Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[LRTDI]

Betting that the EPA had a wall of silence on the issues with test results.

Its this the tip of the iceberg?

 

[IFRCFI]

I wonder what made the university group curious (or suspicious)?

West Virginia University has a top tier engineering school. Part of it is an Alternative Fuels program. My guess is that this was part of a graduate research project. Good find on their part. Go Mountaineers!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Red Devil]

Why is it that "law enforcement" have become dirty words? Where is the "personal responsibility" stuff I hear so much about? If I'm caught speeding I get a ticket. Period. I'm the one violating the law. Blaming law enforcement for doing their JOB is ridiculous. If we can't stop bashing our law enforcement for doing their job we'll end up with our streets ridden with crime and companies screwing us left and right with impunity. VW KNEW the law and for several years the decided to CHEAT..They screwed us....promising something they couldn't deliver and took our hard earned $ KNOWING they were selling us an illegal car. They even had the CHUTZPAH to make a marketing campaign around "clean diesel"[/QUOTE
While I totally agree with you on the law enforcement issue you note, aren't you jumping ahead a bit on the issue? Neither have we heard a full statement by VW yet, nor has this whole case been adjudicated so to say they 'knew the law' or 'cheated' are just your and the uninformed media's quick jumping past facts to conclusions. Let's wait and see how this plays out, OK?

 

[meerschm]

The U.S. Congress holds the purse strings. All they need to do is pass a bill (and that could include a few lines in a totally unrelated bill, happens all the time) which makes state highway funds contingent on the state DMV requiring a detune for annual registration, and that is all she wrote. Every state DMV will fall in line overnight.

they could, but that would require congressional action. not something there is a lot of these days. they mostly are focused on the next election.

 

[Jeta Life]

I'm gonna be that guy:
ALH! ALH! ALH!
don't make them like they used to, I guess....
My condolences to any newer vw owners getting caught in this.

The ALH on this forum has the best customer satisfaction

That is exactly what VWs need to be like in the future. I was very close to trading to a ALH last month but elected to replace my DPF

You're lucky you have one ! Please wish us CR TDI owners luck.

 

[jbright]

Why is it that "law enforcement" have become dirty words? Where is the "personal responsibility" stuff I hear so much about? If I'm caught speeding I get a ticket. Period. I'm the one violating the law. Blaming law enforcement for doing their JOB is ridiculous. If we can't stop bashing our law enforcement for doing their job we'll end up with our streets ridden with crime and companies screwing us left and right with impunity. VW KNEW the law and for several years the decided to CHEAT..They screwed us....promising something they couldn't deliver and took our hard earned $ KNOWING they were selling us an illegal car. They even had the CHUTZPAH to make a marketing campaign around "clean diesel"[/QUOTE
While I totally agree with you on the law enforcement issue you note, aren't you jumping ahead a bit on the issue? Neither have we heard a full statement by VW yet, nor has this whole case been adjudicated so to say they 'knew the law' or 'cheated' are just your and the uninformed media's quick jumping past facts to conclusions. Let's wait and see how this plays out, OK?

Thank you.

 

[SageBrush]

West Virginia University has a top tier engineering school. Part of it is an Alternative Fuels program.

They were the lab; the driving force was a small Alt energy lobbying group in Europe.

If you read the Bloomberg article you will not have to guess wrong.

 

[vwlogue]

They even had the CHUTZPAH to make a marketing campaign around "clean diesel"

I'm not defending VW, but these TDIs are still clean diesel, period.

I'm a proud, informed owner and I will stick to my TDIs (and will avoid the recall as much as I can), BUT -- in this day and age where many come to a quick conclusion from just reading the headlines -- VW gave diesel a very bad name in the court of public opinion, and to me, that's what really sucks about this whole fiasco.

Whatever anyone thinks of the EPA regulations and the strenuously low NOx limits, VW still had to comply and should NOT have done this.

Outside diesel communities, VW will have a hard time regaining traction on TDI sales. We've been looking at this from the owner perspective. Try looking at it from the dealer's perspective. Most of us, including me, would say dealers deserve to get screwed, but man, they are indeed screwed by VW. The unsold 2015 inventory that are now on hold and cannot be sold (in the last quarter of 2015!) until VW clears up the issue and resume sale, not to mention the delayed 2016 TDIs, if they ever leave port before it's too far into 2016 cycle.

Public opinion, dealers, car reviewers, consumers, diesel fans, you name it - VW screwed themselves royally.

 

[nzpete]

I'm not defending VW, but these TDIs are still clean diesel, period.

I'm a proud, informed owner and I will stick to my TDIs (and will avoid the recall as much as I can), BUT -- in this day and age where many come to a quick conclusion from just reading the headlines -- VW gave diesel a very bad name in the court of public opinion, and to me, that's what really sucks about this whole fiasco.

Whatever anyone thinks of the EPA regulations and the low NOx limits, VW still had to comply and should NOT have done this.

Outside diesel communities, VW will have a hard time regaining traction on TDI sales. We've been looking at this from the consumer's perspective. Try looking at it from the dealer's perspective. Most of us, including me, would say dealers deserve to get screwed, but man, they are indeed screwed by VW. The unsold 2015 inventory that are now on hold and cannot be sold (in the last quarter of 2015!), not to mentioned the delayed 2016 TDIs, if they ever leave port before it's too far into 2016 cycle.

Public opinion, dealers, car reviewers, consumers, diesel fans, you name it - VW screwed themselves royally.

Fortunately, we're talking about Americans, here. Their attention spans are very short and once this is resolved it won't take long before folks forget all about it and simply worry about what a car costs and the mileage it gets. Very, very, very, few care about how much in the way of pollution it generates.

 

[2009-TDI]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/business/international/volkswagen-chief-apologizes-for-breach-of-trust-after-recall.html

Mr. Brauer said the higher nitrous oxide emissions probably meant better drivability. Fuel economy also improves with more nitrous emissions, and engines can run cooler, and thus wear out more slowly.

“They must have had a mix of performance, economy and durability that they liked, but realized they couldn’t achieve that and still get the emissions,” he said.

Diesels in particular are known — and marketed — these days as having tremendous torque, or low-end thrust from a stop. If achieving the required emissions affected the torque, making it anemic, then “drivers are going to scratch their heads, thinking, isn’t this why I got a diesel?” Mr. Brauer said.
Karl Brauer, an analyst at Kelley Blue Book
The vw dealer will see my car NOT!!!
But he can buy it from me, let say at about...$25.000. Not bad for a 2009 tdi with 140.000miles.

 

[SageBrush]

Here is a white paper from the smart fellow who uncovered the fraud testing 32 different diesels for 'on-road' NOx emissions.

Bullet points:

• Europe is planning to implement this on-road equivalent test from 2016
• Some cars pass under Euro 6 of 80 mg/km. I don't think any go under US Fed Tier 2 bin 5.
• BMW is the only manufacturer to combine SCR and LNT, and then only in the US

This is a wonderful read. Highly recommended

 

[Bueller]

I'm gonna be that guy:
ALH! ALH! ALH!
don't make them like they used to, I guess....
My condolences to any newer vw owners getting caught in this.

Lots of posts in this thread about the great ol' ALH. Funny thing is I owned one back when you could still buy one new, and much of what I read around here back then was about failing timing belts and engine damage, failing coolant temp sensors, glow plugs, myriad electrical problems, clogged intakes, failing turbos, failing MAF sensors, etc. I guess memory really is selective. Granted, I did not have all of these issues with the one we owned, but I did experience the joy of a clogged intake, 40k timing belt interval (before the long life belts were available), coolant sensor failure, and a few other odds & ends. I kept the car to 100,000 miles and got a new '05 BEW Jetta. Within a couple of years I was reading about ceramic glow plugs destroying engines, accelerated cam wear necessitating replacement of cam, followers, etc. costing thousands, lift pump failures, and on & on & on. Never had any of those issues except the lift pump failure at 85,000 miles (made sure I used the correct oil and serviced it on time as well - maybe that's why mine didn't have issues), sold it at 100k in 2010.


The commonality over all of those years was the repeated posting by frustrated owners about how junky each new version of those cars were, how VW was the antichrist, they don't build 'em like they used to, etc. Fast forward to today - it's 5 + years later, I have a new '15 Golf TDI (that is spectacular to drive, btw), and the pages here are still full of everything that is wrong with VW. 10 - 15 years from now posts about the good ol' EA288 "they don't make 'em like they used to" will be commonplace around here as well.


As for the EPA debacle I'll say it again - this too shall pass. Not sure exactly how the remedy will be applied, (reprogramming, equipment changes), but buybacks won't be part of the program. And VW will not pull out of the U.S. market, and they will sell diesels here in the future. If Audi didn't pull out of the U.S. market back in the '86 - '87 (I worked for them at the time) when unintended acceleration scares reduced their sales of Audi 5000's - by far their best selling car - by 90%, I can't imagine VW pulling out over this. The emission issues can be solved. All it takes is money, and now VW is going to be forced to spend it.
The whinging, widespread panic plastered to this thread about resale values and worthless cars is nothing short of hysterical to read and provides some great entertainment. Beyond that all of the energy spent worrying is absolutely wasted.
The sky is not falling, and these aren't the droids you're looking for.

 

[jbright]

I'm not defending VW, but these TDIs are still clean diesel, period.

I'm a proud, informed owner and I will stick to my TDIs (and will avoid the recall as much as I can), BUT -- in this day and age where many come to a quick conclusion from just reading the headlines -- VW gave diesel a very bad name in the court of public opinion, and to me, that's what really sucks about this whole fiasco.

Whatever anyone thinks of the EPA regulations and the strenuously low NOx limits, VW still had to comply and should NOT have done this.

Outside diesel communities, VW will have a hard time regaining traction on TDI sales. We've been looking at this from the owner perspective. Try looking at it from the dealer's perspective. Most of us, including me, would say dealers deserve to get screwed, but man, they are indeed screwed by VW. The unsold 2015 inventory that are now on hold and cannot be sold (in the last quarter of 2015!) until VW clears up the issue and resume sale, not to mention the delayed 2016 TDIs, if they ever leave port before it's too far into 2016 cycle.

Public opinion, dealers, car reviewers, consumers, diesel fans, you name it - VW screwed themselves royally.

I'm not sure how much confidence I have in the 'court of public opinion', especially when it comes to a matter as subtle yet complex as NOX emissions in 'clean diesel' vehicles. Yes, these cars are still amazingly clean. Every other person here in the Heartland is driving a gas guzzling SUV, mini-van, neo-muscle car, or status-mobile. My Jetta is an outstanding vehicle, and I love it. I will be watching what comes to pass and take the appropriate measures.

 

[nzpete]

..The whinging, widespread panic plastered to this thread about resale values and worthless cars is nothing short of hysterical to read and provides some great entertainment. Beyond that all of the energy spent worrying is absolutely wasted. The sky is not falling, and these aren't the droids you're looking for.

Amen, brother.
It is odd how folks pile on to the hysteria.

 

[vwUMO]

Lots of posts in this thread about the great ol' ALH. Funny thing is I owned one back when you could still buy one new, and much of what I read around here back then was about failing timing belts and engine damage, failing coolant temp sensors, glow plugs, myriad electrical problems, clogged intakes, failing turbos, failing MAF sensors, etc. I guess memory really is selective. Granted, I did not have all of these issues with the one we owned, but I did experience the joy of a clogged intake, 40k timing belt interval (before the long life belts were available), coolant sensor failure, and a few other odds & ends. I kept the car to 100,000 miles and got a new '05 BEW Jetta. Within a couple of years I was reading about ceramic glow plugs destroying engines, accelerated cam wear necessitating replacement of cam, followers, etc. costing thousands, lift pump failures, and on & on & on. Never had any of those issues except the lift pump failure at 85,000 miles (made sure I used the correct oil and serviced it on time as well - maybe that's why mine didn't have issues), sold it at 100k in 2010.
The commonality over all of those years was the repeated posting by frustrated owners about how junky each new version of those cars were, how VW was the antichrist, they don't build 'em like they used to, etc. Fast forward to today - it's 5 + years later, I have a new '15 Golf TDI (that is spectacular to drive, btw), and the pages here are still full of everything that is wrong with VW. 10 - 15 years from now posts about the good ol' EA288 "they don't make 'em like they used to" will be commonplace around here as well.
As for the EPA debacle I'll say it again - this too shall pass. Not sure exactly how the remedy will be applied, (reprogramming, equipment changes), but buybacks won't be part of the program. And VW will not pull out of the U.S. market, and they will sell diesels here in the future. If Audi didn't pull out of the U.S. market back in the '86 - '87 (I worked for them at the time) when unintended acceleration scares reduced their sales of Audi 5000's - by far their best selling car - by 90%, I can't imagine VW pulling out over this. The emission issues can be solved. All it takes is money, and now VW is going to be forced to spend it.
The whinging, widespread panic plastered to this thread about resale values and worthless cars is nothing short of hysterical to read and provides some great entertainment. Beyond that all of the energy spent worrying is absolutely wasted.
The sky is not falling, and these aren't the droids you're looking for.

Amen! not to mention a large % of newbs and people that don't even own a TDI posting... it's funny that this is the only place with such an uproar when this is supposed to be an enthusiast site. it's good entertainment though. More speculation than a CNN hostage situation!

 

[Scorchez]

I am planning to end this TDI drama tomorrow by trading in my 2012 Golf Wagon TDI (that's what we call them in Canada) for an equivalent model with the 2.5l gas motor. The 2.5l is reliable and, while not as fun as the TDI, will do the job just fine for my family. No stop orders (yet) in Canada so there is still time.

 

[Jeta Life]

True, I am one of a rare breed that still uses a sedan to transport a family of four in a sedan.

Can anyone tell me what in the world is going on with this CUV and SUV and Pickup craze. I for the life of me cannot figure it out.

Are they really that much safer than our VWs ?

Drive safe and you can avoid an accident. Some of these wild riders out there think its the wild wild west all over again.

There are maybe 2 or 3 bad storms per year in the Northeast. Why in the world do they need all that power and AWD for 2 or 3 blizzards a year.

A car with FWD can handle storms, even blizzards if you know how to be careful. I honestly think people are losing their minds.

Please SOMEBODY tell me what in the world is going on out there ? you need AWD maybe 2 or 3 times a year, what about the other 10 or 11 months ?

 

[kcompton]

I personally love both my TDi's with or without flaws, they are amazing machines and fun to drive!

I plan on keeping them both until they can't move anymore...

If there is a buyback, VW can try, without success, to take my 2015 TDi.

 

[S2000_guy]

Here's a thought: Maybe VW should turn to Malone or other tuning company to figure out a software re-flash that will allow for full emission control and maintain or improve performance? Wouldn't that be a hoot? I wonder if a 'Malone' tune totally rewrites/overwrites the software or only changes certain parameters while leaving everything else intact?

Does Malone (or any other "tuner") advertise a CARB certification for their tunes? If not, then I suspect that they don't meet EPA requirements...

 

[TDIpilot4u]

True, I am one of a rare breed that still uses a sedan to transport a family of four in a sedan.
Can anyone tell me what in the world is going on with this CUV and SUV and Pickup craze. I for the life of me cannot figure it out.
Are they really that much safer than our VWs ?
Drive safe and you can avoid an accident. Some of these wild riders out there think its the wild wild west all over again.
There are maybe 2 or 3 bad storms per year in the Northeast. Why in the world do they need all that power and AWD for 2 or 3 blizzards a year.
A car with FWD can handle storms, even blizzards if you know how to be careful. I honestly think people are losing their minds.
Please SOMEBODY tell me what in the world is going on out there ? you need AWD maybe 2 or 3 times a year, what about the other 10 or 11 months ?

Couldn't agree with you more. I guess it comes down to $$$ and http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/

 

[nzpete]

I am planning to end this TDI drama tomorrow by trading in my 2012 Golf Wagon TDI (that's what we call them in Canada) for an equivalent model with the 2.5l gas motor. The 2.5l is reliable and, while not as fun as the TDI, will do the job just fine for my family. No stop orders (yet) in Canada so there is still time.

Yup, wear loose clothing and prepare to bend over!

 

[Rudyjo]

I'm gonna be that guy:
ALH! ALH! ALH!
don't make them like they used to, I guess....

My condolences to any newer vw owners getting caught in this.

I am one of those new VW owners, having just bought my first VW diesel, a 2015 sportwagen .

It was reported today that VW has ordered dealers to no longer sell any TDi models on their lots. What makes them illegal to sell, but the same car that was on the lot two weeks ago when I bought mine is OK?
The only difference is that today VW has admitted what they did, they knew what they did two weeks ago and more likely two months ago.
The order to dealers to no longer sell TDi cars should have been sent out months ago when they realized they had a problem and would have to recall all these cars.
I realize that all TDi owners are going to be hurt in one way or another, but it is especially hard on us who spent what is a lot of money just a couple of weeks ago. VW knew this was coming and they just let it go business as usual until the were forced to admit it.
People who bought their TDi's in the last month should have been told that there was a potential problem and let them decide if they were still interested in buying.

 

[Scorchez]

Yup, wear loose clothing and prepare to bend over!

Ha! Well I'm naked right now with a pole up my butt owning this TDI. Can't get any worse than this #HPFP #DPFailure

 

[historiclady]

Outraged!

So, in 2010 I looked for a small wagon with good fuel economy. Up popped the Jetta Sportswagen and after some comparisons I bought it. considered the Prius, but did not want the hybrid. Looked at the Yaris, but liked the Jetta wagon better. Have loved all 204,000 miles I have driven, all the while knowing I was paying more per gallon for diesel, but thinking I was not polluting the air and was using less fuel per mile. Now I find I spent that extra money per gallon for nothing and did I pollute more than a gas vehicle? I guess so, since it sounds like my TDI will not pass emission test on the road. I feel thoroughly outraged and p****d off!! Looking forward to how VW is going to fix this mess!!

 

[nzpete]

Ha! Well I'm naked right now with a pole up my butt owning this TDI. Can't get any worse than this #HPFP #DPFailure

Everytime I see someone naked with a pole up their butt, they always say "it can't get any worse!"
Trade in that TDi tomorrow and you'll see.

 

[Scorchez]

So, in 2010 I looked for a small wagon with good fuel economy. Up popped the Jetta Sportswagen and after some comparisons I bought it. considered the Prius, but did not want the hybrid. Looked at the Yaris, but liked the Jetta wagon better. Have loved all 204,000 miles I have driven, all the while knowing I was paying more per gallon for diesel, but thinking I was not polluting the air and was using less fuel per mile. Now I find I spent that extra money per gallon for nothing and did I pollute more than a gas vehicle? I guess so, since it sounds like my TDI will not pass emission test on the road. I feel thoroughly outraged and p****d off!! Looking forward to how VW is going to fix this mess!!

Honestly, why wait, just sell now and get out of this mess. Assuming you can get a good price for it, just do it. I mean come on. It's not like VW is going to add a urea tank or anything to the 2009-2014 models. Too cost prohibitive. A new NOx trap, probably not. It's going to be a software fix and we know it. 100hp, 150lb-ft is probably what our cars will churn out after the "fix". Our TDIs will be turned into agricultural equipment.

 

[ronaldleemhuis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaldleemhuis
For a moment, let's look for the most benign explanation of VW's actions. Suppose, for example, that DPF regeneration is an occasional operating mode that has high levels of NOx, particulates etc. One relatively benign explanation would be that VW does not want the EPA test results to be influenced by a random, but very significant, DPF regeneration. They could rationalize that the EPA knows about this, and that if the EPA cared, they would design on-road, full cycle certification testing protocols.

...

I have carefully plotted the B1S2 oxygen sensor signal from my 2010 Jetta TDI (measuring group 38, field 4) and from my daughter's Golf TDI on typical 7 mile commuting trip. It shows a value of 0.126 about 5% of the time while the deNOx process is taking place. The signal exceeds this value (i.e. more than 0.126 and less than 0.5) about another 5% of the time. A look at the detailed waveforms shows the NOx storage and reduction cycles with only occasional interruption over a period of seconds, not minutes. Each long string of 0.126 values is preceded by a short rich burst and followed by a drop in O2 signal. This means that during typical cycling the NOx storage catalyst is not completely reduced (i.e. not all the NOx is removed with each cycle).

Another thing I noticed is that the percentile graph for O2 signal for values 0.126 and above follows a very stable and characteristic form, with percentiles from 0 to 99. It starts flat at 0.126 to a percentile of about 56, then rises in a curve convex upward to about 0.49 at a percentile of 99.
....

I think a picture or two would help a lot.
==========================================

I have some graphs but can't figure out how to make them visible on this site.

 

[Scorchez]

Everytime I see someone naked with a pole up their butt, they always say "it can't get any worse!"
Trade in that TDi tomorrow and you'll see.

If I loose 1k or so, big deal. After VW applies the 'fix' to your TDI, my 2.5l and any 15yr old Hyundai Accent will be kicking your butt once the light turns green.

TDI owners and VW owners in general are so delusional, that is what I have learned from my VW TDI experience. "German Engineering" they say...bull! The Japanese make better cameras, better steel, and much better cars. Suck it up people, these cars just suck!

 

[nzpete]

If I loose 1k or so, big deal. After VW applies the 'fix' to your TDI, my 2.5l and any 15yr old Hyundai Accent will be kicking your butt once the light turns green.

TDI owners and VW owners in general are so delusional, that is what I have learned from my VW TDI experience. "German Engineering" they say...bull! The Japanese make better cameras, better steel, and much better cars. Suck it up people, these cars just suck!

In other words, you really don't own a VW TDi.

 

[DEZLBOY]

Good article, author believes this could hurt the future of diesels in the USA, as hybrids and electric cars improve, and this breach of trust gives diesels a bad name.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/why-volkswagens-diesel-betrayal-different