Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[bhtooefr]

The trick, for those predicting the doom of the diesel engine... gasoline engines are becoming as diesel-like as possible, and some gasoline cars have had LNTs for years (to enable lean burn modes of operation, to reduce fuel consumption), and soon GPFs and SCR will be a thing there, too.

All of the problems diesels are having now with compliance and with reliability? Within 5 years, gasoline engines will have the same problems, but far more widespread.

This scandal doesn't just hurt TDIs in the US, it doesn't just hurt Volkswagen, it doesn't just hurt diesels. It hurts internal combustion altogether, especially given the state of battery-electrics (and EREVs, which are still internal combustion, but use their engine far, far less).

 

[El Dobro]

I wonder if this will ripple down to all the folks that received the $1300 ULEV emission vehilcle IRS tax credit.

It would seem to me that the basis for this tax credit might prove problematic also. Is it possible the tax man will want all his $1300 tax credits back?

VW should be held responsible for that, too.

 

[vwUMO]

http://news.mit.edu/2013/study-air-pollution-causes-200000-early-deaths-each-year-in-the-us-0829
200,000 estimated deaths due to air pollution in just USA.
unless you believe MIT is behind a green conspiracy as well.

It's interesting that the group performing the study is the aeronautics dept. And any air travel related figures are omitted... But that shouldn't bias a thing. Their key donations come from the airline industry (and air travel in the only unregulated industry to date for greenhouse gases/pollution). I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but I've actually worked and taught at a university, so I realize that bias exists.

 

[Aquaticmind]

You've got to be kidding me if you think our tiny 2.0s over pollute when there are CUVs SUVs and Pickups getting away with emissions because of CAFE.

Life will move on and the issues will be fixed. You can bet thought that the EPA will be looking into other manufactures pulling similar shenanigans.

 

[bhtooefr]

Nothing will probably die because you don't get your software update, but you're failing to understand or appreciate the bigger picture here. If 1 million people took your stance then it would be a much bigger issue. I suppose you're just special. Reducing emission from cars has substantially improved the air in this country compared to where it would be if the EPA didn't exist. If you really hate the EPA so much, you can always move to country w/o any environmental protections.

Let's be fair, though, and I know I'm not exactly the most qualified to say this, given the state of my own TDI (having RC3, Titan 502s, an 11 mm pump (although that may actually reduce NOx by improving fuel/air mixing), and some missing parts)... RC2+ and PP520s are likely going to increase NOx emissions significantly, especially given how hard Jeff likes to push timing on his tunes.

I wouldn't be surprised if either of our cars are spewing more NOx than the affected CBEAs and CJAAs.

There's an intellectual dishonesty in chewing out other people for not getting the recall because clearly they don't care about the planet, when one has modified their own TDI to, most likely, behave even worse.

 

[oilhammer]

Pollution doesn't always come in the form of a dark cloud. If you lived in a smog prone area, you might be more concerned about smog causing chemicals. NOx has many many attributes that make it a potent pollutant.

Still don't really care. Sorry. I just don't. High MPGs are what is important to me. Until we can stop importing thousands of tons of crap a day from China, I really think emissions requirements are questionable in light of fuel use.

You could quadruple the amount of 4 cylinder TDIs on the roads here, and it would not make a dent in the pollutant levels globally. And actually, it may HELP them given how little fuel TDIs use. It isn't like we are driving around in 12 MPG SUV pigs.

 

[vwUMO]

I'm still waiting for the EPA to discover that humans expel greenhouse gases and pollute water... I wonder if they will ban their production or limit their exhaust... My wife would vote for a reduction in beans and cabbage...

 

[astoryatthree]

It's interesting that the group performing the study is the aeronautics dept. And any air travel related figures are omitted... But that shouldn't bias a thing. Their key donations come from the airline industry (and air travel in the only unregulated industry to date for greenhouse gases/pollution). I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but I've actually worked and taught at a university, so I realize that bias exists.

WVU has a combined Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering Department. The majors are incredibly closely related and the university has one department instead of two. There is an entire facility on campus dedicated to the Center for Alternate Fuels, Engines, and Emissions.

Random tidbit, they have the only heavy duty mobile chassis dynamometer in the region.

 

[oilhammer]

They've already spent millions of taxpayer dollars studying cow farts. Maybe we should just tax fat people? Good thing I've lost 85 pounds! I'll be in a lower tax bracket now!

 

[vwUMO]

WVU has a combined Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering Department. The majors are incredibly closely related and the university has one department instead of two. There is an entire facility on campus dedicated to the Center for Alternate Fuels, Engines, and Emissions.
Random tidbit, they have the only heavy duty mobile chassis dynamometer in the region.

I was referring to the MIT study... Ironic though that a coal state dropped the dime on rolling coal. Lol

 

[Tom Servo]

Pollution doesn't always come in the form of a dark cloud. If you lived in a smog prone area, you might be more concerned about smog causing chemicals. NOx has many many attributes that make it a potent pollutant.

The car should fit the climate. So why does someone like me who lives in a non industrial mostly rural area have to beholden to the same rules as someone in LA with its stagnate air and millions of cars? If I lived there I'd be all in on EVs, too. Instead, I live somewhere where my little 1.9 L engine's pollution is inconsequential when you factor in not just all the other honking big trucks and SUVs around but the agricultural vehicles as well.

It's not fair that is "flyover people" should suffer for choosing not to live in an area shared with ten million other crazy people.

Motor vehicles create 5% of nitrogen oxides in the US; agriculture is the source for 80%.

This highlights the idiocy of the tough EPA rules. They are all too happy to go after the 1% of the 5% while ignoring everyone else.

It's especially damning when you understand which companies make and sell the most vehicles that take advantage of the loopholes in the pollution rules (hint: they're all American). Protectionism much?

People are right to be mad at VW for cheating, but it's important to put it in perspective. They were cheating on a test that's impossible to ace. BMW owners know what I mean, just look at how fragile their in-compliance diesels are and how much maintenance they need.

You gotta ask yourself this: if this cheating scheme had never happened, how much lower would US pollution levels be, exactly? The answer, I suspect, is infinitesimal. We simply don't exist in sufficient numbers to make a real difference in overall or nitrogen oxides.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[bhtooefr]

The thing is, agricultural NOx emissions aren't actually occurring inside of a city. You're not driving a tractor to work, after all.

A lot of car owners, however, do live in metropolitan areas where there are smog issues, and I suspect you'd react even worse to German-style "must meet Tier 2 Bin 5 to enter the city" regulations.

 

[astoryatthree]

I was referring to the MIT study... Ironic though that a coal state dropped the dime on rolling coal. Lol

My bad. Misunderstood.

 

[Aquaticmind]

There's an intellectual dishonesty in chewing out other people for not getting the recall because clearly they don't care about the planet, when one has modified their own TDI to, most likely, behave even worse.

I won't argue that my 12 year old car is worse than any current TDI. If people don't take their new TDI's in, it really is their business and I doubt anyone will ever be wiser, but the EPA bashing, as though they are the bad guys here seems really off base.

Reading this thread has made me think about what my NOX emission really are and how my driving influences them. I'm not sure I have way test them though. I bought a TDI because of the mileage and fun just like about everyone else here, I didn't even think about NOx like almost everyone else.

 

[Dozenspeed]

Hmmm wonder what will come from this.

The most insanely viral thread in TDI forum history?

No less than 400 people in here at any time I've seen since you started it.

Criminy...

 

[oilhammer]

All I know is, this galvanizes my resolve to drive VAG diesels as my primary means of transportation every day, and makes me want to buy a new(er) one even more.

Coworker brought up the Aston Martin loophole with "giving away" Aston-badged Toyota IQs with every Vanquish purchase to meet CAFE requirments. I'm tellin ya, unreasonable rules make for exploited loopholes to the fullest.

 

[Aquaticmind]

Still don't really care. Sorry. I just don't. High MPGs are what is important to me.

It isn't like we are driving around in 12 MPG SUV pigs.

I bought my TDI for the mileage, didn't really think about the NOx side. And I agree that if every SUV was replaced with a TDI it would be ab improvement.

 

[Dozenspeed]

Coworker brought up the Aston Martin loophole with "giving away" Aston-badged Toyota IQs with every Vanquish purchase to meet CAFE requirments. I'm tellin ya, unreasonable rules make for exploited loopholes to the fullest.

I liked James May's idea of them buying a bicycle factory!

 

[PlaneCrazy]

If I owned a CR TDI, I would be looking at selling it and putting the money toward a Tesla Model S. However, I have a PD (BEW) so I'll keep my TDI.

I strongly recommend against selling at this point in time, until we know more about what VW plans to do to make right to the customers (aka me and many others) it duped.

I am damned glad I dumped my POS 2011 Golf TDI just three and a half weeks ago. Just in time. However my wife has a 2013 Golf TDI wagon. So far it has been excellent, just normal wear-and-tear and the exhaust flap issue fixed under warranty. At 62k km, it is still young. It had the recent emissions ECM reflash that was partially to address this issue, and my wife notes that fuel economy hasn't suffered on a road trip she made to Ontario recently (4.8 L/100 km on the MFD at 120 km/h indicated which is about 113 true, which is bang on what we always got at that speed, and this was on brand-new tires as well).

It's running fine and I expect VW to still honour the warranty on it. For sure if we sell now we take a loss and lose out on any potential financial compensation VW may offer (buy-back, compensation, whatever). This would not be a smart move for a car that is running very well and continues to do the mission we bought it for (long family trips, and general daily driver for my wife).

If VW orders a recall that reduces power by 20% or increases consumption by 10% or both, as well as a cheque to compensate for the car not doing what it advertised it to do (I'm thinking a cheque for about $5k would be appropriate here), I expect she'll still want to keep it as she otherwise loves the car and that would bring it to about the performance/efficiency level of our late BEW PD Jetta wagon, which she loved and was more than adequate. If they offer a buy-back, we'd have to see what that amounts to before jumping. If it's tied to buying another VW, I'm not sure I'd recommend another diesel (unless she wants a Touareg but I doubt it!). I'd probably advise her to get a TSI wagon.

However, given the choice I'm not sure we'd go to another VW. What VW did is fraud. Fraud is a criminal offense. It does not merit being rewarded with our continued custom. Moreover, I've noted that my TSI gets excellent fuel economy for a gasser. WAAAYYY better than NRCAN estimates (about 1 L/100 km better on the highway; that's significant on a car rated at 6.4). It's direct injection. Clearly it is burning very lean. Lean burn = increased NOx. What's to say that VW didn't cheat on the TSI as well? What confidence can I have in them after this?

In the meantime, we'll keep running our TDI and wait to see how all this plays out.

 

[Tom Servo]

Still don't really care. Sorry. I just don't. High MPGs are what is important to me. Until we can stop importing thousands of tons of crap a day from China, I really think emissions requirements are questionable in light of fuel use.

You could quadruple the amount of 4 cylinder TDIs on the roads here, and it would not make a dent in the pollutant levels globally. And actually, it may HELP them given how little fuel TDIs use. It isn't like we are driving around in 12 MPG SUV pigs.

Funny you mention China. They're suffering from unchecked pollution so we can feel good about our blue skies while we drive 12 mpg Escalades to Walmart to go shopping for more Chinese crap.

In that sense, EPA rules didn't really fix pollution, it just shut down factories and off shored the pollution and cheap labor to brown people in the third world.

Some solution, eh?

If people were smart, we'd have slightly more generous pollution laws and more big V6 and V8 diesel powered SUVs and trucks with less aggressive but more reliable NOx scrubbers and overall pollution would almost certainly be lower, along with national average fuel consumption.

But the EPA, in my opinion, is much too anti-diesel, no doubt influenced by the tree hugging hippies at the Sierra Club, who have had it in for diesels since forever.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Jeta Life]

All I know is, this galvanizes my resolve to drive VAG diesels as my primary means of transportation every day, and makes me want to buy a new(er) one even more.
Coworker brought up the Aston Martin loophole with "giving away" Aston-badged Toyota IQs with every Vanquish purchase to meet CAFE requirments. I'm tellin ya, unreasonable rules make for exploited loopholes to the fullest.

Absolutely but I am surprised to now see Oilhammer touting the CR TDI, what it going to take to get all you ALH guys to get away from those 15 year old ALHs, just buy a CR TDI, you also get 50 mpgs with Common Rail technologies.
True, only 482,000 sold in 7 years that's pretty pathetic why are they after us go after the Detroit Bad Boys and Japanese who have exploited Americans for their love of the CUV and SUV and Pickups.

How many of those ridiculous vehicles have been sold in 7 years. We are a small family leave us alone with our tiny 2.0

 

[Borsig]

All I know is, this galvanizes my resolve to drive VAG diesels as my primary means of transportation every day, and makes me want to buy a new(er) one even more.
Coworker brought up the Aston Martin loophole with "giving away" Aston-badged Toyota IQs with every Vanquish purchase to meet CAFE requirments. I'm tellin ya, unreasonable rules make for exploited loopholes to the fullest.

Again this.

Just because someone tells me "you cant have that" makes me want it more. This probably comes from my in depth firearm hobby.

I bought a tdi for multiple reasons, the number one being fuel economy, and less money in the pocket of opec. The second was it was the only vehicle I liked, that got said economy.

I dont care who cheated. I don't hate the epa, I just won't allow them to meddle with my 30,000.00 investment.

I keep telling people that don't like the second amendment to move elsewhere too, but that doesn't work either.

I choose NOT to live in a metro area. A tdi is not a city car anyway, the prius and leaf or what ever else reign there.

Risking borderline political discussion, those who live the cities have far too long dictated their rules (by majority of population) to those of us who live in the rural regions. Nox from my little tdi and the maybe dozen others in my county doesn't mean a hill of beans.

So no, I don't care. I use half the fuel most people do. Thats my high ground.

 

[gnuworldorder]

what would stop vw from saying "hey its a light truck!" now? i mean if the pt cruiser can be a truck why cant the golf?

 

[dst5]

Again this.

Just because someone tells me "you cant have that" makes me want it more. This probably comes from my in depth firearm hobby.

I bought a tdi for multiple reasons, the number one being fuel economy, and less money in the pocket of opec. The second was it was the only vehicle I liked, that got said economy.

I dont care who cheated. I don't hate the epa, I just won't allow them to meddle with my 30,000.00 investment.

I keep telling people that don't like the second amendment to move elsewhere too, but that doesn't work either.

I choose NOT to live in a metro area. A tdi is not a city car anyway, the prius and leaf or what ever else reign there.

Risking borderline political discussion, those who live the cities have far too long dictated their rules (by majority of population) to those of us who live in the rural regions. Nox from my little tdi and the maybe dozen others in my county doesn't mean a hill of beans.

So no, I don't care. I use half the fuel most people do. Thats my high ground.

In 2010, a total of*80.7 percent*of Americans lived in urban areas, up from*79 percent*in 2000. Conversely,19.3 percent*of the U.S. population lived in rural areas in 2010, down from 21 percent in 2000.Mar 26, 2012

 

[Jeta Life]

what would stop vw from saying "hey its a light truck!" now? i mean if the pt cruiser can be a truck why cant the golf?

It's all about the CAFE classification of vehicles according to that article somebody referenced here, you learn something new here every day !
It's ridiculous no idea why I just read about it yesterday.

They're just picking on VW because VW got money and they are sue happy. They should change CAFE not meddle around in a small community's 482,000 tiny 2.0s

 

[Gary Barnhill]

Now the worst part of all; stigma may evolve for VW TDi drivers. The opposite of driving a greenie Prius or Tesla.

Stigma: a mark of disgrace or infamy; a stain or reproach, as on one's reputation.

Social stigma is the extreme disapproval of (or discontent with) a person or group on socially characteristic grounds that are perceived, and serve to distinguish them, from other members of a society. Stigma may then be affixed to such a person, by the greater society, who differs from their cultural norms.

 

[993er]

Kind of a joke all this is considering the amount of pollution the countless tractor trailers spew on the interstates and other highways. The EPA should look at the overall picture.

 

[dinatdi]

 

[bhtooefr]

Reading this thread has made me think about what my NOX emission really are and how my driving influences them. I'm not sure I have way test them though. I bought a TDI because of the mileage and fun just like about everyone else here, I didn't even think about NOx like almost everyone else.

To be honest, I was under some misconceptions about smog chemistry and NOx's relation to it that led me to believe that increasing NOx emissions is, anywhere smog is actually a problem, the best way to get rid of smog. (Which isn't true, reducing NOx emissions below a stoichiometric point works better.)

Had I not been under those misconceptions, I would've made different choices with my modifications 5 years ago. I'd still have eventually done the 11 mm pump (which was a later mod anyway) - increasing injection pressure is actually a way to get a free lunch with emissions and performance, as long as the fuel system doesn't blow up (and the 11 mm pumps aren't to that point) - but I would've stuck with a much milder tune (with the goal of improving throttle response more than improving power/torque), and there would be parts on my car that are currently missing.

 

[ertzog]

"Cafe is bad law so ignore it, and praise those that sell equipment that cheats it"

"I am the only one taking a dump in the middle of the road, so get over it, my contribution to pollution is so small it is irrelevant"

"all hail the master race"