Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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LRTDI

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Jun 15, 2002
Location
Red Sox Nation
TDI
RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
Wondering how much NOX gets kicked out by all those wood stoves we use....Mine's cranking right now....
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
How much of the onroad diesel nox2 is from commercial trucks? If this was broken out earlier, I apologize for asking again but this thread is a little unwieldy these days.
Given that commercial trucks outnumber VW diesels and pick-up truck diesels on the roads AND have much bigger engines putting out much more power to propel the vehicle down the road ... The on-road diesel NOx will be primarily (likely 90+%) from commercial trucking.
 

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Location
Alabama
TDI
2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2015 Jetta
Wondering how much NOX gets kicked out by all those wood stoves we use....Mine's cranking right now....
Keep the firebox under 1200-1300C and the answer is not much. Plenty of CO and CO2, probably a good bit of PM, but NOx, not so much.
 

Shaknar

New member
Joined
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Location
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2015 Jetta TDI S
I'm a programmer and that does not mean not equal to. Its actually: != :p

Yes, I inverted the ! and = signs. If I was in a program, the validation check feature would have told me. :D I also typically use <>...not certain why I defaulted to what I haven't used in years.

Please forgive me. ;)
 

SilverGhost

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Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
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'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
Sorry if it's been mentioned, but I'm not re-reading almost 700 pages to find it.

Service manager just got back from a regional dealer meeting and gave us confirmation of the speculation from our QTM, and both match what Mr. Horn said to congress. My CYA -THIS INFO IS NOT FINAL AND IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE BEFORE FINAL APPROVAL.

1) the current gen engine ('15-'16) will just get a software update.

2) one range of cars will get a software update and minor hardware update. People are not being clear with details, BUT it sounds like Passats with existing UREA and older engine will get a software update and a new NOx cat (durability?)

3) another range of cars will get large retrofit. Service manage was saying they told him could be 10 hours a car. Again there is some confusion as to exactly which cars, BUT it appears to be CR TDIs WITHOUT UREA that will get this repair. And again, we are speculating at this point, but it looks like UREA (AKA AdBlue) will be retrofitted to these cars.

The software is scheduled for likely beginning repairs in January 2016. The other repairs will be rolled out in stages. Obviously you can't fix a couple hundred thousand cars all at once. And don't rush down to your dealer before you get a letter - they don't have anything for you yet!

There was also some mention of a couple waves of gift cards being sent out for substantial values (hundreds of $$$ or more). Again - no details yet and I won't swear to it until it shows up in my mail box.

I will add more info as it comes down the pipe line, but from what I've heard from instructors and factory reps, VW seems to releasing info to press before or almost same time as they are telling their employees.

Jason
 

jims2321

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Joined
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Location
Sugar Hill, GA
TDI
2013 VW Jetta TDI 6mt, sold back, replacement 2017 Golf GTI Autobahn
Guess the one outstanding question I have is. Since my car is still under warranty for at least another year, and I pretty confident its going to need the major retrofit. If I happen to take it in for the 30K service and they are at the point of doing the retrofit, can I tell them not to do it? Do I have a choice if I want to continue to use the dealer service but do not want the pain and angst of them chopping and modifying my car?
 

ben2mx

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
SoCal
TDI
2013 Passat SE
Sorry if it's been mentioned, but I'm not re-reading almost 700 pages to find it.

Service manager just got back from a regional dealer meeting and gave us confirmation of the speculation from our QTM, and both match what Mr. Horn said to congress. My CYA -THIS INFO IS NOT FINAL AND IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE BEFORE FINAL APPROVAL.

1) the current gen engine ('15-'16) will just get a software update.

2) one range of cars will get a software update and minor hardware update. People are not being clear with details, BUT it sounds like Passats with existing UREA and older engine will get a software update and a new NOx cat (durability?)

3) another range of cars will get large retrofit. Service manage was saying they told him could be 10 hours a car. Again there is some confusion as to exactly which cars, BUT it appears to be CR TDIs WITHOUT UREA that will get this repair. And again, we are speculating at this point, but it looks like UREA (AKA AdBlue) will be retrofitted to these cars.

The software is scheduled for likely beginning repairs in January 2016. The other repairs will be rolled out in stages. Obviously you can't fix a couple hundred thousand cars all at once. And don't rush down to your dealer before you get a letter - they don't have anything for you yet!

There was also some mention of a couple waves of gift cards being sent out for substantial values (hundreds of $$$ or more). Again - no details yet and I won't swear to it until it shows up in my mail box.

I will add more info as it comes down the pipe line, but from what I've heard from instructors and factory reps, VW seems to releasing info to press before or almost same time as they are telling their employees.

Jason
I will be happy with extended warranty on most components of the vehicle.
 

fredthe

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Location
Bowie, MD
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagon SEL DSG
There was also some mention of a couple waves of gift cards being sent out for substantial values (hundreds of $$$ or more). Again - no details yet and I won't swear to it until it shows up in my mail box.
I wonder if they will tie the gift cards to having the refit done?

-Fred
 

romad

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
Prescott, AZ
TDI
2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
Sorry if it's been mentioned, but I'm not re-reading almost 700 pages to find it.

Service manager just got back from a regional dealer meeting and gave us confirmation of the speculation from our QTM, and both match what Mr. Horn said to congress. My CYA -THIS INFO IS NOT FINAL AND IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE BEFORE FINAL APPROVAL.

1) the current gen engine ('15-'16) will just get a software update.

2) one range of cars will get a software update and minor hardware update. People are not being clear with details, BUT it sounds like Passats with existing UREA and older engine will get a software update and a new NOx cat (durability?)

3) another range of cars will get large retrofit. Service manage was saying they told him could be 10 hours a car. Again there is some confusion as to exactly which cars, BUT it appears to be CR TDIs WITHOUT UREA that will get this repair. And again, we are speculating at this point, but it looks like UREA (AKA AdBlue) will be retrofitted to these cars.

The software is scheduled for likely beginning repairs in January 2016. The other repairs will be rolled out in stages. Obviously you can't fix a couple hundred thousand cars all at once. And don't rush down to your dealer before you get a letter - they don't have anything for you yet!

There was also some mention of a couple waves of gift cards being sent out for substantial values (hundreds of $$$ or more). Again - no details yet and I won't swear to it until it shows up in my mail box.

I will add more info as it comes down the pipe line, but from what I've heard from instructors and factory reps, VW seems to releasing info to press before or almost same time as they are telling their employees.

Jason
Well, all should be clear by Nov 20, 2015 as that is the deadline to announce the proposed fixes to CARB.
 

JCTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Location
Jersey City, NJ
TDI
2009 JSW, Platinum Gray/Art Gray
Guess the one outstanding question I have is. Since my car is still under warranty for at least another year, and I pretty confident its going to need the major retrofit. If I happen to take it in for the 30K service and they are at the point of doing the retrofit, can I tell them not to do it? Do I have a choice if I want to continue to use the dealer service but do not want the pain and angst of them chopping and modifying my car?
I would also opt for a decent buy-back offer over the retro-fit. I have a 2009, and have already endured leaking moon-roof tubes that flooded my spare tire compartment, replaced 'soot(?)' sensors, a cracked fuel pump (not the HPFP) (required a tow), a replaced turbo-charger (died during an especially cold morning start), and a new DPF ($6,000 repair done for free under the 8yr warranty)
The only thing left to go bad is the HPFP, but that is now extended to 10 yrs coverage so I plan on selling the car by 2017 anyway.
I'd rather just trade it in early than get the retrofit. They better plan a buy back option or I will seek legal counsel.

My email to VWofA from 2 wks ago has so far gone unanswered.
 

autdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2004
Location
Alabama
TDI
2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2015 Jetta
Can they tie your acceptance of gift card(s) to waiving any future litigation against them?
Any is the word that is problematic. Many of us have more than 1 VW, so saying that you waive any future litigation is too broad, and would be unlikely to stick. What exactly you are waiving typically has to be defined or enumerated. You also need to have a clear understanding of what VW intends to do on their half of the agreement. They can't have you agree not to sue, then go be negligent in what they do to the car, and expect the agreement to stick.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Guess the one outstanding question I have is. Since my car is still under warranty for at least another year, and I pretty confident its going to need the major retrofit. If I happen to take it in for the 30K service and they are at the point of doing the retrofit, can I tell them not to do it? Do I have a choice if I want to continue to use the dealer service but do not want the pain and angst of them chopping and modifying my car?
No one knows yet and it may depend on the requirements of your state/province.

It's pretty likely that some states/provinces will tie your next license plate registration renewal to having had VW sign off in some way that your car has had the necessary recall work done. CA already does this and there's no reason to expect that this will change. Ontario (Canada) has rumblings of doing the same thing.

Other states/provinces might not care.

As for those gift cards ... Also, no one knows yet. But if I were VW, I'd be tying any such incentives to getting the recall work done. The percentage of owners who get recall work done is rather low, industry-wide, and given that this particular recall basically has nothing in it for the owner (no personal benefit) and may introduce a minor aggravation (having to fill up with AdBlue, or increasing the AdBlue refill frequency) they are going to have to attract people to do it somehow.

No get it done ... no soup for you!
 

ray96disco

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagen
Given that commercial trucks outnumber VW diesels and pick-up truck diesels on the roads AND have much bigger engines putting out much more power to propel the vehicle down the road ... The on-road diesel NOx will be primarily (likely 90+%) from commercial trucking.
That's been my thought and, while we should strive for a cleaner planet, wouldn't it be much simpler to ban the old trucks or make them upgrade at the time of an engine overhaul, than mess with the little pissant TDI's? If everyone's upset about the additional "spewing" we do, why aren't they really raising a stink about the trucking industry as a whole?

Think of what that would do to our economy. More truck sales, more emissions systems installed. It's just a thought.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
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Location
Springfield, VA
TDI
‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
That's been my thought and, while we should strive for a cleaner planet, wouldn't it be much simpler to ban the old trucks or make them upgrade at the time of an engine overhaul, than mess with the little pissant TDI's? If everyone's upset about the additional "spewing" we do, why aren't they really raising a stink about the trucking industry as a whole?

Think of what that would do to our economy. More truck sales, more emissions systems installed. It's just a thought.
Old trucks are disappearing rapidly, and being replaced by new models with SCR and DPFs. Some of the new trucks have completely spotless exhaust pipes, which is very impressive.

The bigger deal would be shifting more long-haul freight traffic from trucks to rail. Rail is vastly more efficient than trucks and planes, although the trade-off is shipping time.
 

Phatburner

Active member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Location
Waterloo Ontario
TDI
2013 TDI wagon
I'm tired of having anxiety over all this. In Ontario my car doesn't even have to be tested till it turns 7 years old. It is still 5 years away from that. During that 5 years all will be revealed.
 

haunruh

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Location
White Rock BC Canada
TDI
2011 GOLF TDI/DSG Wagon
LMAO. No actually none of them is. Nitrous oxide = N2O
Wikipedia definition:
"NOx is a generic term for the mono-nitrogen oxides NO and NO2 (nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide).[1] They are produced from the reaction among nitrogen, oxygen and even hydrocarbons (during combustion), especially at high temperatures.[1] In areas of high motor vehicle traffic, such as in large cities, the amount of nitrogen oxides emitted into the atmosphere as air pollution can be significant. NOx gases are formed whenever combustion occurs in the presence of nitrogen – as in an air-breathing engine; they also are produced naturally by lightning. In atmospheric chemistry, the term means the total concentration of NO and NO2. NOx gases react to form smog and acid rain as well as being central to the formation of tropospheric ozone.

NOx should not be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O), which is a greenhouse gas and has many uses as an oxidizer, an anesthetic, and a food additive."

.... emphasis my own ...
Harry
 

SilverGhost

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Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
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TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
As to the gift cards - as it was relayed to me. There will be letters mailed and confirmation of some sort so they send the cards to people that actually still own these cars. There should be 2 (two) gift cards mailed, and I suspect they will tie at least one of them to getting the recall done. Also it is expected that one card will be a generic (Visa, AMEX, MasterCard, etc.) card that can be used anywhere. The other card is expected to be valid only at VW dealerships, presumably for parts and service.

I heard $500 and $1000 thrown around. I suspect there will be other amounts and depend on which car you have (and how much you would be inconvenienced) by the repairs needed for the recall.

No word about requiring this recall, beyond states (IE: California) and Providences that already require open recalls for registration renewal. Not sure EPA even has the authority to require or compel the work to be done on a national level.

Jason
 

giuseppe_b

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Location
Albuquerque, NewMexico
TDI
2015 Golf SportWagen SE 6MT
After all this drama with CR TDIs it almost makes sense to go for an older model diesel, I was close to many times.

Keep me away from Autotrader because when I see these old Benz diesels I would almost go to any lot in America to trade in from a $5000 2009 TDI to an older ALH or Benz Turbo Diesel.

Those older diesels are tougher and will probably outlast the CRs.
Yes, I have been thinking the same thing. Last year I was so focused on getting the 2010 Jetta and did not take the chance on a 2004 TDI Wagon Manual. Sometimes I find to kick myself for this, but I wanted something that has less black smoke. And I do love the CR!
 

MonsterTDI09

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Location
NoVa/NJ
TDI
2010 Jetta DSG/ up keep on 2009 Jetta DSG 2006 Jetta Pag 2 in North SEA Green
Sorry if it's been mentioned, but I'm not re-reading almost 700 pages to find it.

Service manager just got back from a regional dealer meeting and gave us confirmation of the speculation from our QTM, and both match what Mr. Horn said to congress. My CYA -THIS INFO IS NOT FINAL AND IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE BEFORE FINAL APPROVAL.

1) the current gen engine ('15-'16) will just get a software update.

2) one range of cars will get a software update and minor hardware update. People are not being clear with details, BUT it sounds like Passats with existing UREA and older engine will get a software update and a new NOx cat (durability?)

3) another range of cars will get large retrofit. Service manage was saying they told him could be 10 hours a car. Again there is some confusion as to exactly which cars, BUT it appears to be CR TDIs WITHOUT UREA that will get this repair. And again, we are speculating at this point, but it looks like UREA (AKA AdBlue) will be retrofitted to these cars.

The software is scheduled for likely beginning repairs in January 2016. The other repairs will be rolled out in stages. Obviously you can't fix a couple hundred thousand cars all at once. And don't rush down to your dealer before you get a letter - they don't have anything for you yet!

There was also some mention of a couple waves of gift cards being sent out for substantial values (hundreds of $$$ or more). Again - no details yet and I won't swear to it until it shows up in my mail box.

I will add more info as it comes down the pipe line, but from what I've heard from instructors and factory reps, VW seems to releasing info to press before or almost same time as they are telling their employees.

Jason
To me that time is a little short for the repair.
 

razorrod

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Location
US
TDI
Passat SEL
Agree 100%.
I love how he called them - "eco-mentalists" . Perfect description. And all this argument about global climate is true as well.



Jeremy Clarkson comments on VW scadal, and the latest news on the former UK Top Gear trio shooting their new auto show for Amazon Prime. Scroll 2/3rds the way down the webpage to read "Jeremy Clarkson springs to the defence of Volkswagen - September 28":
http://www.theweek.co.uk/jeremy-cla...s-more-nudity-if-it-wants-to-survive/page/0/1
 

d2freeman

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Location
NC
TDI
2013 Passat SE
I get the following when I enter the VIN for my 2013.
Service Campaigns
Service campaigns shown may be available for a limited time only. Please contact your authorized VW dealer for additional information.
REPAIR NOT YET AVAILABLE.
Volkswagen 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI Emissions Issue
VW ACTION CODE 23Q2
START DATE 10-09-2015
DESCRIPTION
The Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board have determined that some Volkswagen 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI vehicles do not comply with applicable emissions regulations.
REMEDY
We cannot offer a firm date now because we need to work on the remedy and review it with the government. We are proceeding as quickly as possible. It's important to note that the EPA has stated that vehicles identified with this emissions issue are safe and legal to drive. However, as indicated herein, your vehicle may be subject to other recalls or service actions that require your immediate attention.
 

Shife

Veteran Member
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Michigan
TDI
2015 GSW SE DSG White/Beige
LMAO. No actually none of them is. Nitrous oxide = N2O
Yeah... in the midst of all the leet speek I made a typo and didn't put a 2 between N and O. That's how f*#&#*) ridiculous this thread has become.

By all means let's get back to the fragile nanny state crybabies who keep crying about how they want their money back on a 5 year old car they thought farted rainbows and ran on happy thoughts.
 

Jeta Life

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Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Location
NJ & North Pocono
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI DSG Auto
Yes, I have been thinking the same thing. Last year I was so focused on getting the 2010 Jetta and did not take the chance on a 2004 TDI Wagon Manual. Sometimes I find to kick myself for this, but I wanted something that has less black smoke. And I do love the CR!
Gotta love what you have, CRs have their own appeal. The DSG helps this car, as does Electronic Stability and the Electromechanical steering, softer suspension.
It's all about the torque and power with these CRs. The main thing is we've got DPFs to worry about, ALH doesn't. And the elephant is the grenading HPFPs which are rare and less of a fear factor with ALH.
What I think has helped my CR is driving it with reckless abandon. I bully the heck out of it sometimes and the power is astounding. Will make a civic, Corolla or Elantra look like the toasters they are.
Gotta live a little, these little TDIS have Porsche and Audi DNA and those Japanese cars are boring, unless you go for Lexus, Acura or Infiniti.
Me I'd rather crash in a VW they are engineered for high speed collision on the Autobahn, I don't think those econoboxes will save your life so they must be driven very conservatively whereas our TDIs have that X factor.
My TDI weighs about 3300 lbs and the Mark 5 chassis is very rigid. VW spent a lot of money on the Mark 5 when they upgraded the factories. A lot of laser welding, hope they can last like the ALHs.
Peace
 
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