Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[newbeetleman]

He said that he is a criminal lawyer working in CA on prison reform, it was about a hundred pages back...Mark

lol, that would explain why I didn't see any response.

 

[SageBrush]

Let's all admit that Volkswagen was advertising emissions compliance?
Here's a press release claiming emissions compliance: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/18/volkswagen-prices-jetta-tdi-from-21-990/
Now, that means that they misrepresented the product. However, you have to show damages that you personally incurred as a result of their fraud. Right now, you can't.

Does that mean that a manufacturer of a car misrepresented in how much power it produces is also immune from private litigation since no harm has occurred ?

 

[kydsid]

I might point out that years ago it was considered ludicrous that you could successfully sue a company making a legal product, which also had a label warning of its hazards.

That was before the billions of dollars in judgements piled up against the tobacco industry.

Or consider McDonald's and the infamous hot coffee lawsuit.

My point is not to say that all of these lawsuits against VW are justified, although some of them certainly are. Personally, I have not decided what to do. This even though I have paperwork from one law firm awaiting my signature for an individual suit.

My point is that those who think that none of these suits can be won are woefully deluded. VW knows this too. That is probably why they will negotiate settlements rather than go to court with the vast majority of them. Juries can be fickle.

Umm it seems You are using the hot coffe and tobacco case s n a totally wrong context. You should at least look up the hot coffee case. I dont think you understand why the plaintiff sued or won.

 

[SageBrush]

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/vw-dies...edive-while-waiting-repair-news#ixzz3phmnvMtW

Thanks, that was interesting reading.

 

[TDILeo]

Anyways. I'm rambling. But I've seen an exorbitant amount of waste built into contracts to help keep agencies compliant with other agencies. It sickens me to see 30% of a contract being spent on over watering a ditch. There's much worse out there too...trust me. I think the EPA is out of control.

You're not rambling. We probably should keep the political chatter to a minimum, but point taken. It is why we need an independent and assertive GAO to ride herd over our spent tax dollars.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

Hey Jack DE please make your picture smaller thanks.

 

[bizzle]

Thanks, that was interesting reading.

These kinds of articles are giving people a misguided sense of the value of their car. We shouldn't be assessing value based on auction trends, but rather private sales.

 

[czeetah]

Well all the pre 2009's omitted greater noX levels than the current models do. Should we as a society wipe them out too?

No, the current models emit more nox than any VW diesel going back like 30 years.

 

[gcodori]

For those using the hot coffee case as an example - note that the jury actually found Ms. Liebeck partially responsible for the injuries she sustained.

Yes, the jury can be fickle. They can say that you knew that these cars over delivered on MPG and that was a reason for buying the car.

You may get nothing because it's reasonable to assume that you will only get the EPA rated mileage, anything more is just a bonus. They could point out that some people only get 36 MPG, and that "your mileage may vary" - there is no guarantee that you'll get 50 MPG every time you take a drive.

 

[SageBrush]

These kinds of articles are giving people a misguided sense of the value of their car. We shouldn't be assessing value based on auction trends, but rather private sales.

Misguided ? Why ?
Certainly not misguided for someone who wants to trade-in their car, and not obvious to me why auctions and private sale prices would not move in the same direction; in fact, along similar percentage trajectories.

The article certainly does not support the notion thrown out here that the value of TDIs will increase due to low supply. VW is storing the cars returned to them and yet the prices on the remaining cars available is dropping. That seems consistent with the reports of VW dealerships having few shoppers -- demand for VW cars is down, and demand for VW diesels down even further.

A contradicting datum is VW sales, but I don't know specifics of how they count or what the latest period covers.

 

[TDILeo]

In one for DUI, eleven of us wanted to acquit (police had no blood or other test as well as numerous other reasons) but the one holdout kept saying, "If they hadn't done anything wrong, the police would not have stopped them." It ended up a hung jury, 11-1 for acquittal. Don't know if the gov't retried the case or not.

OMG. The 'holdout' has an interesting notion of logic. A jury of your 'peers' indeed.

If stupidity was weather, 'holdout' would be an F6 hurricane.

 

[bring]

Nowhere in the picture is any claim of environmentally friendly green car made. Any inference you draw from it is of your own making.

Hahahahahahaha - so I should interpret the green leaves painted on the car to mean it goes off road?

Nice try....

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I think a judge and/or jury might agree with you and not with those VW apologists here.

I am pretty sure I posted this picture first... and.....

The word CLEAN and DIESEL is an oxymoron. It is clearly cleaner ...
There is no ICE, especially a diesel that is CLEAN and doesn't pollute.

If you think it blew leaves and sunflowers out the wheel wells because of a
green color vinyl sticker, it was YOU projecting your wishes onto it. My
gosh folks, this is called MARKETING... and pretty genius, the leaves are in
the shape of flames, like a HOT ROD... cool. It had ZERO influence on me
when I bought my car. What is your damage for VW calling it clean? Look
at the EPA sticker, the car was only 5 out 10 on the goodness scale. If your
claim for a lawsuit is you bought it to save the planet, good luck on that.

As far as JUDGE and JURY... What judge and jury? Where is this JURY
TRIAL? What is the claim, you were fooled by advertising and thought this
thing purified air as you drove? Get serious folks. The violation is a FEDERAL LAW...
As far as hurt feelings you can't sue for that.

 

[romad]

The PhD/ME's solution is wind-up cars?

Not as far-fetched as you might think. There are vehicles on the road now that use large heavy flywheels to store energy, though it has never caught on for mainstream cars and trucks.

 

[romad]

That's what is unfortunately wrong with society these days. Too many folks wanting to sue and claim harm for frivolous things. I was just watching Friday Night Lights on Netflix last night and saw when the paralyzed QB sues the head coach because "he wasn't taught how to tackle correctly". Give me a break.

Actually I think such maroons are mostly in these United States, probably due to our excessive number of lawyers, along with judges that refuse to throw out these frivolous cases (those that file them should be given stiff fines for doing so). Unfortunately, people seem to think they are "entitled" to make such suits.

 

[bring]

The word CLEAN and DIESEL is an oxymoron.

Agree

 

[jrock]

The word CLEAN and DIESEL is an oxymoron.

So are ICEV, HEV, PHEV, BEV and EREV

 

[tsingtao]

So are ICEV, HEV, PHEV, BEV and EREV

Not to mention PZEV

 

[k^2]

Not to forget the ECO Boost!

 

[TCBinaflash]

Let's all admit that Volkswagen was advertising emissions compliance?

Here's a press release claiming emissions compliance: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/18/volkswagen-prices-jetta-tdi-from-21-990/

Now, that means that they misrepresented the product. However, you have to show damages that you personally incurred as a result of their fraud. Right now, you can't.

I remember looking at the third party testing of mileage estimates and thought "who is telling the truth here?" VW also heavily promoted the fact these cars were independently tested for better fuel ratings and now with hindsight- was this just a brazen maneuver or just uninformed marketing folks?

Crazy that no one even looked into this since the numbers are so far apart.

Oh and as far as damages, that is easy- look at the resale values. This issue has a direct link to the car' value.

 

[S2000_guy]

I have a 2011 Jetta TDI wagon with 50K miles. I got the apology letter from VW last month signed by Mr. Horn. I wrote them a letter and here is the summary:

Car will have no resale value till its "fixed." Once it is "fixed" you get to say we have fixed the problem, now buy our cars. Screw the customer, we fixed the problem.

Whatever "fix" you will implement will affect mpg, reliability and of course, since VW never lies to its customers, the fix will work. The customer bears the damage of the "fix" in all cases.

All I can do is put my stuff on the Internet and see if people agree with me.

Sent the letter to VW. Some guy in VW called to say he wants to "discuss" the issues that I wrote about. Haven't heard from him. I will send a letter VW Germany and then buy a website so that I can put this up on the Internet.

Very frankly, I do admire the ballsy approach that they took to make "clean diesel" work. They used good software to address a problematic issue but they got caught. Next step for VW is to figure out who has to be blessed with money to make this all go away. The customer at best comes in last in this equation.

You could also write to the several Congresspersons who appeared at the hearing with Michael Horn; since 45 State Attorneys General and one from DC are "investigating" the VW scam, you could also write to your state Attorney General. Personally, I think the Attorney General might get better results for us.

I know that this is the approach I'll be taking over the next few days: no more arguing on the web, and more effort directed to actually trying to influence the outcome of this debacle.

 

[Jack-DE]

Not to forget the ECO Boost!

I really like Eco Boost

 

[bhtooefr]

I remember looking at the third party testing of mileage estimates and thought "who is telling the truth here?" VW also heavily promoted the fact these cars were independently tested for better fuel ratings and now with hindsight- was this just a brazen maneuver or just uninformed marketing folks?

Crazy that no one even looked into this since the numbers are so far apart.

Keep in mind that TDIs had long had a reputation of beating their estimates, especially ever since the changes to fuel economy estimates in 2007.

 

[S2000_guy]

While I want to keep discussions of electric vehicles in the electric vehicle thread, I'd like to point out that electric vehicles are also 100 year old technology, along with diesel and gasoline internal combustion engines.

 

[whitedog]

Not inside the boiler.

But the combustion takes place outside of the expansion chamber. That's the part that makes it external combustion.

 

[Diesl]

Crazy that no one even looked into this since the numbers are so far apart.

Which numbers are far apart? TDI real world fuel mileage, as logged on Fuelly for example, is pretty much right on the sticker numbers.

 

[romad]

While I want to keep discussions of electric vehicles in the electric vehicle thread, I'd like to point out that electric vehicles are also 100 year old technology, along with diesel and gasoline internal combustion engines.

And wind vehicles go back 155 years in these United States (though supposedly China had them back in the 6th Century or about 1300 years before the 19th Century). So, as the saying goes, there is nothing new under the sun (at least until we develop the "reactionless" drives of SciFi).

 

[S2000_guy]

Perhaps I should have used the term "electric cars" rather than vehicles?

 

[Sharkey]

Actually, there's a lot of new stuff going on with wind powered vehicles

 

[romad]

Perhaps I should have used the term "electric cars" rather than vehicles?

I interpreted "vehicles" as meaning "land vehicles", so my post refers only to wind "powered" land vehicles.