Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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linux_author

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this forum software is HORKED! this particular thread is NOT displaying properly - a shame, really... ah well, i've enjoyed it...

willie
on the OS X Yosemite, Firefox 41.0.1 Gulf of Mexico
 
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Right. By not following the correct steps as mandated, they were able to create their predetermined outcome. This is EXACTLY the same thing that CR did back in 1988. So basically CR cheated to get the results they wanted, VW cheated to get the results they wanted, and the EPA cheated to get the results they wanted. All three were in the wrong. Now if the EPA had correctly and legally changed the procedure for certifying the 2016 cars to what they used as you described, then they would have caught VW with a legitimate test procedure.

Hopefully, both VW and the EPA have learned from this and there will be better and more legitimate emissions tests for certification. Perhaps the EPA should hire some "hackers" to try and spoof the certification tests and procedures?

I fail to see how the EPA cheated: To reiterate, part of the application for certification of the engine includes a form, signed by VW management, wihf fully declares any and all supplimental emission control devices to the EPA.

There are face to face meetings with EPA (and CARB) technical staff many months before the actual certification is submitted, and Supplimental devices are required to be explained upfront. This is understood by ALL manufacturers.

Saying you "forgot" to declare software that affects emissions, either on or off cycle on the submitted paperwork is akin to saying the dog ate your homework.

Again, Management is submitting a signed document, which if untrue, or incomplete by design, is purgury.

The EPA reviews the document and either accepts the application for certification of supplimental devices on face value or, in 99% of cases, requests additional test and analysis results to support the request for supplimental devices.

The EPA does not accept supplimental devices (or software) which are submitted to cover up problems which arise because the company is a "Technical Laggard" (their words).

The submissions to the EPA are reviewes by several levels of management in ALL engine producers. The guy who writes code or calibrates is NOT the guy who submits and signs the paperwork.

The original supplimental devices from back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s were hardware or additional devices. With the advent of electronics, they do include additional hardware or sensors, but are more typically software control algorithims.

The only way VW got through certification is To lie to the regulators by submitting signed, fraudulant documents. It looks to me that they did this because they wer pushing technology which fits the description of "Technical Laggard".
 

Philpug

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It is showing pages past 612. Shut down this thread and continue on a new one? But then the page views and SEO take a hit.
 

hybridkiller

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Actually, quite a few have told me, point blank, that they believe it's a good deal, but just aren't willing to pay it because they believe TDI values will continue to fall and, whether or not they're right, I actually understand the thinking.
Please take my comments as an attempt to be friendly and reassuring, and not as argumentative.

I don't know how old you are, and it doesn't matter. I've been on this planet long enough to have seen a whole bunch of stuff like this come and go. This too shall pass, believe me. This is on everyone's radar right now because the media loves a good scandal, and this one is (literally) world class. But there's a thing called headline fatigue that is as certain as the proverbial death and taxes. Despite all the grumbling and outrage, VW will get past this and so will everyone else. These cars had a robust resale value before in spite of all the HPFP/DPF/intercooler horror stories - and they will again once this mess blows over.

I understand your frustration because you were already trying to sell when this thing broke, and that sucks. But I would bet good hard earned money that resale and trade-in values will recover - and sooner than a lot of people think.
 
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dhectorg

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Please take my comments as an attempt to be friendly and reassuring, and not as argumentative.

I don't know how old you are, and it doesn't matter. I've been on this planet long enough to have seen a whole bunch of stuff like this come and go. This too shall pass, believe me. This is on everyone's radar right now because the media loves a good scandal, and this one is (literally) world class. But there's a thing called headline fatigue that is as certain as the proverbial death and taxes. Despite all the grumbling and outrage, VW will get past this and so will everyone else. These cars had a robust resale value before in spite of all the HPFP/DPF/intercooler horror stories - and they will again once this mess blows over.

I understand your frustration because you were already trying to sell when this thing broke, and that sucks. But I would bet good hard earned money that resale and trade-in values will recover - and sooner than a lot of people think.
I've been around long enough ;)

I realized long ago that I am not a patient person, particularly when it comes to individual (and more so) corporate malfeasance. Corporations frequently screw consumers over and get away with it. THAT is what makes me angry, not the people that won't buy my car. I hold no malice toward anyone, other than VW because their shady actions put me in this situation. Anyway, I hope you are right, but I have my doubts since the gen 1 fix will take years. Owners that want to sell are likely just screwed.
 

hybridkiller

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Seriously, that might turn out to be a great selling point, I can see it now: "Excellent condition, pampered, pre-fix TDI for sale!"

We'll likely know what the side-effects of the recall will be in a few months. It shouldn't matter to a prospective buyer if the fix on your car has been done, they'll still have the option to have it done or not. Like I said, may actually be a selling point.
 
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DieselOx

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Right. By not following the correct steps as mandated, they were able to create their predetermined outcome. ...
The EPA is not MANDATED to do anything, they get to SAY what the test will be. They have set up specific tests to better compare across manufacturers; the test results are supposed to be a snapshot of what a car emits during a range of driving scenarios. The car is supposed to emit only what the test shows in all similar driving scenarios, regardless of test parameters, subject to negotiated exceptions, using the AECDs that were disclosed and agreed to.

On-road testing is coming, and the EPA has stated that it will not share all specifics of all tests, so manufacturers cannot continue to design to the test, and illegally emit more in other scenarios.

EPA cannot cheat, they are the umpires, the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction): they have the last say, and if you don't like it, tough (well, actually, sue, but you better have a strong case).
 

pfennig

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Seriously, that might turn out to be a great selling point, I can see it now: "Excellent condition, pampered, pre-fix TDI for sale!"

We'll likely know what the side-effects of the recall will be in a few months. It shouldn't matter to a prospective buyer if the fix on your car has been done, they'll still have the option to have it done or not. Like I said, may actually be a selling point.

What if someone keeps their car in 'pre-fix' state for say two years.... will VW still be required to implement the fix after all that time? Or will the recall be a "here's your notice, bring it in within 3 months or you're on your own dime if you want the new exhaust system later on"? Is there precedent known from other recalls?
 

Marsupial

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'15 Golf TDI DSG S
Micheal Horn = Christoph Waltz
Wintercorn = Walter Herzog
Faceless EPA types = Emily Blunt / Tom Hanks
West Virginia U. engineers = Jason Sudeikis / Anthony Mackie / Kate Mara
Mad as Hell owners = Gabrielle Union / Andrew Garfield / Mark Ruffalo / Olga Kurylenko / Amy Adams / Rami Malek
Class Action attorneys = Michael Fassbinder / John Voight / Cate Blanchett
U.S. Judge = Morgan Freeman
You had me at Olga Kurylenko..., it's the scars...
 

tvmaster

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And starring in the role of the iron-fisted superhero/avenger "TDI Justice Man"...

Gerard Butler

But wait - you're going to waste Cate Blanchett as a mere lawyer? No no no, she should play the grieving mother of a child who died inhaling TDI exhaust - and now she wants revenge!

amateurs (shakes head)...
"waste" Cate? Never. The pivotal courtroom climax will center around her sharp, legal prowess and discovery of hidden VW documents, implicating the top execs. But she can have a sick kid as her 'inciting incident' if you like.
And it's 'Werner' Herzog, not 'Walter' (bloody autocorrect)
 

1854sailor

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Yes, I know that I'll probably get banned for this post, but would the moderators PLEASE close this thread. It is a total waste of bandwidth. Done here!
 

tariq

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What if someone keeps their car in 'pre-fix' state for say two years.... will VW still be required to implement the fix after all that time?
VW will still be working on those 430,000 Gen 1's in two years. No worries there (that's sarcasm btw :)).
 

JettaJedi

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Generation 1 proposed fix: VW does a one for one trade of the new 2015-16 tdi models embargoed in ports and dealers all over US as a no cash trade for Gen 1 models. Bring in a Gen 1 non-scr car and leave with a new model that can be compliant with a software tweak. Take the gen 1s and ship them to a more forgiving emissions "state" like... South Africa...End of story... now back to my other dream... ;)
 
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tvmaster

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Generation 1 proposed fix: VW does a one for one trade of the new 2015-16 tdi models embargoed in ports and dealers all over US as a no cash trade for Gen 1 models. Bring in a Gen 1 non-scr car and leave with a new model that can be compliant with a software tweak. Take the gen 1s and ship them to a more forgiving emissions "state" like... South Africa...End of story... now back to my other dream... ;)
I believe in your dream.....lol

can we get someone to sing "Wind Beneath Your Wings"?
 

hybridkiller

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"waste" Cate? Never. The pivotal courtroom climax will center around her sharp, legal prowess and discovery of hidden VW documents, implicating the top execs. But she can have a sick kid as her 'inciting incident' if you like.
I guess I just can't think of her without remembering that scene in "Heaven" when they tell her that her bomb killed 2 innocent children. The look of total, utter devastation on her face is one of the finest bits of acting I've ever seen. She's never better than when she's played a rational person that's gone slightly (or a lot) off the rails...
 

jjm

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2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI SE; 2017 Golf TSI Wolfsburg (replaced 2012 Golf Hatch (Bought back by VW)
A warm-up strategy is NOT necessarily a "defeat device". An "auxiliary emission control device" is NOT necessarily a "defeat device". An apparatus to warm up the emission control equipment faster is NOT necessarily a "defeat device". An apparatus to reduce emissions during engine warm-up is NOT necessarily a "defeat device"!
Every single car out there has a warm-up strategy which is an "auxiliary emission control device". The gasoline engines start and run in an open-loop mode until the oxygen sensor is hot enough to give a signal and until the engine can accept running at stochiometric, and if it is equipped with EGR, it is generally off at this time (NOx is not usually a problem during warm-up ... it's a product of heat, and the engine is cold!), and the engine generally runs with late ignition timing in order to encourage catalyst light-up. If the car has a secondary air injection system, it generally operates during this time to compensate for the engine having to operate slightly rich and to help the unburned stuff burn.
This is a different strategy from the closed-loop, EGR-on (if equipped), secondary-air-off (if equipped), stoichiometric operation that it operates in once everything is warmed up.
Once again ... doing stuff to the engine in order to expedite getting into the normal emission control system operating mode, to reduce cold start emissions, is an "auxiliary emission control device", EVERY engine has this, it has been accepted by the EPA, it is not a "defeat device", and it is legal because on the overall, it reduces emissions by shortening the warm-up phase and directly reducing emissions during that warm-up phase!
VW's current problem is that they didn't disclose it. I suspect VW collectively misinterpreted the meaning of "auxiliary emission control device", whether intentionally or not; I suspect not ... it's easy to misinterpret that phrase; I knew about the warm-up logic but didn't know it was considered an "auxiliary emission control device" until this brouhaha started ...
Thanks for a nice clear clarification. I have been jumping in and out of this thread daily, so I may have missed this but is the 2016 engine the same as the 2015 and only the software differs for this auxiliary emission control device?
 

peiphil

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I have to laugh at folks complaining about not seeing next pages!
Just look at the time in the left top of each post.
For example this one would read at my time that is about 12.08 am
The forum shows 2 more plus last pages that are not there yet!
 

JettaJedi

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I believe in your dream.....lol

can we get someone to sing "Wind Beneath Your Wings"?
I think it will more likely be Nina singing "99 LuftBalloonen disappear in LA smog"...
I can think of some great VW spoof tv commercials just waiting to be made...
From the company that gave us "clean diesel" we now give you... FahrfrumKleanen. Backround music: nina's black ballons exploding in black puff of smoke while choking swallows from Capistrano wearing Carb outfits.... ok that's it I'm done...
 
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Philpug

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Gone but not forgotten
I have to laugh at folks complaining about not seeing next pages!
Just look at the time in the left top of each post.
For example this one would read at my time that is about 12.08 am
The forum shows 2 more plus last pages that are not there yet!
If you go to NEW POSTS I see 9234 posts. I come into the thread and I see 9180 posts. There is another page past the one that I am on, page 92 and I see page 93 and I cannot access it.
 

peiphil

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How many do you think posted in the 12 minutes between my post and yours?
Mine was 8189 and yours is 8191
There just aint no more there!
 

JSWTDI09

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Yes, I know that I'll probably get banned for this post, but would the moderators PLEASE close this thread. It is a total waste of bandwidth. Done here!
This thread serves a valuable purpose. It gives all of the (rightly) POed newbies a place to vent their anger and frustration. If we don't let them vent here, they start new threads all over this site. The moderators have done an incredible job keeping all of this "venting" in one place. The nice thing about this one thread is that you don't have to actually read most of it. Any actually important news will show up in the official "facts" thread which is locked from public posting.

If you go to NEW POSTS I see 9234 posts. I come into the thread and I see 9180 posts. There is another page past the one that I am on, page 92 and I see page 93 and I cannot access it.
This has been asked and answered several times. It is the way this forum's software works. This thread has had MANY deleted posts (you think the ones you have read are bad - you ought to see some of the ones that were immediately deleted by the mods). Anyway, the forum software does not properly re-pagenate the pages after posts are deleted. Therefore page numbers are all messed up. It is better than the alternative (seeing all those deleted posts). You are on the last page and the end is the end, it is just the page numbers that are wrong. It is what it is. We have to live with it until this forum moves to different software.

Have Fun!

Don
 

S2000_guy

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That was not communicated to me when I purchased it at USP Motorsports, which is an APR re-seller. But then again, this is Florida, where we have no emissions tests at all, so there would be no reason for them to.

However, I am surprised to hear that, because clearly there must be several states where that tune might be considered illegal.
Actually, that tune is illegal in all fifty states. Federal law technically applies, even in areas where it isn't actively enforced. Federal law allows for a $2500 fine for "altering, removing, or tampering with an emissions control device on any emissions controlled engine." Caveat emptor.
 

tvmaster

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Socal
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2010 JSW
I think it will more likely be Nina singing "99 LuftBalloonen disappear in LA smog"...
I can think of some great VW spoof tv commercials just waiting to be made...
From the company that gave us "clean diesel" we now give you... FahrfrumKleanen. Backround music: nina's black ballons exploding in black puff of smoke while choking swallows from Capistrano wearing Carb outfits.... ok that's it I'm done...
Hey, Nena's still releasing product, she's a German goddess.
And here's one of a few, classic VW commercials, and for TDI!

http://youtu.be/n0ukGgMsl3E

and yes, this thread is somewhat therapeutic for those of us awaiting VW's likely letdown...
 
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JettaJedi

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U owe me a new keyboard...ruined by sprayed coffee:D
Sorry, lol. ok I see you didn't like that commercial...
how about this Lexus commercial but change the car at the end to a white Passat TDI with an end screen text of..."you really should have.... because you're already a cheater. The Passat TDI." fade to black....
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=urthkwrW75w
 

JettaJedi

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Hey, Nena's still releasing product, she's a German goddess.
And here's one of a few, classic VW commercials, and for TDI!

http://youtu.be/n0ukGgMsl3E

and yes, this thread is somewhat therapeutic for those of us awaiting VW's likely letdown...
Lol! That's a funny one. Going to miss Jeremy and the gang.
Nena - wow didnt know. how old is she now? she must have had at least sme minor German engineering to keep the Luft in those ballons all these years.:D
 
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