ 12 months VW CONTINUES to deceive the EPA with attempts to explain the results as technical problems. During this period VW continues to sell cars to the public.
5. EPA threatens to halt sales sometime in the last 3 months, and then VW admits to the fraud

I don't know if the EPA intends to pile on the fines, but obstruction sure seems like a reasonable charge.
I'd like to understand what virtual reality the VW decision makers operate in. None of these decisions seem rational to me.

I refuse to think that VW engineers carried this on in total secrecy. Physics cannot lie nor be covered up.

In fact, engineers merely carry out orders. Higher ups must have been in on this, and probably EPA higher ups too. And we are talking about two pay grades above top engineers. The decisions at those levels are completely financial.

 

[Victor-Whiskey]

Been away from the site for a while and came back to check on the recall. Wow, the sky is falling. Everyone take a deep breath. For now I am putting faith in our overly litigious country and that VW's future in N. America heavily relies on making this right for the consumer.

However; just in case, I'm saving my current ECU image so I can always go back. And, I expect there will be many work-arounds and "Stage .5" type tunes available in the future. It's still the same car I bought, and any ECU "fix" can be undone. I am personally not too concerned and anyone who understands this paragraph shouldn't be either, IMO.

To me the HPFP issue on previous models was much more concerning. There was nothing you can do about that but hope.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Been away from the site for a while and came back to check on the recall. Wow, the sky is falling. Everyone take a deep breath. For now I am putting faith in our overly litigious country and that VW's future in N. America heavily relies on making this right for the consumer.

However; just in case, I'm saving my current ECU image so I can always go back. And, I expect there will be many work-arounds and "Stage .5" type tunes available in the future. It's still the same car I bought, and any ECU "fix" can be undone. I am personally not too concerned and anyone who understands this paragraph shouldn't be either, IMO.

To me the HPFP issue on previous models was much more concerning. There was nothing you can do about that but hope.

For the end user, I think you're right. The rest of this doesn't bode well for VW, though, as questions have been raised about the European market, as well.

 

[diesel55]

Notwithstanding the CEO's recent announcement of full cooperation with the EPA and a corporate culture that does not tolerate fraud, the timeline of story is impressive:

1. VW introduces a software program no later than 2008 to circumvent emission requirements in the US and leaves it in, operational, until the present day
2. May 2014: VW is notified by the EPA of large discrepancies between dyno and road testing and clarification is requested. At this point VW knows the fraud is unravelling, so what do they do ?
3. VW is granted permission by the EPA to update the affected cars to bring them into compliance. This turns out to be a half-hearted attempt at best. Presumably a delaying tactic.
4. Over the next ~ 12 months VW CONTINUES to deceive the EPA with attempts to explain the results as technical problems. During this period VW continues to sell cars to the public.
5. EPA threatens to halt sales sometime in the last 3 months, and then VW admits to the fraud

I don't know if the EPA intends to pile on the fines, but obstruction sure seems like a reasonable charge.
I'd like to understand what virtual reality the VW decision makers operate in. None of these decisions seem rational to me.

I'm guessing this also happened:
0.1. VW "researchers" surreptiously discover EPA testing protocol.
0.2. VW researchers pass on their findings to VW engineers.

Of course this assumes EPA were smart enough to keep their testing protocol in-house.

 

[Todd_y]

Hey, VW (or should we just call you guys "pants-on-fire"), if you give me a hot trade in value for my TDI on a new GTI 5-door all is forgiven. I'll take the DSG, the "performance" trim level, Carbon steel whatever-the-hell for colour, leather most defs (do you even have to ask, cloth is for plebs), and throw in the tech package please. I need it by Friday. Thanks.

 

[BB62]

I have seen it posted elsewhere that VW ought to bring back the old CEO (Piech?), but wasn't the alleged "cheating" done on his watch?

 

[NickMK6TDI]

It doesn't matter what the findings will be. The intended effect has been achieved. Americans don't like diesel. ...again. especially from no-good, 'cheatin' car makers like VW. The public will keep an eye on them for years. They will now look into hybrids and traditional gas powered cars, ...again


thus the TDI-vs-Gas battle is settled. TDI lost. Let this be a lesson to those who want to challenge the status quo. Americans can be happy with 35mpg gas cars and 49mpg hybrids.

tell me that's not political...

Completely agree

Here I come Stage 2 Malone + Diesel Dubs Downpipe