Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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nj1266

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how does bmw get to pass?

my understanding is that bmw uses both scr and lnt systems in conjunction while vw uses one or the other.

According to the European study posted here, BMW is the best at using SCR+LNT+EGR at reducing NOx. They are one of the few diesel cars to come well below Euro 6 NOx standards. But our standard is 2.6 times more stringent than the Euro one. I assume that BMW is meeting that. But who knows for sure. Maybe they are cheating as well.


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nj1266

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As a customer who placed a deposit on a 2016 golf tdi sel I must say I am extremely disappointed. I placed my deposit in July and after 2 months this happened. I am seriously considering asking to have my deposit back and get a used mk6 tdi, take the detune and get it malone stage2 tuned.

If you live in CA, I suggest you scrap your diesel purchase altogether. I would highly suggest getting a 2016 Volt or even a 2015 Volt. We got a 2015 Volt at an $8500 discount from MSRP. We will get $1500 back from CA and $7500 tax credit. It is an amazing machine. I like it a lot, but I like my Spark EV even more.


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nj1266

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No need to assume. Its in the Univ Virginia report. The X5 335d is pretty much compliant.

It is my understanding that diesels with bigger engines emit less NOx than diesels with small engines. 4 banger 2 liter diesels emit more NOx than 6 cylinder 3 liter and above engines. I would like to see if the 328d meets the NOx standard in the U.S.


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k1xv

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southern Vermont
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09 TDI sedan, sold back 12/16. Present cars 2013 BMW X5 diesel, 2015 Corvette convertible
I would recommend that anyone presently with a deposit on a car should ask for it back immediately. As there is a stop sale order, they cannot honor your sales agreement and cannot tell you when, if ever, they will be able to sell you a car.

If they ever are able to sell TDi cars again, to try to overcome the black eye they have suffered at their own hands, they will likely have a sales promotion that you cannot believe. So, unless you need another car right now, keep your powder dry and your options open.
 

k1xv

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09 TDI sedan, sold back 12/16. Present cars 2013 BMW X5 diesel, 2015 Corvette convertible
Oh, and on a second point, I think that you are dreaming if you think that a car you presently own that its manufacturer admits does not meet the emission standards in force when it was manufactured is going to go up in value in the retail market place. Sounds like wishful thinking.
 
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sidtai

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If you live in CA, I suggest you scrap your diesel purchase altogether. I would highly suggest getting a 2016 Volt or even a 2015 Volt. We got a 2015 Volt at an $8500 discount from MSRP. We will get $1500 back from CA and $7500 tax credit. It is an amazing machine. I like it a lot, but I like my Spark EV even more.


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Can you explain your advice for me scrapping my diesel purchase? I am getting a diesel because its fun to drive and highest mpg among the fun cars. I am not looking at any car without a manual. Fun is very important to me as it is my daily driver, and I could not imagine driving a nonfun car every day.
 

austintg

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2016 Audi A6 Technik
I'm absolutely upside down on my loan for my 2010 Jetta, I'm about to pass 130,000mi and I still owe about $12,000. This is so frustrating! There's no way in hell I could get enough to pay it off. What percent chance do y'all think they will do a buyback?
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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2009 JSW, 2010 Jetta, 2011 Q7 Prestige, 2012 A3 Premium, 2013 A3 Premium Plus, 2014 Beetle, 2015 Jetta
But I have a feeling, and this is me just trying to be positive, that VW will find a way to get the emissions to pass, and the performance levels/mpg to stay at a point where customers are "happy".

If they are smart enough to create an algorithm to circumvent the EPA tests, they are smart enough to come up with a way to give us the same performance (and MPG within reason) we were promised when we bought the car.
If they were smart enough to pass emissions without sacrificing performance and efficiency, then why not do that in the first place? Unbelievably huge financial risks were taken. No one in their right mind does that on a whim.
 

gncc600

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I'm absolutely upside down on my loan for my 2010 Jetta, I'm about to pass 130,000mi and I still owe about $12,000. This is so frustrating! There's no way in hell I could get enough to pay it off. What percent chance do y'all think they will do a buyback?
Highly unlikely they buy it back. Even if they were to buy it back it would be for fair market value. There is a good chance you could get compensation. How much? No idea
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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2009 JSW, 2010 Jetta, 2011 Q7 Prestige, 2012 A3 Premium, 2013 A3 Premium Plus, 2014 Beetle, 2015 Jetta
I'm absolutely upside down on my loan for my 2010 Jetta, I'm about to pass 130,000mi and I still owe about $12,000. This is so frustrating! There's no way in hell I could get enough to pay it off. What percent chance do y'all think they will do a buyback?
There will be plenty of people in your situation. A one size fits all approach would never work. What do you say to someone with a working vehicle who is currently unemployed and couldn't qualify for a new auto loan? Sorry sir you have to give us your vehicle, but here's a check for $8K, sorry to hear you owe $12K on it. Good luck!
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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Well of course. To me, Volkswagen wasn't happy with the EPA regs, thought they were too restrictive and damaging to emissions parts (DPF, EGR etc), so rather than develop all new parts to deal with it they created an algorithm to trick the EPA tests. Results were awesome MPG, good power and for the most part trouble free emissions stuff (I know the DPF can be an issue)

That's just my theory on why they did it. While a huge financial risk, they managed to get away with it for 5 years. And don't act like their risk didn't benefit consumers during that time. i mean some people are getting 800 to a tank of fuel.
Corporations operate on the basis of assets and liabilities, profit and loss. Publicly traded companies have to answer to shareholders. They don't take on billions of dollars worth of financial risk just to make a silly political statement.
 

LRTDI

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RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
VW stops sales of TDI vehicles.

I'm gutted just as I was going back to try drive and inevitably buy one.

Maybe a TSI sniff
 
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powerfool

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As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions. Are the Emissions rules more relaxed in Europe? How did these people justify the cheating in their mind so that they felt ok with it?
for other things related to the Earth the Europeans seem to be relatively progressive. My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place.
We can be optimistic and hope that such a thing was not intentional. For instance, in a testing situation, you certainly would want to fully test that all of the systems are functioning properly; that doesn't necessarily mean it would always operate with all of the systems running as they would in a test. So, at best, it is simply a miscommunication of how the vehicles operate. At worst, it was fully intentional and the allegations are valid. We'll see, I guess.
 
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cjaa
The service our dealer provided alone was enough to not want to give VW another dime of our money. The fact that I can't trust my car going to a dealer and getting correctly performed service being an issue all to it's own.. The newest scandal seals the deal absolutely. It's not the pollution, though, the ability to burn clean was a paramount decision in buying the car originally. It's not the principle--I understand why they'd do it. If de-tuning the car (and this is speculative) is the fix to meeting emissions specs, we likely would have never bought it. If we wanted something asthmatic and dreadful to drive we would have bought a Prius. We knew Toyota's reputation for standing by their product and still, we chose the TDI. Not the happy go lucky edgy VW advertising campaign, nor, the mythbusters "tour" of the CJAA had sold us completely on the car--it was the driving experience that sold us. The car was zippy and agile. Something it's opposition was not. The interior was spacious and aesthetically pleasing. The ride was quiet and smooth. The handling and braking were superb compared to the shopping cart like characteristics of the Prius.

I just signed up and this is my first post on this forum. In the past, I only came here for the tutorials since terrible customer service at the dealer prompted me to wrench on the machine myself. I've been really grateful for the wealth of information you all provide but I never really paid much attention to troubles other TDI owners were having... until now. I'm a little overwhelmed at the number of HPFP failures. DPF failures (if the speculative fix is correct) will only continue to increase. Is there some critical failure in the DSG too? I mean.. ***!? Add these potentially catastrophic ingredients together and mix thoroughly with a dash of EPA emissions scandal and what sane, well informed car buyer would buy one of these from us? What does it say when it's reported not even Volkswagen will take one in? I always wondered why resell value was in the toilet.

At the same time, however... we love our TDI. It's been (relatively) reliable for us and we drive the piss out of it. Feeling performance go down and noticing a decrease in MPG after the update was a bummer but the car has been good to us and we were never 100% on whether it was the update or not that caused it.

Unfortunately, we live in California, so we'll likely be required to perform the (speculative) de-tuned update but you know what? I say bring it on. The quicker Cali and the EPA gets the notification that my VIN has received the update, the quicker I can send my computer off to be retuned. I'm in a county that only smogs at the point of sale and if it's worthless anyways--even in the eyes of it's own creator--what have I got to lose?
 

NYC-TDI

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Can you explain your advice for me scrapping my diesel purchase? I am getting a diesel because its fun to drive and highest mpg among the fun cars. I am not looking at any car without a manual. Fun is very important to me as it is my daily driver, and I could not imagine driving a nonfun car every day.
You are correct, driving a TDI is fun. What is not fun is dealing with their constant problems. Sitting at the dealer=not fun. Extremely high scheduled maintenance costs=not fun. Stranded miles from home=not fun. Do yourself a favor, go get your deposit back. It's highly likely that if you do get the car the changes VW has to make to become compliant will result in a less "fun" car anyway. Look elsewhere.
 

bluedoggiant

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MD
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this thread is entertaining.

i hope MD (doesn't test diesels) doesn't mandate the TDI's to be updated.

I just bought LED tails and was about to go for a Malone tune but I'm going to hold off.

End of day my opinion hasn't changed of VW, still one of my favorite car companies.

can't wait to see how this plays out...
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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2009 JSW, 2010 Jetta, 2011 Q7 Prestige, 2012 A3 Premium, 2013 A3 Premium Plus, 2014 Beetle, 2015 Jetta
Not at all unexpected. Now down 22% and falling. $18 billion in shareholder value up in smoke, and they haven't even paid a dime in fines yet. Herr Schuler probably in the men's room hooking up the electrodes on the portable defibrilator...
 

XtreemLee

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New Plymouth, ID
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon Wagon (bought back), 2006 Golf GLI
Some commenters seem overly confident that this scandal will not result in a buyback. I'm not so sure. I'm guessing it won't just be MPG that takes a hit due to a recall fix. I expect some performance degradation as well. So to be emissions compliant my car will no longer drive like it did during my test drive. The product I bought was misrepresented. Buyback?

Buyback is a certainty...
 

scottb8888

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See VW is getting fined! What about us? We bought the car based on the MPG ratings. They should replace our vehicles. Sure the government will fine VW, but what about the half a million consumers that bought these cars?? Sounds like a BIG class action suit against VW?
 

nj1266

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Can you explain your advice for me scrapping my diesel purchase? I am getting a diesel because its fun to drive and highest mpg among the fun cars. I am not looking at any car without a manual. Fun is very important to me as it is my daily driver, and I could not imagine driving a nonfun car every day.

You did not mention that you strictly wanted a manual. If you want a manual and a diesel, then stick with the TDI. I wouldn't buy a diesel after this fiasco. Diesels are not a viable long term option in CA. The only other option that is semi fun with a stick and gas engine with good mileage is the Honda CRZ.


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nj1266

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If they were smart enough to pass emissions without sacrificing performance and efficiency, then why not do that in the first place? Unbelievably huge financial risks were taken. No one in their right mind does that on a whim.

Exactly. If it was feasible to pass US stringent NOx when the standard kicked in 2009, then they would have done it anyway. The U.S. NOx was 0.05 g/mi in 2009. At that time Europe was operating at Euro 5 NOx of 0.29 g/mi. VW, foolishly, wanted to become the number 1 auto maker by volume. To expand in the U.S. they need high fuel economy cars given high oil prices. So the pressure was on to bring diesel stateside and game the system. Just write a software sub-routine in the ECU that will operate according to EPA specs under test conditions and revert back to Euro 5 specs when the test is over. It makes sense since the EPA alleges that in some cases NOx emissions was 40 times allowable limits. This puts the NOx numbers close to Euro 5 limits.

I am just surprised that it took so long to catch VW. They had a good 15 years gaming the system.


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Lightflyer1

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Exactly. If it was feasible to pass US stringent NOx when the standard kicked in 2009, then they would have done it anyway. The U.S. NOx was 0.05 g/mi in 2009. At that time Europe was operating at Euro 5 NOx of 0.29 g/mi. VW, foolishly, wanted to become the number 1 auto maker by volume. To expand in the U.S. they need high fuel economy cars given high oil prices. So the pressure was on to bring diesel stateside and game the system. Just write a software sub-routine in the ECU that will operate according to EPA specs under test conditions and revert back to Euro 5 specs when the test is over. It makes sense since the EPA alleges that in some cases NOx emissions was 40 times allowable limits. This puts the NOx numbers close to Euro 5 limits.
I am just surprised that it took so long to catch VW. They had a good 15 years gaming the system.
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Well 6 years. 2009 to 2015. Nothing before 2009 is in question here.
 

Rico567

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This thread has become like a few YT videos....I just have to come back to watch and see how it ends.
 

r11

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The uber-excellent article @ http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_NOx-control-tech_revised 09152015.pdf

furthers my point about inability to meet stringent NoX emission numbers for both US and EU (Euro-6) when under real-driving conditions (as opposed to dyno tests). Literally, not a single existing diesel car is compliant under the new rules.

EU will be requiring real on-road testing for certification starting in '16.


In '14, passenger diesel car share in EU was about 53%. It is well under 1% in US, with 12m cars sold in EU, vs 14m in US.

Assuming 10y avg life span of a passenger car, there're about 60m (!) diesel passenger cars on the road in EU.

Both EU and US would either have to adjust the limit, or there won't be any new diesels introduced to these markets. If u are in the market for diesels in EU, BUY NOW.

BMW went all out trying to meet US NoX, throwing everything AND a kitchen sink at the problem: EGR, LNT + SCR and has smallest NoX emissions. This is the ONLY car in the world that does it. And I am sure its maintenance costs will simply be astronomical.
 

LRTDI

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RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
Maybe there is a silver lining for those about to get back on the Tdi bandwagen

Massive discounts to reintroduce Clean Diesel powered VWs.
 

jason_

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Not saying it makes it right, but now when I do a software modification I shouldn't feel so bad?

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