Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

Status
Not open for further replies.

802

Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Location
NEK
TDI
2015 Jetta S TDI
I bought my daughter a '15 Jetta TDI a few weeks ago. I'm a long time MB diesel driver and was excited to get her in a diesel, for less than a Civic.
I have always had a soft spot for VW's but I am regretting choosing the TDI now. VW is in for some hurt and I believe they will go out of their way to make this right. However, I think this will be a game changer for their US diesel sales.
I love the car and so does she. We'll hope the car is reliable, can avoid the dealer, and thus avoid their "fix." This really isn't a big deal. I just don't need the drama over a car and wish I'd got her the Accord Sport instead.
 
Last edited:

gncc600

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Location
Indiana
TDI
2013 VW Passat SE DSG
Did people freak out like this when Toyotas were accelerating on their own or GM ignition switches were shutting cars off in accidents? All these new people freaking out at an alarming rate is actually a little comical. I'm still 10X more worried about my Passat turbo than this stupid emissions crap. And I'm not that concerned about my turbo.... Drive more worry less!
 
Last edited:

tc1uscg

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Location
Pluto
TDI
SOLD TO VW
The article has been updated (corrected) to state that 2016 models also will not be sold.
Over the next year, E.P.A. officials said, owners of the affected vehicles should expect to receive recall notices from Volkswagen, including information about how to get their cars repaired at no cost to them.

No cost? If it causes more build up in our emissions systems, more fuel use, that's hardly no cost, less HP aka, less zip, someone needs to rethink the use of the term "no cost". :(
 

gncc600

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Location
Indiana
TDI
2013 VW Passat SE DSG
Over the next year, E.P.A. officials said, owners of the affected vehicles should expect to receive recall notices from Volkswagen, including information about how to get their cars repaired at no cost to them.

No cost? If it causes more build up in our emissions systems, more fuel use, that's hardly no cost, less HP aka, less zip, someone needs to rethink the use of the term "no cost". :(
They would have to compensate you if they make changes that makes the car more costly to drive or the car is made worse. Either on their own or through a class action. Luckily they are one of the wealthiest automakers in the world. I'd be a bit worried if I was dealing with Mitsubishi or Suzuki.
 
Last edited:

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (retired); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (sold)
Embarrassing indeed. I just purchased a 2015 Golf TDI in August. Not happy about this at all. Should have listened to my gut and bought a Toyota, Honda or Hyundai.
If I unload my TDI now, the value has definitely dropped significantly.
:mad:
Since other people who want a TDI may now be unable to buy one from a VW dealership, it's entirely possible that the demand for your 2015 Golf will increase. If I was in the market for a new one but couldn't get one, I'd have to find an almost-new one from a private owner.
 

danielstdi

Vendor
Joined
Dec 27, 2010
Location
AZ
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI Cup
are those Jetta Cup cars still for sale? I wonder if they meet emissions.
Yep, I have a TDI Cup, it's the same exact thing as a regular 2010 Jetta TDI, so we're in the same boat as every other TDI getting recalled.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
2018 Tesla Model 3: 217,000 miles
Yep, I have a TDI Cup, it's the same exact thing as a regular 2010 Jetta TDI, so we're in the same boat as every other TDI getting recalled.
Unless he means the Cup race cars, which are currently in transit to the crusher (okay, maybe not the crusher, but there was a picture of a bunch of them on the back of a big rig a couple of days ago).
 

1998redwagon

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Location
warba, minnesota
TDI
2013 passat 6M tungsten/cornsilk
how does bmw get to pass?

my understanding is that bmw uses both scr and lnt systems in conjunction while vw uses one or the other.
 
Last edited:

15 A3 TDI

Active member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Location
Los Angeles, CA
TDI
2015 A3 TDI
That is a good paper and it gives a good overview of the strengths and limitations of each NOx control technology. Pointedly, SCR is not the be-all and end-all. It needs a minimum temperature in the exhaust system for the AdBlue to properly break down and release ammonia, which might not happen in low-driving-load situations. The worst-performing cars in the new test procedure were all using LNT, but others using LNT did okay. Translation: it's ALL in the details.
The thing that I didn't know is that BMW changed their emission control strategy in the US market from SCR (+ EGR), to LNT + SCR (+ EGR). Basically they are throwing the book at the problem by using every available control technology together; the weaknesses of any single method are hopefully overcome by the strengths of another. Sounds expensive.
Indeed it is...I really wanted a 328d...I just couldn't justify the $100+ per month premium for it.


haven't made it through 83 pages of this thread. Has anyone determined if VW was also circumventing testing in Europe?
Set your posts per page to 100 or more and it makes it easier I think.
 

kellerm

New member
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Location
CT
TDI
2012 JSW 6M
One potential other reason for the "why" that I'm curious about has to do with the potentially higher emissions equipment failure rates they would see operating to full EPA spec at all times. Since this equipment has to be replaced under warranty for what, 80k miles(?) they could have been trying to avoid warranty work. If it's that on top of unachievable performance without the switch, then this is triple bad. Scamming the customer out of advertised efficiency, performance, and reliability, polluting a public resource, and scamming the government out of fuel efficiency tax rebates (pre 2010 right?). If they can't somehow paint this as a mistake and it really was deliberate (how could it not be?) then this is beyond serious...

My car got the one hour ECU flash last week .. had I known this was what it was for I would have held off.
 

raybo

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Location
St. Petersburg, FL
TDI
2010 JSW DSG White Gold
is there hope for 2016 TDIs?
"John Schilling, a Volkswagen spokesman, said that the company would stop selling 2015 Volkswagen and Audi models equipped with 4-cylinder turbo diesel engines, which the company has marketed as “clean diesel.” The company will also stop selling used cars that have the engines, Mr. Schilling said.
But he said 2016 models, which are arriving at showrooms now, would not be affected.":confused:
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/b...lection=International Business&pgtype=article
Article was corrected by NYT - Stop Sell is for '15 and '16...
 

raybo

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Location
St. Petersburg, FL
TDI
2010 JSW DSG White Gold
Did people freak out like this when Toyotas were accelerating on their own or GM ignition switches were shutting cars off in accidents? All these new people freaking out at an alarming rate is actually a little comical. I'm still 10X more worried about my Passat turbo than this stupid emissions crap. And I'm not that concerned about my turbo.... Drive more worry less!
People are "freaking out" because this was deliberate from the get-go...
 

pkforbes87

Active member
Joined
Aug 20, 2015
Location
Missouri
TDI
2013 Passat 6M
If I owned a CR TDI, I would be looking at selling it and putting the money toward a Tesla Model S. However, I have a PD (BEW) so I'll keep my TDI.
My CR has proven to be a very economical, very efficient workhorse in the 75k problem-free miles I've owned it. (109k total on the car)

I plan to add a little over 2000 miles to its odometer over the coming workweek. My guess is that its amazing fuel economy and minimal environmental impact will be wholly unaffected by the panic occurring here.

With that being said, the P85D gives me goosebumps. I'm looking forward to the day electric technology can provide transportation for my frequent 2000+ mile weeks venturing into sparsely populated areas.
 

PC Dave

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2001
Location
USA
TDI
Other
Sagebrush, just curious. You have no dog in this hunt. Why are you posting so much on this site?
SageBrush is an exceedingly prolific (11,600 post) and generally strident member of PriusChat enjoying a bit of schadenfreude. He'll move along when the witch hunt is over. :cool:
 

2010nctaco

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Location
Concord NC
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 2012 GLI(kicking myself for not getting the TDI)
Well I looked at a 2015 golf wagon at the dealership a couple of days ago, but wanted to wait until my wife could see it. Are these cars not being sold at all right now? Should I try and see if they will sell it? what are my options? Anyone know for sure?
 

SageBrush

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
CO
TDI
None
SageBrush is an exceedingly prolific (11,600 post) and generally strident member of PriusChat enjoying a bit of schadenfreude. He'll move along when the witch hunt is over. :cool:
Wrong on schadenfreude; and I do try to be respectful when I visit my neighbors. Since I make no attempt to hide my internet trail, perhaps you can judge my posts here on their merits rather than derail the thread ?
 

PC Dave

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2001
Location
USA
TDI
Other
Wrong on schadenfreude; and I do try to be respectful when I visit my neighbors. Since I make no attempt to hide my internet trail, perhaps you can judge my posts here on their merits rather than derail the thread ?
No derailment, just addressing a question you chose to ignore; context is useful. Carry on.:)
 

ccbsecu

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Location
Greensboro, NC
TDI
2013 Touareg Executive TDi
ok....so I have tried to read this thread in it's entirety...not an easy task.

First and foremost - I live in a non-emissions state for vehicle inspection/registration on diesel vehicles and have been DPF free for some time.

How, or will this effect my current set-up?
 

rotarykid

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 27, 2003
Location
Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
TDI
1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
Just saw an ad for clean diesel Jettas tonight on CBS in Indianapolis. Guess they haven't gotten the email?
I saw three of them of three different networks today while watching football today......

I am betting the reason VWAG made the admissions they did was because they already have in the works a solution to make EPA & CARB happy. A solution likely to be fully implemented within the next week........Soon allowing all diesel sales to resume as usual.....

Many here either do not know or have forgotten about similar which happened at the beginning of the 2000 MY. CARB stopped TDI sales of the first 2000 MY offerings in their state claiming the cars exceeded testing parameters when driven in the real world. VWAG reprogrammed the cars as requested by CARB and sales continued until the change of emissions laws in 2004.......

And on the questions raised on my points made about loophole class vehicles being sold to be used as passenger vehicles,.....

the original law which was passed in 1982 to begin in 1983 MY offerings was sold to congress as a change which would only effect a small number of offering used in industrial setting like construction and farming......

Now fast forward to today, every last one of these today designed from the start to use that loophole which has been kept in place during the coming increase in law requirements in CAFE are ignoring the intent and breaking the law's sold intent to use it only for industrial offerings.

They may not have been prosecuted for skirting the intent of the law, but that does not change the fact that they are purposely and deliberately breaking the laws set purpose.....

I wish they had been prosecuted for this action which lead to a worsening of pollution levels across the US(a fact the EPA noted in studies at the time) when their sales were the highest since the introduction of pollution controls in the 1970s....

Use of the loophole law to produce mainly passenger vehicles really took off in the early 1990s leading to a drastic increase in emissions and a drop off of real world CAFE. REal world observed CAFE numbers dropped to numbers not seen since the 1970s in the US fleet, dropping into the single digits.

Not until the price at the pump spike of 2004 did this trend start to turn around with auto makers starting to offer more fuel efficient offerings for first time since the end of CAFE in 1987 MY......

And the continuing of the loophole in coming CAFE and emissions rules for vehicles not intended to be used in an industrial setting for at least the next decade allows this class to exceed emissions and CAFE requirements at a cost of clean air and our national security from the fuel/gasoline they will waste for no practical reason.......

This action being currently taken against VWAG on vehicles which over the last 6 years have made up less the much more polluting loophole vehicle sold just this past month is not about cleaning up the air in any way.......

But is an action taken as a feel good effort by some to allow the air to look cleaner on paper, while they continue to allow the loophole sales for another 10 years at least..........

If the EPA and CARB purpose is really about cleaning up the air we breath this issue will not go another 10 years as is unresolved..........

I hope this action brings to light the real unfair nature of current emissions rules over regulation of the minuscule number of fuel sipping light duty diesel autos, while continuing to ignore or regulate the real pollution producers today...

How about they lower regulations to more practical and reasonable levels on the most fuel efficient diesel powered offerings.

And pass regulations which would actually give us cleaner air requiring the real polluters today in the loophole class with large displacement gasoline engines to meet auto standards.

These loophole class vehicles currently used as single passenger vehicles across the US today spewing billions of mega-tons of unregulated or measured today ultra fine PMs need increased regulations to clean them up !NOW!........
 

nj1266

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Location
Long Beach, CA
TDI
Golf
If I owned a CR TDI, I would be looking at selling it and putting the money toward a Tesla Model S. However, I have a PD (BEW) so I'll keep my TDI.

Before this recent fiasco I priced my 2010 TDI with 48,000 miles and I got 11,500 for it. That will give pittance as a down payment on a 70K+ Tesla Model S. I was shocked by how badly these cars devalue.


Sent from my 64 gig Retina IPad Mini
 

nj1266

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Location
Long Beach, CA
TDI
Golf
Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs trigger massive recall, s...

Compared to what ?

It looks to me like SCR+LNT+EGR passes Euro 6 without cheating. I'm less sure about meeting US standards, but at least they are within shooting range, at least from a technical perspective. I have no idea about cost, reliability or performance trade-offs.

This is what I got from reading the article too. SCR+LNT+EGR is the only likely option to pass Euro 6 stringent 0.129 g/mile. The U.S. Tier 2 bin 5 standard is 0.05 g/mile which is 2.6 times more stringent than the Euro 6.

There is no way that the 2009-2014 LNT only equipped VW cars will pass the EPA NOx standard. I just cannot see it happening. Only BMW has done that by using SCR/LNT/EGR combo.

There is going to be some serious detuning on LNT VWs like mine. I really doubt that VW will retrofit an SCR on these cars. Highly unlikely. They will either detune them and financially compensate the very angry owners or buy them back at current market value and crush them. I opt for the latter. Give me 11,500$ and take it right now.


Sent from my iPhone 8
 

croppz

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Location
Mooresville, North Carolina
TDI
2013 DSG Jetta TDI
I'd probably only participate in a buyback if it resulted in them either paying me what I owed on the car, or more. Nothing less. No reason I should get screwed financially for their wrong doing.

But I have a feeling, and this is me just trying to be positive, that VW will find a way to get the emissions to pass, and the performance levels/mpg to stay at a point where customers are "happy". But I also don't know a ton about diesels, this is my first one.


If they are smart enough to create an algorithm to circumvent the EPA tests, they are smart enough to come up with a way to give us the same performance (and MPG within reason) we were promised when we bought the car.
 

sidtai

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Location
Socal
TDI
Future 2016 TDI owner
As a customer who placed a deposit on a 2016 golf tdi sel I must say I am extremely disappointed. I placed my deposit in July and after 2 months this happened. I am seriously considering asking to have my deposit back and get a used mk6 tdi, take the detune and get it malone stage2 tuned.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top