Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[ccbsecu]

Ive done nothing to mine except get rid of the run flats. Even in stock tune the ability of the car to effortlessly gain speed is just mesmerizing, even after owning it for three years.

With tune and 'other' work....335d would beat the pants off my M3 in almost all aspects...I had a E93 335i with a Dinan tune and other goodies, it was north of 400 hp/lb ft as well...

Your garage list is impressive...RESPECT.

I am also a gear head. Grew up under the hood of a 69 Cuda and a couple 69/70 Mustangs...

 

[peterdaniel]

And yet no one has said anything about what the emissions are with the renewable fuels such as HPR....

 

[rustycat]

Heres a real question.

If this does severely negatively effect our cars in mpg and performance, is the only recourse we have, within reason, class action?

I cant see individuals having the financial capital to fight vw in a one on one fight and come out ahead.

I'd be happy if they just left me alone and honored my warranty, but we all know the epa won't be satisfied with that solution.

Class action would be great IF YOU ARE THE LAWFIRM making the billable hours. You would receive less in a class action suit than a $50 gift certificate from VW.
Now, the Gov. could do the same as they did with the Dodge Ram trucks and make Chrysler offer to buyback the truck at a 10% premium to high bluebook.

 

[arcticcat93]

Seeing everyone else is throwing around wild idea's, how about a simply solution that lets everybody win(especially the current TDI owners stuck in the middle of this.)

1) VW pays some exorbitant fine for cheating on NOx emissions.
2) The EPA grandfathers the effected used vehicles (new vehicles must meet NOx specifications.)

Wins:
1) The EPA gets there moment in glory for catching cheaters.
2) Current TDI owners do not have to worry about the large investment they have in their car.
3) The federal government gets a nice chunk of money in the general fund which they will then immediately spend.
4) VW gets to move on from this fiasco without going bankrupt from every lawyer in the US suing them because the software 'fix' altered the cars.

Now I wounder how much longer this thread will go...

what about the premature dpf failures of currently owned cars that is caused by this flawed emission system on the CR? Especially now that this 'fraud' has been brought to light, don't you think they should be held accountable for their mistakes?? and by engineering and design of a proper system, not JUST paying off everyone in fines and some more little software updates that do nothing.

 

[hla44]

I just feel absolutely awful about this. I very much respect the environment, and I think the EPA is doing important work. I've always said the TDI seemed too good to be true. Awesome MPG, great performance, and unique in it's class and price range.

I always wondered why I was getting way better MPG then what the EPA's sticker said. It's been a great car so far, and now I just feel uncomfortable about it.

Really hope VW can "fix" this.

I feel the same. Just sick. This is my third TDI.

 

[texsize]

quote from Coorsleftfield's
Any thoughts on just buying a used junkyard ECU for the car and owning 2. one with the "update" and one original ?

I have one on order right now, expect Delivery in 4 days.
texsize 2013 jetta TDI

 

[ccbsecu]

I'll tell you this much. Our quant and blackbox groups have been very busy all weekend and this morning. Means a new algorithm is being put into our trading system so positions can be taken based on this and the upcoming wider net of investigations -- especially when I see some of the head traders that deal with FX/Euro exchanges having some long discussions with the folks that manage the US and international manufacturing/CPG areas.

"* VW shares plunge more than 20 pct, biggest one-day fall

* U.S. agency EPA says to widen probe to other carmakers

* Germany also to investigate carmakers' emissions data

* Daimler, BMW say not affected by U.S. emissions probe (Adds EPA widening probe, European Commission and VW labour head comments, updates shares)"

At 1530 GMT, VW shares were down 18.8 percent at 131.8 euros, after hitting a three-year low of 125.4 euros. Shares in Porsche SE, a holding company which controls 51 percent of VW's common stock, also plunged around 20 percent, while the European autos index was down 3.9 percent.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/21/usa-volkswagen-idINL5N11R0TU20150921

Yep - this will finger out to several others....I will be diligent to follow many associated that can/will be caught in the wake...

 

[SageBrush]

A diesel engine is not anywhere near as complex as that [hybrid].

I admittedly know little about diesel tech but I don't think anybody says the diesel engine is complex. The transmission, OTOH, is a monster judging by pictures. The emission control technologies do seem complex and multiple:

1. High Pressure direct fuel injection
2. Variable valves (?)
3. LNT
4. SCR
5. Cat converter
6. Particulate trap
7. EGR
8. Soot burn mechanism

Apologies ahead of time for errors or omissions.

For comparison, a Prius:

• Large traction battery
• Two large motor/generators
• No starter
• No alternator
• No belts
• Very simple transmission
• EGR
• Cat converter
• Variable valves (?)

 

[hla44]

Seeing everyone else is throwing around wild idea's, how about a simply solution that lets everybody win(especially the current TDI owners stuck in the middle of this.)

1) VW pays some exorbitant fine for cheating on NOx emissions.
2) The EPA grandfathers the effected used vehicles (new vehicles must meet NOx specifications.)

Wins:
1) The EPA gets there moment in glory for catching cheaters.
2) Current TDI owners do not have to worry about the large investment they have in their car.
3) The federal government gets a nice chunk of money in the general fund which they will then immediately spend.
4) VW gets to move on from this fiasco without going bankrupt from every lawyer in the US suing them because the software 'fix' altered the cars.

Now I wounder how much longer this thread will go...

I don't think it sounds like EVERYONE wins here. I would still be driving a car that violates the very reason I purchased a "clean" diesel in the first place. Because I thought it was clean. I would be disappointed with that resolution. I want a buy back or a swap for a non-TDI model.

 

[rhino4evr]

a "buy back" seems like a pipe dream to me. Especially if they can "fix" the problem, by detuning the engine.

EDIT: I should mention that Re-sale value isn't a huge problem for me, as I typically run my vehicles to the ground. I think the bigger issue is the idea of a reduction in performance/MPG, which is a primary reason for purchasing the vehicle in the first place.

 

[aliasbane]

I feel the same. Just sick. This is my third TDI.

I feel really bad about this and kinda pissed.

I am a first time car owner of a 2013 Passat TDI SEL, bought 2 years ago.

Just hitting my 30,000 mile service, about 400 miles to go...

and I really am at a loss... I bought the care knowing it was supposed to be good and get mileage way over the EPA rating........ I average about 550mpg a tank.... I'm just a sad panda right now, along with the wind noise gripe I have....

 

[scrubber]

So I'm due for my $800 40k service.

Separate subject, but that seems very high. Is everybody else paying that?

 

[rustycat]

Just a small wager: I'll bet the Class Action Scumbag Law firms start advertising on this Forum for clients....

 

[hla44]

Class action would be great IF YOU ARE THE LAWFIRM making the billable hours. You would receive less in a class action suit than a $50 gift certificate from VW.
Now, the Gov. could do the same as they did with the Dodge Ram trucks and make Chrysler offer to buyback the truck at a 10% premium to high bluebook.

I would be most pleased with a buy back. In fact, that is almost the only resolution that would please me.

 

[transmit]

And yet no one has said anything about what the emissions are with the renewable fuels such as HPR....

Propel claims a 14% reduction in NOx over petroleum diesel so this helps but probably won't be enough to meet EPA standards.

http://dieselhpr.com/learn-more

 

[colekicker]

So VWoA has really has few options with the EPA. They have to account for the cars that are on the road not in compliance. They must have a full list of them and have an answer on each car or face the max penalty on each instance.

As owners, we can refuse to comply with what VWoA wants. VWoA would then face a fine. The way I see it, they can either pay me or pay the fine.

Now, with the fine looking like it's over $30,000 per instance, I'd probably be happy with $20,000 and they take my car. I'd go get something else. They would pay me less than the EPA and would have an accounting of the vehicle.

I'd then take that $20,000 and put it towards a compliant TDI.

 

[lynnejohn]

what about the premature dpf failures of currently owned cars that is caused by this flawed emission system on the CR? Especially now that this 'fraud' has been brought to light, don't you think they should be held accountable for their mistakes?? and by engineering and design of a proper system, not JUST paying off everyone in fines and some more little software updates that do nothing.

You seem to have missed my point. The grandfather is only for emissions. Arguments for poor engineering on HPFP's and DPF's is for another very long thread.

 

[Aquaticmind]

We're just going to disagree about this. Illegal dumping still happens with regularity despite it being illegal. Market pressures are greater than the EPA, too. People want a cleaner environment companies will capitalize on it wherever it makes sense. Some will lie and some of those will get caught (it seems). I guess the EPA regulations didn't prevent that, either.

Market forces tend to respond slowly to diffuse issues, like air pollution.Fixing those issues requires collective action. But you're right ILLEGAL dumping still happens and with the CWA those companies can be prosecuted for ILLEGALLY dumping. I would love to see stiffer penalties for illegal dumping but industry is strongly opposed to it.

Why is our air quality better than China, because of environmental regulations. Why is acid rain not as big of an issue today as it was in the 1970 -1990? Because environmental regulations enforced by the EPA reduced acceptable levels of S (and N) in power plant smoke stack and lowered the amount of S from diesel fuel. The EPA has made America a better, safer and cleaner place to life, even if they are not perfect.

 

[JM Popaleetus]

A diesel engine is not anywhere near as complex as that.

You're telling oilhammer how complex VW's engines are/are not?

That's a riot.

 

[newyorktdi]

I was thinking about the fact that VW will be fined $18 billion, but then I remembered, if you bought a new diesel back in 2009, you would get a tax credit. I wonder how that will play into all of this...

 

[Borsig]

Im not inclined to accept class action. I think class action is pre mature since we dont know the outcome.

If I am left alone, and my warranty honroed, a small token for false advertising would be nice.

If I lose any amount of power or economy - even 2mpg, then its hammer down time as far as I am concerned.

Or they can replace my 2015 TDI SEL with a 2015 TSI SEL and send me a check for the difference in MSRP. We know that wont happen.

Buybacks, LOL. Right. This is VW. $200 loyalty card.

The only buyback will be a federally mandated one, IF the cars cannot be made to comply with spec.

The result will likely be: cars made to fall in to spec with moderate to significant fuel economy and performance hit (10-20% likely) Think 8-10MPG hit on non urea cars - urea cars -???. Devaluation due to TDi losing the main benefit - it now gets the same FE as a gasser TSI, but diesel is more - huge hit in value, no one wants them.
VW compensates owners with $200 gift cards for service / parts / driver gear
FED mandates VW extends emissions warranty to 150K(?) miles.

Thats your likely solution.
Oh and Class action lawsuit members will see about $50, while the law firm gets about 500,000.00.

 

[arcticcat93]

You seem to have missed my point. The grandfather is only for emissions. Arguments for poor engineering on HPFP's and DPF's is for another very long thread.

they shouldn't be given a grandfather option when the specs of the laws were in place before they sold the cars to customers. period.

grandfather'ing' is intended to cover vehicles produced before an emissions law was put into place

 

[kydsid]

Add three more zeroes to the lawyers total Borsig

 

[wilcharl]

Am I the only one that finds it funny that this week kicks off EPA Pollution Prevention (P2) Week

 

[applejacks]

a "buy back" seems like a pipe dream to me. Especially if they can "fix" the problem, by detuning the engine.

A buyback seems almost as a guarantee in my opinion, if the fix is a detune and lessening the capabilities.

 

[x10003q]

I was thinking about the fact that VW will be fined $18 billion, but then I remembered, if you bought a new diesel back in 2009, you would get a tax credit. I wonder how that will play into all of this...

Where are these facts that VW will be fined $18 billion? Caterpillar was fined $2.5 million over 590,000 diesel engines that were non-compliant. They, too, lied about the engines.

 

[imurrx]

A little interesting point, in my state (the great COMMON wealth of Mass) if a vehicle fails inspection the insurance is invalid until fixed. Now I heard such on a radio talk program, so who knows - that's similar to the internet.

So had vehicle inspected which gives me a year now.

Second point, has anyone done a study (real one) that correlates millage to pollutant output? A little more pollutants. 2%. but mileage goes up 30% ?

In Mass, if your vehicle fails you have 60 days to fix it and you can still drive it with a rejection sticker. If you are still unable to fix it for emissions issues you can apply for a waiver (either excemption or hardship reasons).

 

[rhino4evr]

So VWoA has really has few options with the EPA. They have to account for the cars that are on the road not in compliance. They must have a full list of them and have an answer on each car or face the max penalty on each instance.

As owners, we can refuse to comply with what VWoA wants. VWoA would then face a fine. The way I see it, they can either pay me or pay the fine.

Now, with the fine looking like it's over $30,000 per instance, I'd probably be happy with $20,000 and they take my car. I'd go get something else. They would pay me less than the EPA and would have an accounting of the vehicle.

I'd then take that $20,000 and put it towards a compliant TDI.

So despite this being dream thinking. I'll throw water on something else.

What is a "compliant TDI"? They don't exist at this moment. Who is to say VW can even manufacture a "compliant TDI" without making HUGE changes to the engine, and other components. How long will that take to produce for 500k people? (in America alone).

If they did some sort of buy back if won't be for another TDI, that's for sure.

 

[maybe368]

Where are these facts that VW will be fined $18 billion? Caterpillar was fined $2.5 million over 590,000 diesel engines that were non-compliant. They, too, lied about the engines.

The stockholders have already fined them 16 billion...Mark

 

[sandydeb]

For comparison, a Prius:

• (?)

The only 'mileage' upside from a Prius (or any other 'hybrid') comes from regenerative braking. Absent that, it is just a normal gasser with a weak engine and lighter components lugging around heavy batteries.

Without the political kickbacks in the form of tax benefits, that complex regenerative braking system would not recover any costs and the technology would never pick up like it has failed in the rest of the world.