Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[JBell]

They. Admitted. To. It.

Source?

 

[no-blue-screen]

Oh joy. Well when I took mine in for the first oil change a couple months ago they flashed mine for a federal emissions update. My fuel economy and performance is unchanged as far as I can tell. It sounds like there is now going to be another update and the dealers will likely be told to "perform the flash when the vehicle is in for service". Because of the nature of the issue here I think it would be difficult to opt out unless you avoid the dealer and don't have regular emission testing in your state for diesels. All speculation on my part....but I am not ready to sound the alarm bells yet...I want to see how this plays out.

 

[JBell]

Not likely. Id say prove it. I will not accept any "repairs" willingly that reduce my economy. I will simply avoid the dealer id they are forcing it. Otherwise ill jusr sell my 2015 and find an attorney to sue them

This is going to be a mandatory federal emissions recall. You don't have much say in this, unfortunately. If you want to drive the car on US roads, I see no other option. Welcome to big/over reaching government.

 

[ditzer252]

Can someone please explain why VW would install the defeat device in the first place? If the cars are capable of passing EPA tests and advertised MPG are based on EPA tests, then I don't see what would motivate VW to "cheat." Is there a defect in the way TDIs are engineered that the "cheat" is compensating for?

 

[Sigforty]

I am not sure if anyone has the tables, but the change in Passat's complying with the regulations has to do with EPA tier changes. In 2014 the EPA adopted Tier 3 emissions, and I am guessing at that point the Passat SCR system could no longer meet the standards. I am wondering if for all the SCR equipped vehicles they could increase the SCR system efficiency or if it uses too much urea to be cost effective?

 

[compu_85]

Source?

The PDF linked in the first post...

-J

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

If you read the articles, VW has already admitted guilt in the software scheme. At this point, they have no challenge.

They admitted that they did design the software to specifically pass the EPA test. That doesn't mean they're guilty of anything.

The EPA says "The car must pass this test" so VW makes the car pass the test.

The EPA did not require the car to pass some other test that consists of real world driving conditions, so VW didn't make it do that.

I guess it's lying by omission on VW's part. They made the car pass the test that it was required to pass. They just didn't elaborate on the fact that it ONLY passes the test and nothing else.

I'd say there's some legal wiggle room for VW and a whole bunch of lawyers are going to get rich.

 

[ymz]

Why they did it is another story that I'm dying to hear.

I'm afraid that by the time the story actually comes out, you may indeed be already dead... (of old age, I might add...)

Yuri

 

[bhtooefr]

The feds have made ridiculously high standards more for advancing an agenda than protecting us.

http://engineering.berkeley.edu/2009/03/ozone-weekend-effect

Smog does cause serious health problems, and reducing nitrogen oxides does actually reduce smog (at least once you get them reduced below the peak level - the weekend effect being when they're above peak). (This is actually not how I thought things worked before, and I've now had to remove a link from my signature that went contrary to that.)

Also, nitrogen oxides can form acid rain.

 

[Borsig]

This is going to be a mandatory federal emissions recall. You don't have much say in this, unfortunately. If you want to drive the car on US roads, I see no other option. Welcome to big/over reaching government.

Then the car will never see a dealer. Period.

When they make the payment, they can add the "update"

I don't react well to anyone "forcing" anything on me. Period. It only makes my resistance more resolute.

 

[TDI_Rocks]

Buying a vehicle back does not absolve them of fines. The buy-back (or repairs) would be in addition to any fines levied.

ya and how many times has a corporation made a "deal" oh if we buy them back and destroy them you can absolve us of fine..hmmmm

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Source?

Post number one, click the link to the EPA's notice of violation, scroll half way down page 4.

 

[johnmharte]

For those of us in non-testing states and out of warranty... I 2nd what a few have already said.... bring on the mods.

I expect any new VW flash to hurt performance or longevity, I might as well go full delete route. After VW fixes my leaking pano roof drains... then... no more dealer.
I say this having one Mercedes w124 300D in the family.

 

[bhtooefr]

They admitted that they did design the software to specifically pass the EPA test. That doesn't mean they're guilty of anything.

The EPA says "The car must pass this test" so VW makes the car pass the test.

The EPA did not require the car to pass some other test that consists of real world driving conditions, so VW didn't make it do that.

I guess it's lying by omission on VW's part. They made the car pass the test that it was required to pass. They just didn't elaborate on the fact that it ONLY passes the test and nothing else.

I'd say there's some legal wiggle room for VW and a whole bunch of lawyers are going to get rich.

Except they specifically monitor for the test, and then disable/reduce the effectiveness of emissions controls when not on the test.

That in itself is illegal.

 

[peterdaniel]

Funny, I wonder how my 2003 TDI Beetle does emissions wise when I run HPR renewable fuel... Maybe these dumb dumbs at the EPA should be more concerned about the fuel than the results..

 

[quattroa4m]

The bigger concern here is, “Is it even possible for the TDIs in question to pass NOx emission requirements?” This sounds like an overly simplistic question, as the first kneejerk response would be, “Sure, you can do it in firmware.” However, how about issues like drivability, mileage, performance, and the effect on emission systems (i.e. reduced life, etc)?

This is a twofold problem as the potential ‘fix’ may satisfy the EPA, but ultimately screw VW owners. While prior “agreements” with other car manufacturers have somewhat compensated customers they were not nearly as complex as this issue has the potential to be.

 

[davidlp]

Smog does cause serious health problems, and reducing nitrogen oxides does actually reduce smog.....

Also, nitrogen oxides can form acid rain.

That doesn't really address what I said. Ridiculously low standards don't really help. When you fail to have reasonable standards that can be met at a reasonable cost (thinking industry) you drive industry and jobs overseas to places like China and India, which are basically enormous Superfund sites. Cities you can't breathe in, rivers with no life whatsoever, etc. Unintended consequences of do-gooders. The environmentalists love to talk in global terms, so maybe they ought to worry about China instead of getting us to impossibly low levels. Overall U.S. car emissions are so tiny these days, and does anyone even talk about acid rain anymore? The problem with the govt is when the problem is fixed they squeeze even harder. One car or truck going down the road in need of an engine overhaul or major tune-up, spewing smoke, makes more pollution than a thousand others. Get that vehicle off the road and leave the rest of us alone.

 

[Borsig]

The bigger concern here is, “Is it even possible for the TDIs in question to pass NOx emission requirements?” This sounds like an overly simplistic question, as the first kneejerk response would be, “Sure, you can do it in firmware.” However, how about issues like drivability, mileage, performance, and the effect on emission systems (i.e. reduced life, etc)?

This is a twofold problem as the potential ‘fix’ may satisfy the EPA, but ultimately screw VW owners. While prior “agreements” with other car manufacturers have somewhat compensated customers they were not nearly as complex as this issue has the potential to be.

Yep. And the government would cut YOUR throat and rape your wallet in half a heartbeat asv long as you met those standards. Car gets 29 mpg now? Don't care. Comply, peasant.

Do any of you really think vw would have risked this over 3 mpg?

Either the economy hit is huge, or the car couldn't comply without it.

Take your pick.

 

[aja8888]

Source?

One source:

http://www.theguardian.com/business...a-investigate-volkswagen-clean-air-violations

 

[newyorktdi]

If these allegations are true, I am shocked Volkswagen would do something like this. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[learningneverends]

The story gets little updates online as the day goes on. CNBC, Fox News etc. I'm not talking politics or whatever but to quote one article 'The Obama administration on Friday directed Volkswagen to recall nearly a half million cars from the road, saying the German automaker used software intentionally designed to circumvent environmental standards for reducing smog.' The article went on to talk about the Obama Administration saying VW had 'intent' etc. etc. As others have pointed out a device or software designed to pass the car when tested but to run better the rest of the time seems fine to me. It does not prove intent to fail the rest of the time but rather proves intent to pass some of the time. Years ago when I took the SAT's I studied and did well. That was my intent. If I took the SAT a year later and did poorly would that prove that my lack of study was 'intent' to do poorly? No. I like VW more because of this revelation. Anyone who lives in the real world knows you have to do what you have to do sometimes. Especially with the crazy government. Like Bill Clinton said 'what is the meaning of is?'

 

[wrpercival]

Volkswagen Is Told to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software

This may be related to the recent recall that began a couple of months ago.

The Environmental Protection Agency has issued VW a notice of violation accusing it of breaking the law by installing software known as a “defeat device” in 4-cylinder Volkswagen and Audi vehicles from model years 2009-15.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/b...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[VeeDubTDI]

The test is to verify that the vehicle will be emissions compliant while traveling down the road. VW cheated on the test.

 

[nectarguru]

Funny that this would happen to me with the first new car I've ever purchased. Earlier this year I had to make a decision, either buy a house or a new car. My Mk4 Golf was falling apart at an exponential rate, so I decided the car was the better option. After waiting 3 months for my Mk7 to arrive I tossed the dealer a check for $11,500 and drove home proud.

Then I had to wake up today to this crap. I've been telling people for years that I'm a TDI guy for life, but who knows if that'll even be possible in the coming decades.

This one hits right in the pills. Whatever, "updates" will be required on these vehicles will certainly toss their appeal right out the window.

 

[bhtooefr]

http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us

I believe this is the original WVU study that found these problems.

 

[newyorktdi]

The test is to verify that the vehicle will be emissions compliant while traveling down the road. VW cheated on the test.

Yeah, or at least as of now they have alleged to have cheated. Completely different from the SAT analogy.

 

[bhtooefr]

Read the original PDF linked in the first post.

VW admitted to cheating, when told that they wouldn't get any 2016 diesels certified unless they could explain why their cars were doing so much worse than the tests indicated they should perform.

 

[raybo]

They admitted that they did design the software to specifically pass the EPA test. That doesn't mean they're guilty of anything.

The EPA says "The car must pass this test" so VW makes the car pass the test.

The EPA did not require the car to pass some other test that consists of real world driving conditions, so VW didn't make it do that.

I guess it's lying by omission on VW's part. They made the car pass the test that it was required to pass. They just didn't elaborate on the fact that it ONLY passes the test and nothing else.

I'd say there's some legal wiggle room for VW and a whole bunch of lawyers are going to get rich.

I think that you summed up the issue perfectly. They were asked to pass a test and they did. There was no language that said the car had to operate with the same settings as the test. Gotta love the language of the law!

 

[learningneverends]

Yeah, or at least as of now they have alleged to have cheated. Completely different from the SAT analogy.

The emissions test should be done while the car is driving down the road if the EPA wants to know what the car is doing while driving down the road. And while they are at it they should do the test for 100,000 miles since there will be variations along the way. And when they are done sorting through my trash can and my recycling can maybe they can put a trash inspector at all public trash cans to make sure all the peasants are all compliant? I guess my point is cheating the head cheats is fine with me.

 

[tomo366]

WOW just Wow! Love my really nice 2015 Jetta SEL TDI......
I just had the 10,000 mile service and they performed a 2309 ECM update car runs great no change is FE