Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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tadawson

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2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
If you read this thread you would know the guy who runs VW admitted wrong doing in writing
I have read every post, and have seen no such post or claim. VW said they used a switch. I saw no declaration where they stated it was a violation, just that it was present.

- Tim
 

Andy_2009_JSW

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Here is a white paper from the smart fellow who uncovered the fraud testing 32 different diesels for 'on-road' NOx emissions.

Bullet points:
  • Europe is planning to implement this on-road equivalent test from 2016
  • Some cars pass under Euro 6 of 80 mg/km. I don't think any go under US Fed Tier 2 bin 5.
  • BMW is the only manufacturer to combine SCR and LNT, and then only in the US

This is a wonderful read. Highly recommended
+1 for SageBrush. Link worthy of being added to the first post of the thread IMO.

edit: Just noticed SageBrush is a non-TDI owner and just joined this month -- WELCOME and thanks for adding value to the discussion!
 
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Jeta Life

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NJ & North Pocono
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People get all bent out of shape when they spend money on a car.

Fundamental fact: you opened your wallet and you paid and you must now live with it.

What about that money pit house ?

What about all those lousy dinners at expensive restaurants ?

What about all those expensive vacations ?

All those expensive clothes or jewelry you never wear ?

Why are we so troubled by a mechanical inanimate metallic object ?

Do not let it kill you ! ! !

And who cares what your neighbors drive, we get 40 mpgs ! ! !

Count, yes Count all the money all of us have spent on other things. Think on how much money you made your entire life from all the jobs. Just look at your income taxes and calculate, yes calculate !

Where did it all go ? I had a good time !

Cars should average $3000 to $5000 per year on cost to own and maintain, not including gas, insurance and registration and tolls and parking
 
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LogicBomb

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2014 Passat
If Mazda offered a buyback for a 9hp discrepancy, on the RX8, surely VW is opening themselves to serious legal action if they drop the output 40-50hp?

I don't think VW will have a hot fix any time soon. How would you cut back on that much NOx output, without sacrificing drive ability, power, mpgs, or reliability, and in turn opening yourself to a huge lawsuit. Assuming, of course, those are the main motivators of the "switch" in the first place.
 

im no hero x

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Seems to me that Scorchezz is overreacting pretty badly. It's fun to read.

But then again, a lot of people in here are. Jeez.
 
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DEZLBOY

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Arlington VA
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2000 Golf GLS, Candy White
but buybacks won't be part of the program.
Not so sure, depending on the difference (power, MPG, etc) after VW's fix is applied. IF there is a major difference, VW will be forced to by EPA or class action suit or to recover in the public's eyes to make amends to the owners. This could be cash payment, but that won't satisfy every driver.

Thus I believe buy backs may be in order. And possibly tied to purchase of a new EPA certified vehicle.

Fact it, most consumers don't even consider buying a VW, and those that may have won't because VW's name is mud. What comes to mind is Ford Pinto, Firestone Tires....
 

SageBrush

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CO
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Good article, author believes this could hurt the future of diesels in the USA, as hybrids and electric cars improve, and this breach of trust gives diesels a bad name.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/why-volkswagens-diesel-betrayal-different
I cannot help but be amused by spin:

"For its part, Volkswagen seems to be taking the breach of trust seriously. The company has halted sales of remaining 2015 2-liter TDI cars on dealer lots."
As if VW had a choice in the matter.

And this bit of canned lawyer-talk from the CEO:
"I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public."
Then why cheat ? Unless he meant he is sorry to have been caught.
 
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nj1266

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Long Beach, CA
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Golf
Something that would be hilarious : VW gives EPA list of VIN's which haven't had the update after X amount of time.



In all seriousness. ECU update and you'll get advertised MPGs, DEF consumption (even if higher the stuff is cheaper than some bottled water), and maybe and extension of emissions warranty.



There will be lawsuits over some perceived 'harm' and the plaintiffs attorney will reap the rewards not the VW owners.



Depending on the fine VW Group may stop selling TDi's but it's not likely they'll pull up stakes entirely because Audi and Porsche are big sellers in the US. Not to mention there's the expense of the Chattanooga plant.



I'm somewhat surprised VW stayed in the diesel market using SCR(DEF). The system is expensive, complex, and problematic (from my own experience and that of other BMW diesel owners).



It's of course sad that NOX is seen as the bad guy when in fact the problem is VOC's from gasoline.

NOX is not the problem and it actually can clean up the air. This is why SMOG was worse in LA on the weekends. Why on the weekends? There was significantly less diesel truck traffic.

Do you have a peer reviewed source that supports that NOx actually reduces smog? I see it repeated here, but no one cites a source.


Sent from my iPhone 8
 

TDIpilot4u

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St. Louis, Missouri
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2010 Jetta TDI
Honestly, why wait, just sell now and get out of this mess. Assuming you can get a good price for it, just do it. I mean come on. It's not like VW is going to add a urea tank or anything to the 2009-2014 models. Too cost prohibitive. A new NOx trap, probably not. It's going to be a software fix and we know it. 100hp, 150lb-ft is probably what our cars will churn out after the "fix". Our TDIs will be turned into agricultural equipment.

Geez, I sure hope you aren't a stock trader.
 

Scorchez

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Toronto, Canada
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2012 Golf Wagon Comfortline
If Mazda offered a buyback for a 9hp discrepancy, on the RX8, surely VW is opening themselves to serious legal action if they drop the output 40-50hp?

I don't think VW will have a hot fix any time soon. How would you cut back on that much NOx output, without sacrificing drive ability, power, mpgs, or reliability, and in turn opening yourself to a huge lawsuit. Assuming, of course, those are the main motivators of the "switch" in the first place.
My thoughts exactly.

If you can, sell now. If not, well, just keep driving I guess. If any money comes our way, it will be many years from now. I'm just afraid that with an already fragile emissions system, burning more fuel will cause more dpf and egr failures to occur. Will VW extend the warranty on those items? If I'm not successful in selling the car, I sure hope so!
 

LogicBomb

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2014 Passat
My point was a drop in HP of that severity isn't likely due to the ramifications. If you're so quick to hop on the hate wagon, I'd say you wanted to sell the car long before this happened, but now you've got a "legitimate" reason.

I'll continue to enjoy my 800 mile tanks while the storm blows over.
 

nj1266

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The U.S. Congress holds the purse strings. All they need to do is pass a bill (and that could include a few lines in a totally unrelated bill, happens all the time) which makes state highway funds contingent on the state DMV requiring a detune for annual registration, and that is all she wrote. Every state DMV will fall in line overnight.

To support what you are saying. In 1984 Congress passed a bill declaring drinking age 21. States did not have to comply, but those that did not lost 15% of their highway funds. Every state in the union ended up complying. Why? 25% of a state's budget comes from the federal government.


Sent from my iPhone 8
 

shuswap

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British Columbia
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05 Golf TDI BEW auto
Well when the value of these vehicles drops to near-zero tomorrow, I'll pull out my wallet to buy one from the hand-wringing fear-cats!

VW is in a spot of glue, lets sit back and see how it all unfolds. I doubt that even the EPA expects 482,000 cars to be scrapped.
 

Scorchez

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2012 Golf Wagon Comfortline
Geez, I sure hope you aren't a stock trader.
Your right, I'm not a stock trader, just a family man with a Golf Wagon TDI. Listen, these cars are going to lose value over time just like any other car. Where I live (Toronto) a Subaru Forester actually holds their value more than a Golf Wagon TDI, so it's not like the resale is that amazing. VW has admitted to cheating, the car is destined to loose its oomph, so why continue to believe that things will just be ok? I don't get it but clearly I am in the minority here.
 

SageBrush

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CO
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I can imagine VW offering a tempting trade-in offer for a new and improved and actually emission compliant 2016 diesel (when they become available) or VW petrol to the owners of cars that should not have been sold in the US or Canada. VW then ships the cars to Mexico and sells them.

If I owned one of these cars I would not jump to get rid of it, at least from a $ POV.
 
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historiclady

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2010 Jetta TDI Sportswagen
And just who would be likely to buy one at this time anyway??? I want to see what VW will do to fix the problem and or compensate owners--
 
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NYC-TDI

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Do you have a peer reviewed source that supports that NOx actually reduces smog? I see it repeated here, but no one cites a source.


Sent from my iPhone 8
Because it is delusional nonsense.
 

Norm0770

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Location
Indianapolis, IN
TDI
None anymore
People get all bent out of shape when they spend money on a car.

Fundamental fact: you opened your wallet and you paid and you must now live with it.

What about that money pit house ?

What about all those lousy dinners at expensive restaurants ?

What about all those expensive vacations ?

All those expensive clothes or jewelry you never wear ?

Why are we so troubled by a mechanical inanimate metallic object ?

Do not let it kill you ! ! !

And who cares what your neighbors drive, we get 40 mpgs ! ! !

Count, yes Count all the money all of us have spent on other things. Think on how much money you made your entire life from all the jobs. Just look at your income taxes and calculate, yes calculate !

Where did it all go ? I had a good time !

Cars should average $3000 to $5000 per year on cost to own and maintain, not including gas, insurance and registration and tolls and parking
The fact is that we didn't get what was advertised for our money. We didn't get a clean diesel that produces 140 or 150 hp. We got a car that pollutes more than advertised, or will have less hp to bring it back into federal compliance.

I test drove my car, and liked it a lot. I loved the fact that it gave great MPG, in fact I could beat the EPA rating. I was also told that after a 2 year hiatus that diesel was back and cleaner than ever. Which was true, but not true enough to meet federal regulations.

I love my TDI and the way it drives, the high quality interior, and the fantastic ergonomics. However, I feel like I've been cheated, and have been a fraud for telling people I drive a car that satisfies my enthusiast bent while being as green as a hybrid.
 

TDIpilot4u

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St. Louis, Missouri
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
Your right, I'm not a stock trader, just a family man with a Golf Wagon TDI. Listen, these cars are going to lose value over time just like any other car. Where I live (Toronto) a Subaru Forester actually holds their value more than a Golf Wagon TDI, so it's not like the resale is that amazing. VW has admitted to cheating, the car is destined to loose its oomph, so why continue to believe that things will just be ok? I don't get it but clearly I am in the minority here.
I have no plan on selling my car so resale value doesn't matter to me. From the time the news came out my car still drives perfectly fine and I enjoy it. And there hasn't even been a full work day since the news yet people have already determined the outcome and penalty VW should pay. :roll eyes:
 

Scorchez

Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Location
Toronto, Canada
TDI
2012 Golf Wagon Comfortline
So before I go to bed tonight, someone tell me why selling my TDI is a bad idea? How are you people so certain everything will turn out just great and this whole thing will just pass? I love my TDI. When I drove it today, I told myself "how could I get rid of this thing, it feels great!" but then I saw a nice clean looking 2.5 wagon go by and I said "it's almost the same car, just a different motor and no drama, boy wouldn't that be nice". Ahhhh!!!!!! I'm so conflicted! What crystal ball are you guys using?

Give me something to ponder while I brush my teeth and go to bed.
 

gnuworldorder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Location
Pittsburgh
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
People get all bent out of shape when they spend money on a car.

Fundamental fact: you opened your wallet and you paid and you must now live with it.

What about that money pit house ?

What about all those lousy dinners at expensive restaurants ?

What about all those expensive vacations ?

All those expensive clothes or jewelry you never wear ?

Why are we so troubled by a mechanical inanimate metallic object ?

Do not let it kill you ! ! !

And who cares what your neighbors drive, we get 40 mpgs ! ! !

Count, yes Count all the money all of us have spent on other things. Think on how much money you made your entire life from all the jobs. Just look at your income taxes and calculate, yes calculate !

Where did it all go ? I had a good time !

Cars should average $3000 to $5000 per year on cost to own and maintain, not including gas, insurance and registration and tolls and parking
This is an asinine reply. I don't have a house or go on vacation, but I didn't just spend a out 50% my gross on a new car that promised 150hp 2whatever ftlb of torque and 45mpg and would be pissed if I don't get it. You wouldn't pay for a dinner if you ordered pasta and the line cook **** on a plate and covered it with sauce. The only problem is my are is 1000x more expensive

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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2009 JSW, 2010 Jetta, 2011 Q7 Prestige, 2012 A3 Premium, 2013 A3 Premium Plus, 2014 Beetle, 2015 Jetta
So before I go to bed tonight, someone tell me why selling my TDI is a bad idea? How are you people so certain everything will turn out just great and this whole thing will just pass? I love my TDI. When I drove it today, I told myself "how could I get rid of this thing, it feels great!" but then I saw a nice clean looking 2.5 wagon go by and I said "it's almost the same car, just a different motor and no drama, boy wouldn't that be nice". Ahhhh!!!!!! I'm so conflicted! What crystal ball are you guys using?

Give me something to ponder while I brush my teeth and go to bed.
If they offer fair market value, then I wouldn't blame you or anyone else from putting this drama behind them. But if they lowball you, I would absolutely tell them to go suck it. No one knows what's going to happen at this point.
 

SageBrush

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CO
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Because it is delusional nonsense.
Not quite. It has been shown to happen in a tunnel in the Bay area of San Francisco on weekends.

It is, however, an isolated curiosity that has very little to no relevance to the rest of the world where NOx is the king, queen, and crown prince of air pollution. Perhaps this is how conspiracy theories get started ?
 
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TDIpilot4u

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Joined
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Location
St. Louis, Missouri
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
So before I go to bed tonight, someone tell me why selling my TDI is a bad idea? How are you people so certain everything will turn out just great and this whole thing will just pass? I love my TDI. When I drove it today, I told myself "how could I get rid of this thing, it feels great!" but then I saw a nice clean looking 2.5 wagon go by and I said "it's almost the same car, just a different motor and no drama, boy wouldn't that be nice". Ahhhh!!!!!! I'm so conflicted! What crystal ball are you guys using?

Give me something to ponder while I brush my teeth and go to bed.
I don't have a crystal ball but I just think that anytime you sell a car you like you are throwing money out the window. Although maybe others have the crystal ball and already know we are going to loose 40hp
 

15 A3 TDI

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Jun 29, 2015
Location
Los Angeles, CA
TDI
2015 A3 TDI
Here is a white paper from the smart fellow who uncovered the fraud testing 32 different diesels for 'on-road' NOx emissions.

Bullet points:
  • Europe is planning to implement this on-road equivalent test from 2016
  • Some cars pass under Euro 6 of 80 mg/km. I don't think any go under US Fed Tier 2 bin 5.
  • BMW is the only manufacturer to combine SCR and LNT, and then only in the US

This is a wonderful read. Highly recommended
I only gave it a cursory view...but it looks like, on average, the "clean diesels" aren't so...at least with respect to NOx
 

Andy_2009_JSW

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Atlanta, GA
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2009 Jetta Sportwagen TDI (DSG)[SOLD BACK], 2012 Golf 2.5L Gasser (5MT), 2017 Alltrack S (6MT)
So before I go to bed tonight, someone tell me why selling my TDI is a bad idea? How are you people so certain everything will turn out just great and this whole thing will just pass? I love my TDI. When I drove it today, I told myself "how could I get rid of this thing, it feels great!" but then I saw a nice clean looking 2.5 wagon go by and I said "it's almost the same car, just a different motor and no drama, boy wouldn't that be nice". Ahhhh!!!!!! I'm so conflicted! What crystal ball are you guys using?

Give me something to ponder while I brush my teeth and go to bed.
Meds. You need to get some anti-anxiety meds.

"Just a different motor"? Dat Torq my friend, oh Dat Torq... :D
 
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