Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[bubbagumpshrimp]

I dont see examples of this in the realm of automobile/manufacturer litigation

If you have solid examples of auto litigation that supports some of the more "fragile" arguments I'm all ears

As far as I've read...there are literally zero comparable examples, where automotive suits are concerned. That is what makes this case so interesting. As multiple law professors have stated in news pieces...this case is unique in that before a trial even starts...guilt has already been established. For that reason, there is literally no bar from which to measure this case against to estimate compensation. It could be $500 and "my bad"...or it could be buyback at purchase price plus $5,000+ damages. I realize that last one is ridiculously outside the scope of reasonable expectations, but my point is that no one has any idea of even a ballpark estimate of what the result will be.

As far as the whiny snowflake thing...they don't have to prove anything. Keep in mind that VW already admitted to the fraud. The only thing left to determine will be how to compensate customers.

 

[gerry100]

Value of used TDIs are currently effected by short term news and emotions.

Longer term, the value will depend on the impact of the "fix" we expect in 2016.

Most likely, My TDI will be the same car with diminished fuel economy and drivability.
How diminished will ultimately determine the value.

I see no reason to make any decisions until the "fix" is revealed and reviewed.

The other factor yet to be seen is what VW will do to keep 500,000 owners ( and their friends and families) as future potential customers.

'11 jetta TDI is my 4th VW and I like them but their product is not so special that I can't switch to many other good offerings out there

Its not too early to take a wait and see approach

 

[jayp111]

As far as I've read...there are literally zero comparable examples, where automotive suits are concerned. That is what makes this case so interesting. As multiple law professors have stated in news pieces...this case is unique in that before a trial even starts...guilt has already been established. For that reason, there is literally no bar from which to measure this case against to estimate compensation. It could be $500 and "my bad"...or it could be buyback at purchase price plus $5,000+ damages. I realize that last one is ridiculously outside the scope of reasonable expectations, but my point is that no one has any idea of even a ballpark estimate of what the result will be.

As far as the whiny snowflake thing...they don't have to prove anything. Keep in mind that VW already admitted to the fraud. The only thing left to determine will be how to compensate customers.

There are lots of reasonably similar cases where other car companies have admitted to fraud as well.

The issue is a question of whether or not individuals can sufficiently demonstrate they were "Harmed"

I dont see that happening here.....hurt feelings generally speaking dont carry much weight in a court of law

VW is going to argue that it provided compensation already when it comes to court cases and they will be seen as acting in good faith.

Outside of cars being fixed to comply with emmissions standards and associated penalties to gov I dont see individuals getting any compensation

 

[kitarkus]

Gen 1 vs. Gen 2&3

The speculation is that Gen 2 and 3 cars will simply require software fixes. It would be hard for Gen 2 or 3 owners to expect compensation unless MPG or performance significantly suffers.

The Speculation for Gen 1 owners is that these vehicles could require additional equipment bolted on to the vehicle to reduce NOX, exhaust system modification, and/or more. Aside from the potential adverse changes to Gen 1 fuel economy or performance....the Gen 1 folks CLEARLY did not buy the car that the proposed speculative 'fix' embodies. Gen 1 re-sale will NOT be good should the speculations for potential repairs be true. Hell...it may cost VW more to repair the Gen 1's than they are worth.

I do not expect some 'across the board' compensation for VW TDI owners. Given what we THINK we know based upon news reports....the Gen 1 folks have the most to cry about....and particularly the late model 2013-2014 Gen 1 folks who have yet to depreciate their own vehicles with time/mileage.

All speculation of course....based upon the only news that we have.

 

[peterdaniel]

I'm going to laugh when all you guys thinking you're going to get big payouts get squat, lol.
People dumping these cars for pennies on the dollar are idiots.

^^^ This 100000000000000000%

 

[jason_]

It's just drama. World will still spin, sun will still rise and set.

Petroleum will continue to burned.

Sent from my s-off'ed m7 with cm11!

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

There are lots of reasonably similar cases where other car companies have admitted to fraud as well.

The issue is a question of whether or not individuals can sufficiently demonstrate they were "Harmed"

I dont see that happening here.....hurt feelings generally speaking dont carry much weight in a court of law

VW is going to argue that it provided compensation already when it comes to court cases and they will be seen as acting in good faith.

Outside of cars being fixed to comply with emmissions standards and associated penalties to gov I dont see individuals getting any compensation

Harmed physically? No. Harmed financially? Yes. It's not something that will be hard to demonstrate, either. I.e. Trade-in values before the news broke vs. Trade-in values after the news broke.

People that liked their cars and had no interest in getting rid of them prior to the news breaking...I agree...this is a non issue for them. Just a bump in the road. People that were thinking about getting rid of their car and can no longer do so without taking a significant resale value hit...there's a valid issue there.

 

[Cayman]

Most of the members of my Miata club are older than you so that is no excuse!

I'm 54 and drive a Cayman.. very happily

 

[jayp111]

Harmed physically? No. Harmed financially? Yes. It's not something that will be hard to demonstrate, either. I.e. Trade-in values before the news broke vs. Trade-in values after the news broke.

People that liked their cars and had no interest in getting rid of them prior to the news breaking...I agree...this is a non issue for them. Just a bump in the road. People that were thinking about getting rid of their car and can no longer do so without taking a significant resale value hit...there's a valid issue there.

Try making the argument that you were harmed by the banking/home loan debaucle and that an individual should be compensated because their home value pre crash was greater than post crash.

Individuals are going to have just as much luck trying to be compensated for the emissions issue as they would trying to recoup harm from missing jonny or sally's soccer game because their TDI broke down

I'm not trying to be a jerk....just trying to be realistic....individuals are not going to be viewed as having been "Harmed" and are not going to see compensation in any meaningful way.

 

[ray96disco]

I'm 54 and drive a Cayman.. very happily

I'm 58 and just sold my Boxster S, which was my daily driver. but not because I couldn't get in and out of it. An absolute blast to drive. One of the most fun cars I've ever owned. Third gear was too cool. You could put it in 3rd and drive around as low as 18 and as high as 96!. Docile in town, a terror on the track. Definitely some issues with the water-cooled P-cars but, wow, what a ride.

I sold it knowing full well this maelstrom was coming and I was going to be reimbursed in full for the purchase price plus tt&l and get damages after driving it 34k+ miles!

 

[CHenry]

15 years ago for me a Miata would have been fun, in my mid 50's not so much can't see dragging my arse around on the ground anymore
The beetle in my avatar is very fun to drive around in

You need to try the ND MX-5. You may reconsider your position, arse-wise and thought-wise.

 

[jhinsc]

Being disgusted by a dealer not offering what one thinks their trade-in is worth is a useless, futile waste of emotions. It happens daily with any make trade-in at any dealer. Yes, our TDI values are down because of dieselgate, but they're also down because fuel prices are way down too. Just because one 'receives' a better offer from BMW dealer does not mean the offer was good either. What I see is an owner dumping their vehicles in exchange for a different brand and losing $'s - but it's only money to them. I was offered $18k for mine about a month ago at my VW dealer, and considering the dieselgate headlines, was surprised it was that high. Granted it's still short of what it should have been. But I got a great deal on it when I bought it, I have the $1000 Goodwill money, and with the hiring of Feinberg, likely more compensation will be coming our way. IMO - I think I'll come out ahead and probably see my TDI purchase as being one of the best automotive purchases I've made in my life, both for the care itself and financially. Yes, it's a big unknown what will happen in the end, but VW wants to get this PR nightmare behind it as quickly as possible and the only way to do that is with money and action to resolve as quickly as possible.
One comment on the predicted HUGE fines coming for VW: it will be big, but including the cost of remedies to fix, not enough to bankrupt the company. What purpose would that serve - job losses, loss of tax revenue, etc. Damage to the environment? What about the methane gas leak going on in CA and can't be stopped for another 3-4 months? Way more damaging than all our TDI's combined.

 

[peterdaniel]

I believe but not sure, it is against US law to fine a company enough to make it go bankrupt...

 

[JSWTDI09]

I believe but not sure, it is against US law to fine a company enough to make it go bankrupt...

Maybe so, but it is possible to sue a company into bankruptcy. It has been done before.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[peterdaniel]

Maybe so, but it is possible to sue a company into bankruptcy. It has been done before.

Have Fun!

Don

Which would serve no one.... In fact it would benefit VW... Anyone remember GM? Chrysler? The "NEW" VW would not be responsible for the "OLD" VW's problems

 

[romad]

I dont see examples of this in the realm of automobile/manufacturer litigation

If you have solid examples of auto litigation that supports some of the more "fragile" arguments I'm all ears

I DON'T support them! I was saying don't underestimate the stupidity of the U.S judges. There are probably several that would support such asinine arguments.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

Which would serve no one.... In fact it would benefit VW... Anyone remember GM? Chrysler? The "NEW" VW would not be responsible for the "OLD" VW's problems

I agree that it wouldn't benefit anyone to intentionally fine them out of existence. However, you can't really compare GM or Chrysler to VW in this case though. Why? VW is a German company. Who knows how their bankruptcy laws work (if they permit such a thing for corporations.

 

[dmarsingill]

I'm going to laugh when all you guys thinking you're going to get big payouts get squat, lol.

People dumping these cars for pennies on the dollar are idiots.

Not to mention.....once you cut ties with VW, it will be up to you to get any money from them anyway. More for us!!!(not that I think I am owed anything)

Donald

 

[goes2fast]

I live in Minnesota, currently out in the country. I've driven to and from work in all our legendary blizzards in front wheel drive golfs. Driven dirt roads in spring breakup when they were so muddy and collapsing that the pickup trucks tried to stay in the middle of the road while the Golf danced around them. Hauled 4 people and with 2 wheelchairs and 2 bikes on the roof too, folded the seats down and slept in the back when all the motels were full. Moved a friend and saved her the cost of a rental truck, just drove the JSW down to Florida with 320 kg. of motorcycle parts plus me, no problem. That was a light load, two years ago hauled a motorcycle down in the JSW. No hitch on the JSW, but got one on the A4 Golf and it regularly tows up to 750 kg.. I've got a 4WD pickup, but my TDIs have hauled everything I've needed to haul so I haven't insured and driven it for several years.

Think about it... The Golf and Ford Focus are the best selling cars in Europe, and SUVs and pickups are rare there. If they can live quite well without big ass SUVs and pickups, why can't we?

Because of the US mentality, bigger is better, plus current low gas prices.

 

[jen_madcity]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but an excellent engineering and business analysis of why it happened and how they did it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao

This was excellent. Fascinating in fact. Thank you for posting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[GlennGlenn]

Got my Goodwill Package today...went to the Dealership to get it activated.
This translates into:

a set of tires - Michelins and wiper blades ($500 Dealership Card)
70K service, a Roku 4 and stuff off my Amazon 'Wish List' ($500 Credit Card)

I asked them about what they knew, were doing, when there would be a 'fix' for the TDI's, was told maybe next year...but it has to be approved by the EPA...lol..well OK.

Further they are taking TDI's in trade (2009 to 2012) all others are 'frozen', you can't buy, trade, beg-borrow-or-steal a 2015 or 2016.

So this causes the value of some TDI's to go up...in theory at least...
Dealers can't keep the older ones on the lots. People want these autos it seems...in spite of all this.

I have little confidence VW will do much more than this...and a CA lawsuit is a waste of time...you'll get squat back in 7 years.

I'd say 'take the money and run. I'm keeping mine...no gassser comes close to comparing as mileage goes. I can't afford 40K or more for a Volvo or Mercedes Diesel...sorry Chevy Cruz is a joke.

This statement coming from one who neither owns nor has driven one. Oh BTW, I haven't noticed Chevy in the news the past 4 months because " their" diesel fails emissions.

BTW, for those looking for reasons why the value of their TDI is dropping like a rock, it's primarily because the public has lost confidence in the vehicle and/or VW and the auctions are cognizant of this. I regularly follow the auctions as I have an account and the used ones >2 years old going through the chutes are getting creamed. They're not even selling the last two years and the dealerships are parking them in the back till resolution is met. I had a chance last month to pick up a 14 Passat Premium SEL TDI with DSG fully loaded that's stickered at about $34 K with only 7500 miles for less than $18 K . The market is currently killing these cars.

Enjoy your "goodwill" Mark, that may be about the best youre going to get.....

 

[07ktm250xc]

We got $1000 we weren't expecting..pretty cool..Thanks VW

Carry on with the entertainment...this has been fun to read.

 

[maybe368]

We got $1000 we weren't expecting..pretty cool..Thanks VW
Carry on with the entertainment...this has been fun to read.

We got defrauded by VW we weren't expecting, pretty sucky thanks VW

Carry on with the VW defending, this has not been fun...

 

[joeelmex]

Why didn't you get the 328d?

They only had 1 in stock and it was way over the price I was going to pay.

Ill give you 50 bucks for the VW cards.. You know... VW depreciation and all....

No thanks

Joeelmex,

Congratulations on your new BMWs. Enjoy them, and don't look back.

Thanks and my wife and I am enjoying them.

They were just taking advantage of your ignorance/sensitivity of the situation. If you had brought them to the ones north of ATL and not voiced your opinion and displeasure, you never know what would happen. Why didn't you just take them to CarMax in McDonough? They would have given you more money? Remember, VW doesn't own the dealer.

Donald

Donald actually the sales guy and I where having a blast talking and having fun looking at cars. Just to note, the VW dealership called me to activate my cards and asked if I was ready to trade them in and I was.

Like I stated I was feeling bad every day driving my cars 85 miles a day knowing I was spewing as much junk as the passenger bus. I was waiting to activate the cards and move on. I thought about CarMax but then I knew I was not buying a car from them.

I just wanted shared my experience with the VW dealership that I have personally dealt with since 2012. I even told the sales advisor, I deal with Dexter and he has the service records of both 2012 TDi's and all the service is being done here at the dealership.

Im not hurting from this ordeal they where good cars until the issue came out. Hope this information can help someone in the future. To be honest, it only hurts the VW dealer that I dealt with as I moved on to a new family.

On another note, I did ask the BMW dealership what they where going to do with them. They said they sell them directly to a whole-seller.

 

[RBTDI]

Some of the arguments that some precious little snowflakes are putting forth will be laughed out of court.

No snowflakes here....El Nino, you see

Love my TDI!

 

[k^2]

Let me share my experience today with the VW dealership as I went to activate the VW credit-cards. (This is at the only VW dealership South of Atlanta where I bought the cars originally on the same day) I own 2 2012 Tdi completely paid off. Both are premium models with the only difference is one being automatic and the other being manual. I was happy with them until this news broke out. I cant drive this every day knowing I am polluting as much as a bus. Don't want to get into an argument on this part with other members who don't mind the issue. That's my opinion and in good conscious I could not drive this anymore.


I checked KBB and 1 car should be worth 10K trade in value and the other should be wort 9k. (I dont know the price of the cars before the fiasco so I cant compare the loss for before and after) I went to the sales rep and I picked 2 VW cars a Tiguan nicely loaded for the wife and a golf for me. They wanted 26K for the golf. I wrote the following on the deal page, give me 10K for each of my cars, I will give you 2K in the gift cards I have, 1k in loyalty program and sell me the car for 23k. I will pay for TAX cash. Tiguan I will finance on a price we can agree on.

The sale rep talked about the Diesel Fiasco and he said he will see what they can do. He left and was talking to the managers for 30 minutes and he came back.

I kid you not when I say this, they offered me 6K for each car and no price break on the Golf. I told the sale rep that offer is insulting and he said those cars are not worth much. I said yes thanks to VW and I had no fault on it. We talked for another 15 minutes talking about the diesel fiasco and he left again to talk to this manager. He came back and they offered 7k for each car and no price adjustment on the golf still.

I said thanks for your time but no deal will be made. As I was leaving I saw the manager tell the sales guy make sure you have their number. (Not sure if this is for the future reference)

I was upset and felt disgusted with the offer from VW. My wife has been wanting the BMW X1 so I went to the BMW dealership. (Its right next door) They offered me 8,500 right off the bat and I negotiated on the price of the X1. I bought my wife a BMW X1 and traded in her Jetta Tdi. I then sold them my Jetta Tdi and bought me a BMW 328i. I have left the VW family and joined BMW family.

So just wanted to share my story on what happened in my situation in South Atlanta.

On other news if anyone wants to buy $1000.00 on VW gift cards please msg me. (Not the VISA ones, used them to for the payment on the X1) I also have about 2 gallons of OptiLube XPD LOCAL delivery for sale. Msg me. I will miss this community as you all have been very helpful.

Thanks

I am happy for you that you have the income to switch from a pair of VW to a pair of Beemers and care about the environment. For many of us it is not an option even to loose money on a trade in, and hence we will be the bad guys who don't care about the environment. I know that many people are ticked of at VW dealers offering them a below "fair" trade in value. The dealers run their businesses independent of VW corp and I don't think that VW corp will compensate them for loosing money on used car market. Don't blame dealers for VW screw up. If some of us might loose money in imaginary thousands the dealers are loosing in tens or hundreds thousands.

BTW My car still pollutes less than a 2006 TDI. People get so hysterical about this pollution issue. It is so relative. Somehow the guy who drives a 2006 TDI is a good guy but we are the bad ones. If for argument sake the government set the levels at 10 times higher for all the engines on the road beginning 2016, then we all would be huge polluters by tomorrow morning. Or lets imagine that VW pays a huge fine and EPA just legalizes current TDI's the way they are. Is the guilt factor going to disappear from the TDI owners then?

 

[dmarsingill]

I am happy for you that you have the income to switch from a pair of VW to a pair of Beemers and care about the environment. For many of us it is not an option even to loose money on a trade in, and hence we will be the bad guys who don't care about the environment. I know that many people are ticked of at VW dealers offering them a below "fair" trade in value. The dealers run their businesses independent of VW corp and I don't think that VW corp will compensate them for loosing money on used car market. Don't blame dealers for VW screw up. If some of us might loose money in imaginary thousands the dealers are loosing in tens or hundreds thousands.

BTW My car still pollutes less than a 2006 TDI. People get so hysterical about this pollution issue. It is so relative. Somehow the guy who drives a 2006 TDI is a good guy but we are the bad ones. If for argument sake the government set the levels at 10 times higher for all the engines on the road beginning 2016, then we all would be huge polluters by tomorrow morning. Or lets imagine that VW pays a huge fine and EPA just legalizes current TDI's the way they are. Is the guilt factor going to disappear from the TDI owners then?

I don't feel like a bad guy. In fact, I don't feel guilty at all. Like you said, it is way cleaner than the older diesels. It's probably cleaner than any car in 2006.

Donald

 

[Loafing]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but an excellent engineering and business analysis of why it happened and how they did it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao

Excellent! Thanks for posting. I wonder how VW dealt with NOx b4 SCR like my 09Jet.

 

[peterdaniel]

Guess what causes global warming? CO2... Guess what modern day GAS cars have on them? Converters that are designed to put out MORE CO2 than ever...


Funny how the EPA causes the real problems eh? Talk about danger to your health? When the atmosphere burns away... who ya gonna call?

 

[Keith63]

I was in a class action lawsuit years ago in relation to a health product. Judgement was for $8 million, I was able to retire on my $6.00 cut....lol. If you join one of these class actions, just remember your not going to get much back. I am keeping my Jetta TDI; and not joining a class action. I called VWOA and thanked them for the $1000.00 goodwill package, which btw they were under no obligation to provide. It's my hope that the fix will not harm my MPG, thats all I ask.