Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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romad

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Prescott, AZ
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2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
Still don't really care. Sorry. I just don't. High MPGs are what is important to me. Until we can stop importing thousands of tons of crap a day from China, I really think emissions requirements are questionable in light of fuel use.

You could quadruple the amount of 4 cylinder TDIs on the roads here, and it would not make a dent in the pollutant levels globally. And actually, it may HELP them given how little fuel TDIs use. It isn't like we are driving around in 12 MPG SUV pigs. :p
Damn straight! And most of those SUV pigs plus their in-bred pickup cousins don't have to even meet the emissions that TDIs are required to meet.
 

linux_author

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Fahrvergnügen
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Newsflash. VW will be required to provide to the IRS, the VINs of TDI owners who opted out of the emissions fix. The IRS will cross check the list with filiers who received tax credits. The IRS will deducted the credit from future refunds until the amount of the credit has been repaid.


Wow. Talk about recuperating tax dollars

;)
without a quoted source, i'd say nice troll...

also consider that there are still millions of autos on the road with defective Takata airbags - a *far* more serious problem:

http://www.safercar.gov/rs/takata/index.html

willie
on the diesel-sippin' Gulf of Mexico
 

romad

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2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
They've already spent millions of taxpayer dollars studying cow farts. Maybe we should just tax fat people? Good thing I've lost 85 pounds! I'll be in a lower tax bracket now! :D
No, they'll say you used a "defeat switch" to avoid the tax! After all, you did "switch" your metabolism to "defeat" weight gain.
 

Aquaticmind

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T
It's not fair that is "flyover people" should suffer for choosing not to live in an area shared with ten million other crazy people.

Car manufactures don't want multiple regulations to meet is a part of it and how would you feel if you moved to a city and tried to sell your car from mid-west standards but were told that you couldn't see your car in that state/city.. it would create a whole new set of issues.

You gotta ask yourself this: if this cheating scheme had never happened, how much lower would US pollution levels be, exactly? The answer, I suspect, is infinitesimal. We simply don't exist in sufficient numbers to make a real difference in overall or nitrogen oxides.
If that was the case smog would have been an issue in LA in before people moved there and wouldn't have gotten better once tougher emission standards were imposed. It may feel like we're to small to have an impact but there are a lot of us, and we are very busy, and we are really good at making pollution. Pollution controls have help keep kids from getting Asthma and extended American's health and life span's, as well as helped the economy in the long run.
 

iamatt

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And I wonder if this isn't all politics because VW is now the largest selling car manufacturer worldwide.

When you can't keep up, you tend to try to bring the others down. Toyota a few years ago is an example.

I'm with you. Who cares about nox whatever. VW is a definite threat to the USA. They are HUGE in China and other places. The emission thing is rather convenient. Queue up the EV's !
 

Aquaticmind

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ApriliaNut

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SoCal
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06 pkg 1 Jetta 191k w/Malone Stage 2
I wonder how much of that 80% is the result of growing corn to make ethanol to use in gasoline?

Don't even go there romad....we all know (or should know) that the gubbernment plays favorites continually.
Can we all say "agenda".???
993er and iamatt hit the nail on the head!
 
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romad

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The car should fit the climate. So why does someone like me who lives in a non industrial mostly rural area have to beholden to the same rules as someone in LA with its stagnate air and millions of cars? If I lived there I'd be all in on EVs, too. Instead, I live somewhere where my little 1.9 L engine's pollution is inconsequential when you factor in not just all the other honking big trucks and SUVs around but the agricultural vehicles as well.
Actually there are about 12 counties in the CPR that ARE exempt from emissions testing:

Alpine
Amador
Calaveras
Del Norte
Humboldt
Imperial
Inyo
Lake
Lassen
Mariposa
Mendocino
Modoc
Mono
Plumas
Sierra
Siskiyou
Trinity
Tuolumne
 

Aquaticmind

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The fines I've seen quoted ($37,5K/vehicle ???) that just total greed by the EPA and the government. Will that go to owners? --- No Way ... into their own greedy pockets so that they can fund more EPA disasters like in CO, NM, UT.

The money won't go the EPA, it will probably go into the general fund. The fine is suppose to be a deterrent to cheating the emission test, and the disasters in the CO, NM, UT is ultimately the fault of the mine owner who made his money then left American's to foot the bill for the cleanup. Also it was a private contractor working for the EPA that caused the spill. The mountains the region are littered with abandoned mines. Folks made their money and left you to foot the bill. They already leaks, spill and pollute the water, but don't get much media coverage.
 

tsingtao

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You can still build a TDI on VW's USA site, but when you want to see inventory, you get a message that they're out of stock.

They are. As they received a notice of violation on Friday, they don't have any that they can legally sell.
 

gnuworldorder

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Location
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2015 Golf TDI
You emissions are probably just a drop in the bucket then and there is probably little stomach in congress to increase pollution controls on the coke plant. So, drive and be happy, or move upwind.

ive always lived at the top of the ridge and if you go up wind you are in bum**** nowhere
 

mjLyco

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Let's see... my 2010 Golf TDI has 236lb/ft of torque, 2016 TSI only has 200, 2016 GTI has 258...

If VW wants to make this right, they can take my TDI and give me a GTI as an even swap.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
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None
It's worth noting that light duty trucks (under 8500 GVWR) are required to meet the same standards as cars under CARB LEV II (equivalent to Federal Tier 2 Bin 5) and Federal Tier 2 Bin 8. They are allowed higher fuel consumption, though.

From 8500 to 10,000 GVWR, things get a little strange. Under Federal emissions, an automaker can either certify as a MDPV, or if it's diesel, they can certify under heavy duty diesel regulations. MDPVs have to meet the same Tier 2 Bin 8 federal requirement as cars do.

California, however, treats this class as Medium Duty vehicles. For a LEV II MDV, NMOG is looser than Tier 2 Bin 10 (LEV I roughly), CO is the pre-2008 Tier 2 Bin 10 level, NOx is Tier 2 Bin 8, and PM and HCHO are Tier 2 Bin 11 MDPV. I believe this is the same as the Federal emissions for a diesel certified as a Heavy Duty vehicle in this class, though, but a gasoline vehicle actually has to meet the STRICTER Federal emissions in this case. (It's worth noting that LEV III and Tier 3 correct this to an extent, by adding the concept of MDPVs to California's laws.)
 

romad

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Im about to take our new wagon on a 4 day weekend thru the blue ridge parkway north to the end of skyline drive. Appalachia (my home), apple country, hikes up 4000 feet, and 4 days of park and skyline drive.

Ill get pics of me polluting the park with it, so certain memebrs here can call for my arrest and subsequent hanging.
I see a whole slew of "What did you do to your car today" posts: "I polluted the Blue Ridge Parkway"; "I polluted the Grand Canyon"; "I polluted the Arctic Ocean", etc.
 

dst5

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Don't even go there romad....we all know (or should know) that the gubbernment plays favorites continually.
Can we all say "agenda".???
993er and iamatt hit the nail on the head!
No but we can say paranoid anti government wackos lots of them in this conversation.
 

tsingtao

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The fines I've seen quoted ($37,5K/vehicle ???) that just total greed by the EPA and the government.
I think that is a standard Clean Air Act fine. A few years back when low sulfur diesel was still being sold at some stations I had a problem with a station not properly identifying their pumps with either the LSD or USLD sticker.

I looked it up on the American Petroleum Institute website and found that there was a $37,500 fine for each pump mislabelled or missing a sticker.

When I pointed this out to the station those labels went up so quick it would make your head spin.
 

aja8888

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Out of TDI's
Seeing everybody is on this thread today, I have an unrelated question. I have a service appointment to have my 2014 Passat TDI receive the 23N5 ECU update.

Should I cancel and wait to see if the *next* ECU update (assuming there will be one) covers this update?

I'm pretty sure the update is turbo related for cold weather, and I live in an area of Texas where cold weather is not frequent.
 

nj1266

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Golf
The company was evidently concerned that actually meeting the federal emissions standards would degrade the power of the engines, which it marketed as comparable in performance to gasoline engines. Meeting the standard would also undercut the fuel efficiency that is one of the main selling points of diesels.

The E.P.A. said on Friday that Volkswagen would be required to recall the affected vehicles for repairs to make them compliant with smog regulations. Car owners would not have to pay for the repairs. Many owners may not bother, though, because the changes are likely to reduce fuel consumption and performance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/international/volkswagen-shares-recall.html?_r=0
 

obie84

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2010 TDI Sportwagen
Newsflash. VW will be required to provide to the IRS, the VINs of TDI owners who opted out of the emissions fix. The IRS will cross check the list with filiers who received tax credits. The IRS will deducted the credit from future refunds until the amount of the credit has been repaid.


Wow. Talk about recuperating tax dollars

;)
I can't imagine any legal scenario in which energy efficiency tax credits granted to early purchasers of TDIs would have to be repaid to the government by owners. They have no responsibility whatsoever for the EPA violations.
Now, requiring Volkswagen to reimburse the U.S. government for the cost of those tax credits is another thing entirely, and a very likely one since Volkswagen aggressively promoted the tax incentives in their early marketing campaigns. That probably constitutes fraud against the U.S. government, if not the consumer also.
 

nj1266

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Seeing everybody is on this thread today, I have an unrelated question. I have a service appointment to have my 2014 Passat TDI receive the 23N5 ECU update.
Should I cancel and wait to see if the *next* ECU update (assuming there will be one) covers this update?
I'm pretty sure the update is turbo related for cold weather, and I live in an area of Texas where cold weather is not frequent.
I did the ECU upgrade and I did not notice an impact on my car's mpg or power.
 

powerfool

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Indianapolis Metro Area
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None anymore
Newsflash. VW will be required to provide to the IRS, the VINs of TDI owners who opted out of the emissions fix. The IRS will cross check the list with filiers who received tax credits. The IRS will deducted the credit from future refunds until the amount of the credit has been repaid.


Wow. Talk about recuperating tax dollars

;)
What tax credits are you referring to? I wasn't aware of any tax credits available to purchasers of VW diesels.
 

phatz314

Member
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Location
Mountain View, CA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
It's worth noting that light duty trucks (under 8500 GVWR) are required to meet the same standards as cars under CARB LEV II (equivalent to Federal Tier 2 Bin 5) and Federal Tier 2 Bin 8. They are allowed higher fuel consumption, though.

From 8500 to 10,000 GVWR, things get a little strange. Under Federal emissions, an automaker can either certify as a MDPV, or if it's diesel, they can certify under heavy duty diesel regulations. MDPVs have to meet the same Tier 2 Bin 8 federal requirement as cars do.

California, however, treats this class as Medium Duty vehicles. For a LEV II MDV, NMOG is looser than Tier 2 Bin 10 (LEV I roughly), CO is the pre-2008 Tier 2 Bin 10 level, NOx is Tier 2 Bin 8, and PM and HCHO are Tier 2 Bin 11 MDPV. I believe this is the same as the Federal emissions for a diesel certified as a Heavy Duty vehicle in this class, though, but a gasoline vehicle actually has to meet the STRICTER Federal emissions in this case. (It's worth noting that LEV III and Tier 3 correct this to an extent, by adding the concept of MDPVs to California's laws.)

Huh. Tier 2 bin 8 NOx is "only" 140mg per mile. Less than 3x the bin 5 standard of 50 mg. VW cheated to allow 10x-40x (that's average, folks, not peak).

So, our diesels-- mile for mile -- put out as much smog-causing NOx as around 5 to 15 SUVs. The lower CO2 emissions put out by our car is small consolation.

Edit: correction. Most light SUVs are covered by bin 5. So, 1 TDI = 10-40 Explorers. FAHRVEGNUGEN
 
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asolo

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FWIW...I suspect there will be an industry-wide re-examination of diesels before the dust settles.

I note EMD/Caterpiller cannot presently sell diesel locomotives because they can't make them comply. I note Mazda is now almost three years delayed in introducing their SkyActive diesel because of compliance issues. Appears to me this may be a "tip of the iceberg" moment. We shall see.
 

Cool Breeze

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What tax credits are you referring to? I wasn't aware of any tax credits available to purchasers of VW diesels.
At around 2008-9 early adopters of the new TDI were eligible for a rebate/credit because the vehicle was very clean from an emissions / efficiency perspective. TDI's had the biggest $ rebate. The IRS only allowed a fixed number of qualified vehicles from each manufacturer and VW reached its allotment very quickly.

I qualified for ~$300 with my 335d (MY2010).
 
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