Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[bizzle]

But the emissions problem caused the resale value. KBB is down 13% for VW Diesels since the scandal. VW as a whole is down 7% after the scandal. Now its not VW's fault that I no longer have a need for the car. But without the scandal I could have walked away without negative equity.
But it is what it is. I am putting storage insurance on the car tomorrow and will wait a few months to see if the dust settles.

That's his point. Even if the 13% is entirely attributable to dieselgate (and I'm of the opinion that it is *not*), that would still only account for a loss of $X - $2500 for most of the impacted cars.

Losing 20%-50% is either something going wonky with the purchase and initial loan or normal depreciation. The people posting that they bought their cars for $30K a year or two ago and can't trade it in for more than $17K or can't find buyers now are not accounting for normal depreciation or the fact that the market is soft for diesels and used cars at this time of year normally. The scandal did not drop $10K off the value of their cars like they seem to think.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

KBB says that 2013 Beetle is $9700 trade in value. Listed at $15K

Down the list...

2013 Jetta, $12,122 and listed at $15,746

2013 Jetta, $12,077 and listed at $15,995

2013 Jetta, $11,899 and listed at $16,395

2014 Jetta, $13,077 and listed at $18,245

2013 Sportwagen, $12,521 and listed at $17,495


I used the default TDI options/packages and chose "Very Good" for the vehicle conditions. Furthermore, I highly doubt people are getting what KBB lists as "acceptable" for trade-in value because dealerships look for additional leverage. "Oh...paint scratches, a dog pooped in the back it looks like, we found half a ham sandwich between the seats"....

Get real people. You're getting low balled because it's easy not because it's right.

 

[joeelmex]

Let me share my experience today with the VW dealership as I went to activate the VW credit-cards. (This is at the only VW dealership South of Atlanta where I bought the cars originally on the same day) I own 2 2012 Tdi completely paid off. Both are premium models with the only difference is one being automatic and the other being manual. I was happy with them until this news broke out. I cant drive this every day knowing I am polluting as much as a bus. Don't want to get into an argument on this part with other members who don't mind the issue. That's my opinion and in good conscious I could not drive this anymore.


I checked KBB and 1 car should be worth 10K trade in value and the other should be wort 9k. (I dont know the price of the cars before the fiasco so I cant compare the loss for before and after) I went to the sales rep and I picked 2 VW cars a Tiguan nicely loaded for the wife and a golf for me. They wanted 26K for the golf. I wrote the following on the deal page, give me 10K for each of my cars, I will give you 2K in the gift cards I have, 1k in loyalty program and sell me the car for 23k. I will pay for TAX cash. Tiguan I will finance on a price we can agree on.

The sale rep talked about the Diesel Fiasco and he said he will see what they can do. He left and was talking to the managers for 30 minutes and he came back.

I kid you not when I say this, they offered me 6K for each car and no price break on the Golf. I told the sale rep that offer is insulting and he said those cars are not worth much. I said yes thanks to VW and I had no fault on it. We talked for another 15 minutes talking about the diesel fiasco and he left again to talk to this manager. He came back and they offered 7k for each car and no price adjustment on the golf still.

I said thanks for your time but no deal will be made. As I was leaving I saw the manager tell the sales guy make sure you have their number. (Not sure if this is for the future reference)

I was upset and felt disgusted with the offer from VW. My wife has been wanting the BMW X1 so I went to the BMW dealership. (Its right next door) They offered me 8,500 right off the bat and I negotiated on the price of the X1. I bought my wife a BMW X1 and traded in her Jetta Tdi. I then sold them my Jetta Tdi and bought me a BMW 328i. I have left the VW family and joined BMW family.

So just wanted to share my story on what happened in my situation in South Atlanta.

On other news if anyone wants to buy $1000.00 on VW gift cards please msg me. (Not the VISA ones, used them to for the payment on the X1) I also have about 2 gallons of OptiLube XPD LOCAL delivery for sale. Msg me. I will miss this community as you all have been very helpful.

Thanks

 

[Smevans]

That's his point. Even if the 13% is entirely attributable to dieselgate (and I'm of the opinion that it is *not*), that would still only account for a loss of $X - $2500 for most of the impacted cars.
Losing 20%-50% is either something going wonky with the purchase and initial loan or normal depreciation. The people posting that they bought their cars for $30K a year or two ago and can't trade it in for more than $17K or can't find buyers now are not accounting for normal depreciation or the fact that the market is soft for diesels and used cars at this time of year normally. The scandal did not drop $10K off the value of their cars like they seem to think.

I agree with most of those points. If I sell my car privately, I can most likely get $16,000-$16,500. In my opinion, that would be $2,000-$2,500 off what I could have gotten if Dieselgate did not happen. But dieselgate has caused (imo) the market for diesels to drop significantly. It has also eliminated the means of trading in a car as (from the prices I was offered today) scared most dealers from touching these cars.

So no I haven't lost 20-50% of my value. But I did lose some value (other then normal depreciation) and it will make it significantly more difficult and time consuming to find a buyer (as private would be my only real option).

 

[I800C0LLECT]

I agree with most of those points. If I sell my car privately, I can most likely get $16,000-$16,500. In my opinion, that would be $2,000-$2,500 off what I could have gotten if Dieselgate did not happen. But dieselgate has caused (imo) the market for diesels to drop significantly. It has also eliminated the means of trading in a car as (from the prices I was offered today) scared most dealers from touching these cars.
So no I haven't lost 20-50% of my value. But I did lose some value (other then normal depreciation) and it will make it significantly more difficult and time consuming to find a buyer (as private would be my only real option).

Think about it this way...that guy above who traded in his vehicles for $8500 made it VERY easy to flip those TDI's for say....$13K. Who invariably deflated the vehicle's value? The owner who took the hit or the dealership who probably made AT LEAST $5K?? Not to mention the absolute bargain price they were able to list and STILL make a killing.

Who brought market value down...owner, dealer, or VW?

If, as a community, we all snubbed our nose at those nasty dealership practices our resale value would be just fine.

 

[peterdaniel]

Let me share my experience today with the VW dealership as I went to activate the VW credit-cards. (This is at the only VW dealership South of Atlanta where I bought the cars originally on the same day) I own 2 2012 Tdi completely paid off. Both are premium models with the only difference is one being automatic and the other being manual. I was happy with them until this news broke out. I cant drive this every day knowing I am polluting as much as a bus. Don't want to get into an argument on this part with other members who don't mind the issue. That's my opinion and in good conscious I could not drive this anymore.
I checked KBB and 1 car should be worth 10K trade in value and the other should be wort 9k. (I dont know the price of the cars before the fiasco so I cant compare the loss for before and after) I went to the sales rep and I picked 2 VW cars a Tiguan nicely loaded for the wife and a golf for me. They wanted 26K for the golf. I wrote the following on the deal page, give me 10K for each of my cars, I will give you 2K in the gift cards I have, 1k in loyalty program and sell me the car for 23k. I will pay for TAX cash. Tiguan I will finance on a price we can agree on.
The sale rep talked about the Diesel Fiasco and he said he will see what they can do. He left and was talking to the managers for 30 minutes and he came back.
I kid you not when I say this, they offered me 6K for each car and no price break on the Golf. I told the sale rep that offer is insulting and he said those cars are not worth much. I said yes thanks to VW and I had no fault on it. We talked for another 15 minutes talking about the diesel fiasco and he left again to talk to this manager. He came back and they offered 7k for each car and no price adjustment on the golf still.
I said thanks for your time but no deal will be made. As I was leaving I saw the manager tell the sales guy make sure you have their number. (Not sure if this is for the future reference)
I was upset and felt disgusted with the offer from VW. My wife has been wanting the BMW X1 so I went to the BMW dealership. (Its right next door) They offered me 8,500 right off the bat and I negotiated on the price of the X1. I bought my wife a BMW X1 and traded in her Jetta Tdi. I then sold them my Jetta Tdi and bought me a BMW 328i. I have left the VW family and joined BMW family.
So just wanted to share my story on what happened in my situation in South Atlanta.
On other news if anyone wants to buy $1000.00 on VW gift cards please msg me. (Not the VISA ones, used them to for the payment on the X1) I also have about 2 gallons of OptiLube XPD LOCAL delivery for sale. Msg me. I will miss this community as you all have been very helpful.
Thanks

Ill give you 50 bucks for the VW cards.. You know... VW depreciation and all....

 

[laughingbasho]

I don't need a SUV like how Africans need clean water. Of course I can put a child seat in a beetle, store the stroller in the back seat, groceries in the front seat and the small trunk along with the dog's crate.

Also 14k for a trade in is not peanuts. Would of been 15.5k or 16k before diesel gate. But that doesn't matter, because the dealer wouldn't even accept our car so...

I've been silent through all this but enough is enough. My dad wedged my three brothers and me into a two-stroke Saab 96 when I was a young 'un.

A 3G Beetle would have been ... Expansive. ;-)

 

[romad]

My wife has been wanting the BMW X1 so I went to the BMW dealership. (Its right next door) They offered me 8,500 right off the bat and I negotiated on the price of the X1. I bought my wife a BMW X1 and traded in her Jetta Tdi. I then sold them my Jetta Tdi and bought me a BMW 328i. I have left the VW family and joined BMW family.

Why didn't you get the 328d?

 

[Smevans]

Think about it this way...that guy above who traded in his vehicles for $8500 made it VERY easy to flip those TDI's for say....$13K. Who invariably deflated the vehicle's value? The owner who took the hit or the dealership who probably made AT LEAST $5K?? Not to mention the absolute bargain price they were able to list and STILL make a killing.
Who brought market value down...owner, dealer, or VW?
If, as a community, we all snubbed our nose at those nasty dealership practices our resale value would be just fine.

Yes if the entire community collectively decided not to trade in any of their TDI's and only sell privately at the before scandal market value. Then the pricing may not have dropped if the demand for the cars was still there. How long is it going to take for that dealer to sell them at $13k?

Because of what VW has done to the diesel market, how much longer would it take those of us that don't want/need our cars to sell them? Dealers can afford to hold a car on their lot for months. Like the above poster, he was not willing to drive the car. So he could trade it in for the now lower pricing, or try and sell with who knows how long it would take. VW killed the demand for their cars which has killed the value.

I see where you are coming from but VW created the climate for the dealers. If there was no scandal, no one would be trading the TDIs in for those crazy prices.

 

[laughingbasho]

I don't need a SUV like how Africans need clean water. Of course I can put a child seat in a beetle, store the stroller in the back seat, groceries in the front seat and the small trunk along with the dog's crate.
Also 14k for a trade in is not peanuts. Would of been 15.5k or 16k before diesel gate. But that doesn't matter, because the dealer wouldn't even accept our car so...

I've been silent through all this but enough is enough. My dad wedged my three brothers and me into a two-stroke Saab 96 when I was a young 'un.
A 3G Beetle would have been ... Expansive. ;-)

And we liked it.

And we liked it.

 

[burpod]

this thread is so ridiculous. when i was a kid we had a green hornet and 3 kids and i puked inbetween the rear seats. next we moved up to a ****ty buick cutlass station wagon, and then into an olds custom cruiser '86. and we were never allowed to own a nintendo. i loved the custom cruiser but then one day i found out my parents junked it and i was pissed. all it needed was brake lines (which of course at the time i didn't know how to do)

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Yes if the entire community collectively decided not to trade in any of their TDI's and only sell privately at the before scandal market value. Then the pricing may not have dropped if the demand for the cars was still there. How long is it going to take for that dealer to sell them at $13k?
Because of what VW has done to the diesel market, how much longer would it take those of us that don't want/need our cars to sell them? Dealers can afford to hold a car on their lot for months. Like the above poster, he was not willing to drive the car. So he could trade it in for the now lower pricing, or try and sell with who knows how long it would take. VW killed the demand for their cars which has killed the value.
I see where you are coming from but VW created the climate for the dealers. If there was no scandal, no one would be trading the TDIs in for those crazy prices.

flip back to the other page....it took Priority VW of Chesterfield, VA a little more than 2 weeks to sell 26 cars after listing them. I was offered $17K trade in value by one single dealership for my 12 Jetta TDI Premium with less than one year ownership and 10K miles. The other offers were $14K and $15K.

Everybody swears they're getting screwed but have no data to back it up. What I'm suggesting is that EVERYBODY was getting screwed on trade-in value BEFORE this ever started. It's just easier for most to swallow and complain about in forums now because they believe their car isn't worth as much either. "GD stealerships got me over a barrel!!!" No they don't. I was only offered $13.5K for my wife's 71K mile '12 Passat TDI. It was a bad offer pre-scandal(August I think?) and after IMO. They approached me again during a maintenance drop off...then remembered who I was. NOPE.

 

[S2000_guy]

Joeelmex,

Congratulations on your new BMWs. Enjoy them, and don't look back.

 

[pkhoury]

Well TDI's are still going to be desirable here in California, where gas is hovering around 3 bucks a gallon, and I just filled up at 2.45 a gallon with the diesel.

Unless diesel goes back up again. Plus you still have to get them smogged. When I got my Jetta smogged in the past, I felt like I was getting raped paying 50 bucks just so someone could plug into the OBD2 port to tell me the MIL is off.

I seriously don't know how anyone can live here in general - I've been seeing diesel around 2.69-3.09 this week, and 91 octane is between 3.29 and 4 bucks!

 

[I800C0LLECT]

Joeelmex,

Congratulations on your new BMWs. Enjoy them, and don't look back.

The 1 series seem like a pretty good car...

must be nice!

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Y'll need to learn how to work the market...

Back in 1986 the market for diesel cars and trucks collapsed after the GM diesel debacle. My family stocked up on diesels, I got a new Golf diesel and mom and dad got a new one ton Econoline diesel for less than the price of gassers. This is like the stock or real estate markets- you need to buy when the market is down and sell when the market is up! Some of you folks are behaving like the fools who cashed out of the stock market when it bottomed back around 2008...

 

[dmarsingill]

Let me share my experience today with the VW dealership as I went to activate the VW credit-cards. (This is at the only VW dealership South of Atlanta where I bought the cars originally on the same day) I own 2 2012 Tdi completely paid off. Both are premium models with the only difference is one being automatic and the other being manual. I was happy with them until this news broke out. I cant drive this every day knowing I am polluting as much as a bus. Don't want to get into an argument on this part with other members who don't mind the issue. That's my opinion and in good conscious I could not drive this anymore.


I checked KBB and 1 car should be worth 10K trade in value and the other should be wort 9k. (I dont know the price of the cars before the fiasco so I cant compare the loss for before and after) I went to the sales rep and I picked 2 VW cars a Tiguan nicely loaded for the wife and a golf for me. They wanted 26K for the golf. I wrote the following on the deal page, give me 10K for each of my cars, I will give you 2K in the gift cards I have, 1k in loyalty program and sell me the car for 23k. I will pay for TAX cash. Tiguan I will finance on a price we can agree on.

The sale rep talked about the Diesel Fiasco and he said he will see what they can do. He left and was talking to the managers for 30 minutes and he came back.

I kid you not when I say this, they offered me 6K for each car and no price break on the Golf. I told the sale rep that offer is insulting and he said those cars are not worth much. I said yes thanks to VW and I had no fault on it. We talked for another 15 minutes talking about the diesel fiasco and he left again to talk to this manager. He came back and they offered 7k for each car and no price adjustment on the golf still.

I said thanks for your time but no deal will be made. As I was leaving I saw the manager tell the sales guy make sure you have their number. (Not sure if this is for the future reference)

I was upset and felt disgusted with the offer from VW. My wife has been wanting the BMW X1 so I went to the BMW dealership. (Its right next door) They offered me 8,500 right off the bat and I negotiated on the price of the X1. I bought my wife a BMW X1 and traded in her Jetta Tdi. I then sold them my Jetta Tdi and bought me a BMW 328i. I have left the VW family and joined BMW family.

So just wanted to share my story on what happened in my situation in South Atlanta.

On other news if anyone wants to buy $1000.00 on VW gift cards please msg me. (Not the VISA ones, used them to for the payment on the X1) I also have about 2 gallons of OptiLube XPD LOCAL delivery for sale. Msg me. I will miss this community as you all have been very helpful.

Thanks

They were just taking advantage of your ignorance/sensitivity of the situation. If you had brought them to the ones north of ATL and not voiced your opinion and displeasure, you never know what would happen. Why didn't you just take them to CarMax in McDonough? They would have given you more money? Remember, VW doesn't own the dealer.

Donald

 

[dgoodhue]

Think about it this way...that guy above who traded in his vehicles for $8500 made it VERY easy to flip those TDI's for say....$13K. Who invariably deflated the vehicle's value? The owner who took the hit or the dealership who probably made AT LEAST $5K?? Not to mention the absolute bargain price they were able to list and STILL make a killing.

Who brought market value down...owner, dealer, or VW?

If, as a community, we all snubbed our nose at those nasty dealership practices our resale value would be just fine.

The individual transaction price of vehicle, is the money a dealer is willing to pay for it and the seller is willing to sell it for. I suspect some dealers have taken advantage of some owners, but here is still some uncertainty and risk for the dealers as well.

Looking at the larger scale of VW prices, you can apply basic economics principals. I don't know if the you have taken an economics class before, but in theory the demand of TDI was affected by VW lawsuit (I suspect it has). VW and EPA have also affected the supply of TDI by stop the sale of new TDI temporarily and VW stopping the sale of CPO TDI. To answer your question, all three, VW, Dealer and Owners have change the supply and demand curve which seems like it has shifted the value down.

A few people or even hundred owners (sellers) are not going really to affect the pricing of VW's. I have a relatively rare collector vehicle. Almost 10 years ago, a collector bought up (or at least tried to buy) almost every nice vehicle for sale for his collection, he end up buying about a 100 of them in a year period. It created a short term $2000-3000 premium for vehicle. In a normal year probably 100 vehicle transactions might happen, on the forum we noticed this and quite a few owners took advantage of the buying spree so their were more sales than normal the year. Once the collector stop buying them, the price quickly went back to what is was before. With 500,000 TDI on the road (obviously they aren't all for sale), it will be really hard to affect the resale value of the car. You are just not going to get needed 10,000's of owners to band together to inflate the price.

 

[evoblade]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but an excellent engineering and business analysis of why it happened and how they did it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

Think about it this way...that guy above who traded in his vehicles for $8500 made it VERY easy to flip those TDI's for say....$13K. Who invariably deflated the vehicle's value? The owner who took the hit or the dealership who probably made AT LEAST $5K?? Not to mention the absolute bargain price they were able to list and STILL make a killing.

Who brought market value down...owner, dealer, or VW?

If, as a community, we all snubbed our nose at those nasty dealership practices our resale value would be just fine.

Yup. To me...it's all of the above. At this point, I think it's great. All of these people dumping their cars for pennies on the dollar adds more ammunition to the diminished value issue, when it comes time for Ken Feinberg to determine compensation for individual TDI owners.

Edit: What puzzles me is...why dump your car for less than wholesale price now? I kinda get the tree huggers that dumped their cars back in late Septemper and October...but now?

 

[LNXGUY]

I'm going to laugh when all you guys thinking you're going to get big payouts get squat, lol.

People dumping these cars for pennies on the dollar are idiots.

 

[I800C0LLECT]

The individual transaction price of vehicle, is the money a dealer is willing to pay for it and the seller is willing to sell it for. I suspect some dealers have taken advantage of some owners, but here is still some uncertainty and risk for the dealers as well.

Looking at the larger scale of VW prices, you can apply basic economics principals. I don't know if the you have taken an economics class before, but in theory the demand of TDI was affected by VW lawsuit (I suspect it has). VW and EPA have also affected the supply of TDI by stop the sale of new TDI temporarily and VW stopping the sale of CPO TDI. To answer your question, all three, VW, Dealer and Owners have change the supply and demand curve which seems like it has shifted the value down.

A few people or even hundred owners (sellers) are not going really to affect the pricing of VW's. I have a relatively rare collector vehicle. Almost 10 years ago, a collector bought up (or at least tried to buy) almost every nice vehicle for sale for his collection, he end up buying about a 100 of them in a year period. It created a short term $2000-3000 premium for vehicle. In a normal year probably 100 vehicle transactions might happen, on the forum we noticed this and quite a few owners took advantage of the buying spree so their were more sales than normal the year. Once the collector stop buying them, the price quickly went back to what is was before. With 500,000 TDI on the road (obviously they aren't all for sale), it will be really hard to affect the resale value of the car. You are just not going to get needed 10,000's of owners to band together to inflate the price.

I was speaking hypothetically. What I'm trying to point out is that if dealerships weren't successful in arranging poor trades they wouldn't try nearly as much.

So it's safe to assume this business practice took place well before the emissions scandal. Showing us a terrible offer is not justification that resale has bottomed out.

I appreciate your points since I didn't convey my thoughts well.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

I'm going to laugh when all you guys thinking you're going to get big payouts get squat, lol.

People dumping these cars for pennies on the dollar are idiots.

The compensation packages will have to be generous enough to motivate people to not stick with the class action. The issue though...as you're suggesting (and I agree)...it doesn't take much money to make it more than the average class action payout. Hell...another $500 Visa card would probably be more than we'd end up with if it ends up going to trial and the blood sucking lawyers dig into the settlement.

What I'm finding amusing are the people expecting to basically get paid back for driving their car for the past 'x' years. By that...I mean the purchase price + damages crowd.

 

[sriracha]

Dieselgate is a great lesson in stock market economics. I now understand how uncertainty can devalue a stock. Selling when the market is low...bad idea.

It is common knowledge that trade-in offers are always low at the dealership, regardless of dieselgate. They will always offer you a rediculously low price and tell you to sell privately if you want a fair price. And now with the TDI market at a low and shattered consumer confidence, they are taking advantage of the situation. Sorry, but now is not the time to sell.

When this fiasco washes over and when fuel prices inevitably go back up, the value of TDI will be high again.

Be patient and enjoy a great car.

 

[740GLE]

I was upset and felt disgusted with the offer from VW.

I was upset and felt disgusted with the offer from VW dealer.

The dealer is looking to cover their behinds, just sleep well knowing that they are creating their own issues. I can't imagine the sales room was filled up with people clamoring for new VWs right now.

Looks like the free market is at work yet again.

Enjoy your new ride.

 

[jayp111]

Hate to break it to folks but anyone that thinks they are going to be compensated in any meaningful way for real/percieved damages are delusional.

Its just not going to happen....you want proof then look at history of class action lawsuits in the auto industry.

The closest you MIGHT get would be something like this

https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/...s-mileage-lawsuit-owners-get-lump-sum-option/

And before anyone launches into a percieved pollution grievence schtick you better give some consideration to proving exactly how YOU were harmed by a little bit of NOX

Some of the arguments that some precious little snowflakes are putting forth will be laughed out of court.

 

[romad]

Some of the arguments that some precious little snowflakes are putting forth will be laughed out of court.

Not necessarily. I've seen tons of such specious arguments being accepted by judges. For an example: the "affluenza" plea that got a murderer off after killing four people while drunk.

 

[jayp111]

Not necessarily. I've seen tons of such specious arguments being accepted by judges. For an example: the "affluenza" plea that got a murderer off after killing four people while drunk.

I dont see examples of this in the realm of automobile/manufacturer litigation

If you have solid examples of auto litigation that supports some of the more "fragile" arguments I'm all ears

 

[shovelhd]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but an excellent engineering and business analysis of why it happened and how they did it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao

That was really well done and worth the time to watch and listen. Just think if that guy was able to do the same code analysis on the Gen1 cars before 23O6, after 23O6, and after whatever hack job VW is going to foist on us that have no choice but to take it or sell.

 

[rhino4evr]

thought I'd stop in and see if anything has changed since November. Looks like its business as usual.