Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[mpatel1080]

Your right, I'm not a stock trader, just a family man with a Golf Wagon TDI. Listen, these cars are going to lose value over time just like any other car. Where I live (Toronto) a Subaru Forester actually holds their value more than a Golf Wagon TDI, so it's not like the resale is that amazing. VW has admitted to cheating, the car is destined to loose its oomph, so why continue to believe that things will just be ok? I don't get it but clearly I am in the minority here.

I wouldn't sell your car, I would wait to see how this unfolds. VW may end up having to buy these cars back for far more than they are worth. The only way they can probably fix this is with urea/SCR systems. There is likely no space in these vehicles in which they can fit the system, and even if they can it will adversely affect fuel economy to the point that they will have to offer owners some sort of payment. I am betting the EPA will make them fix or attempt to remove these vehicles from the road. This is not a case of willfully ignoring US emissions laws, and signifies a Fraud that senior management had to be complicit to.

 

[Jeta Life]

The fact is that we didn't get what was advertised for our money. We didn't get a clean diesel that produces 140 or 150 hp. We got a car that pollutes more than advertised, or will have less hp to bring it back into federal compliance.
I test drove my car, and liked it a lot. I loved the fact that it gave great MPG, in fact I could beat the EPA rating. I was also told that after a 2 year hiatus that diesel was back and cleaner than ever. Which was true, but not true enough to meet federal regulations.
I love my TDI and the way it drives, the high quality interior, and the fantastic ergonomics. However, I feel like I've been cheated, and have been a fraud for telling people I drive a car that satisfies my enthusiast bent while being as green as a hybrid.

I wonder how much more our tiny little 2.0 TDI really pollutes. Granted it is polluting more than we thought, but I still doubt its that much compared to CUVs SUVs Pickups etc..
I'm a 3 time VW owner and also liked the quality feel but think VW actually cheated on this for our benefit. They were hoping not to get caught but we ended up getting more mpgs
Now what's going to happen when this is all said and done who knows but we have to remain cool and stop thinking of the worst case scenario.
We did not do anything wrong. VW did something wrong, they must pay for this one, not me this time. I already paid close to $3000 for a new DPF job so this time its their turn to pay.
VW will lose money on this one, not us. They made the mistake and now they must pay so I dont understand why everyone is getting so upset. VW is the one that should be worrying how they are going to satisfy 482,000 complaining customers knocking on their door Monday morning

 

[gncc600]

So before I go to bed tonight, someone tell me why selling my TDI is a bad idea? How are you people so certain everything will turn out just great and this whole thing will just pass? I love my TDI. When I drove it today, I told myself "how could I get rid of this thing, it feels great!" but then I saw a nice clean looking 2.5 wagon go by and I said "it's almost the same car, just a different motor and no drama, boy wouldn't that be nice". Ahhhh!!!!!! I'm so conflicted! What crystal ball are you guys using?

Give me something to ponder while I brush my teeth and go to bed.

This stuff happens all the time. The specifics change but major recalls for safety, emissions, reliability.... etc We've even seen issues covered up by automakers. Let the storm blow over. Don't run into the streets screaming armageddon. The only people who may truly hurt right now may be those who were already planning on buying, selling, or trading before the news came out. Private party sales likely won't be effected that much. There isn't safety or reliability issues with these cars. If you wanted one for fuel economy before this then you have no reason not to still want one. There are German engineers working round the clock right now trying to figure this out. If there is a major hit on fuel economy either don't get the update or get a tune later. I like my car and I'm not worried at all. There are only a few likely outcomes. If our values dive VW will have to cut you a check on their own or through legal action. Running out and dumping it now would be like selling stock right when the market takes a dive. Ride out the storm people the sun will come up tomorrow. Its only an emissions issue. Unless Green Peace is buying most of the coal rollers we will be fine.

People still buy GM's junk after the whole ignition switch scandal. If you want to push 50 mpg and not be seen in a Prius then the TDI is still at the top of the list.

 

[romad]

This is what I've learned so far from this thread:

1. Lying is morally acceptable behavior.

LOL! THAT was proven back in 1999! So you could say that VW was "partying like it was 1999".

 

[SageBrush]

I only gave it a cursory view...but it looks like, on average, the "clean diesels" aren't so...at least with respect to NOx

Compared to what ?

It looks to me like SCR+LNT+EGR passes Euro 6 without cheating. I'm less sure about meeting US standards, but at least they are within shooting range, at least from a technical perspective. I have no idea about cost, reliability or performance trade-offs.

 

[bhtooefr]

• BMW is the only manufacturer to combine SCR and LNT, and then only in the US

Actually, they weren't aware of another manufacturer doing that for the US - the 2007-2009 W211 E320 Bluetec did it, and without urea injection at that, because the LNT emitted enough ammonia for the SCR to work.

I'm looking things up to see what systems BMW is actually using today (although the 2013 X5 that WVU tested appears to be SCR-only? But 2014 is a generational change), but this may not happen until tomorrow.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

My main concern is how my car will come out after getting recall service.

If it comes out with the torque and horsepower of an anemic Yugo, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

 

[CASVV]

My conclusions are based on what we know already to be factual:
1) VW has been lying about their 2.0 L Diesel car NOx emissions.
2) VW has admitted of using software to cheat on the test related to these emissions.
3) VWhas been denying 1) & 2) for a YEAR...all the while continuing selling the cars with absolutely no regard for the impact on its costumers
4) VW only acknowledged 1) & 2) when their own pockets where being affected, with the threat to stop the sale of the 2016 models
And it seems that somehow all these shenanigans are the fault of the law enforcement agency that found about it and make them accountable for doing all this because for some people law enforcement agencies are always at fault...seems to me the EPA bashers are the ones jumping to conclusions.

 

[Jeta Life]

This is an asinine reply. I don't have a house or go on vacation, but I didn't just spend a out 50% my gross on a new car that promised 150hp 2whatever ftlb of torque and 45mpg and would be pissed if I don't get it. You wouldn't pay for a dinner if you ordered pasta and the line cook **** on a plate and covered it with sauce. The only problem is my are is 1000x more expensive

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Well I understand and I realize my tirade does not apply to this thread but I just wanted to shed some light on something called consumer spending.

I would not worry if I were you, VW is the one who is worrying right now. How are they going to handle 482,000 angry customers on Monday morning

VW messed up, not you, they are going have to do what's right. We are all waiting to see what they will do, nothing I can say will help so sorry I was just venting because I have a lot of bills

wait till you get married and have kids and a house, oh boy, I cook my own pasta and cant go out and spend $20 on pasta in a restaurant

 

[romad]

If the thing has a map that's designed to watch for the exact parameters of the EPA tests, that's pretty damning.

Also, state emissions testing does not test things to an extent that could have caught this, as it costs too much to do that. As far as I know, on diesels, the most stringent tests only check for excessive smoke by measuring exhaust opacity (and even a car with a cracked DPF would pass that most likely), and an OBD-II check (which these cars were passing).

And even the opacity test is not an objective test but a subjective test, using the Mark I Eyeball.

 

[gncc600]

My main concern is how my car will come out after getting recall service.

If it comes out with the torque and horsepower of an anemic Yugo, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

Check in here after the fix has started being installed. If you don't like the results don't take it in unless you get forced by your state. Then get a tune

BMW is getting good results and passing emissions. It can be done.

 

[bhtooefr]

Eh, there's opacity meters that are usually used for opacity tests.

 

[jbright]

If I loose 1k or so, big deal. After VW applies the 'fix' to your TDI, my 2.5l and any 15yr old Hyundai Accent will be kicking your butt once the light turns green.

TDI owners and VW owners in general are so delusional, that is what I have learned from my VW TDI experience. "German Engineering" they say...bull! The Japanese make better cameras, better steel, and much better cars. Suck it up people, these cars just suck!

Oh, please. I drive 60 miles a day at 70 mph in heavy traffic and I can't imagine doing that in a gas powered Japanese car. I've made the commute in a Kia, Toyota, and Ford, and I am ALWAYS so happy to get back in my nimble, powerful, fuel efficient TDI. Every day I drive behind some a--h--- in a gas car spewing foul fumes and I have to hit recirculated air. My Jetta has been bulletproof for 120,000 miles and my dealership has been great. You don't know what you're talking about. Just wait and let things play out. Or not.

 

[romad]

Since federal law trumps state law, I see it as a possibility that all states could be required to tie annual registration to ensuring this update has been completed. This is a bit outside of my knowledge base, though, so don't buy stock based on my theory.

Unless the state declares themselves a "sanctuary state".

 

[SageBrush]

Actually, they weren't aware of another manufacturer doing that for the US - the 2007-2009 W211 E320 Bluetec did it, and without urea injection at that, because the LNT emitted enough ammonia for the SCR to work.

Thanks for the correction. I should have said "of the cars tested ..."

 

[GoFaster]

I only gave it a cursory view...but it looks like, on average, the "clean diesels" aren't so...at least with respect to NOx

That is a good paper and it gives a good overview of the strengths and limitations of each NOx control technology. Pointedly, SCR is not the be-all and end-all. It needs a minimum temperature in the exhaust system for the AdBlue to properly break down and release ammonia, which might not happen in low-driving-load situations. The worst-performing cars in the new test procedure were all using LNT, but others using LNT did okay. Translation: it's ALL in the details.

The thing that I didn't know is that BMW changed their emission control strategy in the US market from SCR (+ EGR), to LNT + SCR (+ EGR). Basically they are throwing the book at the problem by using every available control technology together; the weaknesses of any single method are hopefully overcome by the strengths of another. Sounds expensive.

 

[bhtooefr]

However, I'm actually wondering now if a fix for the LNT cars is to go to a LNT+SCR setup like that used on the 2007-2009 E320 Bluetecs, as it didn't use urea.

 

[Zut Alors!]

Dumb question from the peanut gallery, since I'm not a chemical engineer:

I can understand the need for DEF/AdBlue to clean up the exhaust even more than the previous exhaust systems, but is there any evidence that shows the difference in the NOx emissions on AdBlue-equipped TDi's as opposed to the other ones. I kinda scanned through the study but they didn't use any new TDi's like, say my GSW.

Definite punch in the shorts for me as I picked the GSW over the Subaru Outback because of the insane MPG and frankly better engine, and went for it instead of reaching a bit to get a BMW 328d because it was cheaper and I don't trust BMW... and that's saying something when you buy a VW. I bought it planning to run it into the ground, but I don't like the possibility of getting it detuned. Still love the car though and it would take a major detune or VW buying it back for what I paid retail for me to let go of it.

 

[jbright]

It is not his word. Go read the article that he referred to. It is in there.


Sent from my iPhone 8

I meant that, without sarcasm. I don't want to read it. I know he's read it and is correct, but thanks for the advice.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Check in here after the fix has started being installed. If you don't like the results don't take it in unless you get forced by your state. Then get a tune

BMW is getting good results and passing emissions. It can be done.

Thanks!!!!!

 

[Zut Alors!]

The thing that I didn't know is that BMW changed their emission control strategy in the US market from SCR (+ EGR), to LNT + SCR (+ EGR). Basically they are throwing the book at the problem by using every available control technology together; the weaknesses of any single method are hopefully overcome by the strengths of another. Sounds expensive.

Oh you pay through the nose for that strategy. the 328d is just a shade under $20k more than the Golf Sportwagen. While I realize it is a BMW 3 series with a more powerful engine, I bet a good piece of that premium is for all of the emissions control since you're paying about $3k over the petrol-powered model.

 

[SageBrush]

Dumb question from the peanut gallery, since I'm not a chemical engineer:

I'm not an engineer either, but I found this article very informative.

 

[jbright]

I'm not an engineer either, but I found this article very informative.

Sagebrush, just curious. You have no dog in this hunt. Why are you posting so much on this site?

 

[romad]

Eh, there's opacity meters that are usually used for opacity tests.

CARB tests don't use them:

http://smogcheck.ca.gov/pdf/Smog_Check_Manual_ENG_2013.pdf Appendix B, Step 6

 

[SageBrush]

Oh you pay through the nose for that strategy. the 328d is just a shade under $20k more than the Golf Sportwagen. While I realize it is a BMW 3 series with a more powerful engine, I bet a good piece of that premium is for all of the emissions control since you're paying about $3k over the petrol-powered model.

That sounds like a fair guess to me since the ICCT article mentioned ~ $500 for each of LNT and SCR; and you might need a bigger engine to offset the EGR, etc performance reduction.

How is reliability in that model ?

 

[tc1uscg]

This is REALLY terrible.

As Americans, we've set emissions limits on vehicles. Rather than comply, a manufacturer decides to cheat, by making its car seem clean to regulators while knowing that, out on the roads, the cars will be far dirtier. "Screw you, Americans, we found a way to cheat and we don't think you'll do anything about it."

All to chase profit.

I hope government regulators exact a penalty large enough to deter VW and other manufacturers from cheating like this again.

Just terrible.

WOW. As they say, when in Rome... GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toytota... long list but they all have had skeletons in their closets. GM and their ignition system. Ford and it's pintos. Chrysler (jeep and it's Liberties.. just to point out the big 3's famous faults. Now I'm NOWAY a VW fan boy just because I drive a 2013 TDi Passat but this is BS. 18b and not one life has been lost. 1bil for GM and what, 160+ people killed? If it's going to drop my fuel use and performance of my car and require more adblue use, I will request they not do any updates and even state on the invoice "Customer requests...) If they tell me they HAVE too, then I will not be going to the dealer for service. My state doesn't require "smog" testing so opting out might be an option. Or, if vw wants to give me 37k (or what I paid for it), they can.

 

[Mark SF]

Dumb question from the peanut gallery, since I'm not a chemical engineer:

I can understand the need for DEF/AdBlue to clean up the exhaust even more than the previous exhaust systems, but is there any evidence that shows the difference in the NOx emissions on AdBlue-equipped TDi's as opposed to the other ones. I kinda scanned through the study but they didn't use any new TDi's like, say my GSW.

Definite punch in the shorts for me as I picked the GSW over the Subaru Outback because of the insane MPG and frankly better engine, and went for it instead of reaching a bit to get a BMW 328d because it was cheaper and I don't trust BMW... and that's saying something when you buy a VW. I bought it planning to run it into the ground, but I don't like the possibility of getting it detuned. Still love the car though and it would take a major detune or VW buying it back for what I paid retail for me to let go of it.

Yes, the Univ Virginian study shows the difference between the two. Vehicle 1 has no SCR, vehicle 2 does and has lower NOX, just not low enough.

 

[romad]

If I owned a CR TDI, I would be looking at selling it and putting the money toward a Tesla Model S. However, I have a PD (BEW) so I'll keep my TDI.

 

[roostre]

.... I doubt that even the EPA expects 482,000 cars to be scrapped.

That would not be good for the environment.

 

[VodkanDiesel]

Disable OBD port to prevent dealership update?

Is there any way to temporarily disable the OBD port to prevent the dealership from updating my ECU without my permission?

I know they'll try to do this if I take my car for service.

No-one will be detuning my car without my permission.