Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[DSL HED]

And they would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those medding WVU kids!

Would the 23o6 campaign be related to this? I still haven't had that done and am in no rush to get it done since it would involve a dealer visit. Maybe I will continue to wait although I read that the DSG shudder at low speeds is improved after that update.

Either way, VW(oA) seems to be in pretty big trouble. They really are their own worst enemy.

 

[road hog]

I wonder how this will effect my straight pipe, egr/dpf delete?

Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk

 

[ABS]

I mentioned in a PM that I am curious to see how deep this rabbit hole goes. However, at this point we have one-side of the story. Therefore, and although I am very concerned what this will do to the future of these awesome vehicles, I am anxious to hear details from VW, and will withhold judgement until then.

 

[dubStrom]

One other thing... we all just took a hit on the value of our TDIs.
How much? more than the reality of the consequences, I am sure.
But no doubt, we just lost $1000 trade-in value, and maybe something similar in sale by owner events.

 

[darrelld]

This is not good, I was trading my Last VW in the household off for a 2016 Volt, now a 2017 Volt since I live in Texas.

Hopefully residuals won't take too big a hit till then.

 

[bhtooefr]

Re: the dyno testing.

EPA does emissions compliance and efficiency ratings on a dyno. Regardless of the state inspection procedure, VWs had a switch that fooled the EPA test.

Maybe if there was a device detected plugged into the OBD2 port. When I was in Indiana, our "emissions" test consisted of plugging a computer into the OBD2 port. I assume it was checking for emissions related error codes. There were no tailpipe checks.

This wouldn't have affected a state inspection, this would've only affected EPA certification tests. Per the EPA letter:

Each VW vehicle identified by the table below has AECDs that were not described in the application for the COC that purportedly covers the vehicle. Specifically, VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module (ECM) of these vehicles that sensed when the vehicle was being tested for compliance with EPA emission standards. For ease of reference, the EPA is calling this the "switch." The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emissions testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA emission testing, the vehicles' ECM ran software which produced compliant emission results under an ECM calibration that VW referred to as the "dyno calibration" (referring to the equipment used in emissions testing, called a dynamometer). At all other times during normal vehicle operation, the "switch" was activated and the vehicle ECM software ran a separate "road calibration" which reduced the effectiveness of the emission control system (specifically the selective catalytic reduction or the lean NOx trap). As a result, emissions of NOx increased by a factor of 10 to 40 times above the EPA compliant levels, depending on type of drive cycle (e.g., city, highway).

 

[Got Haggis?]

The switch (ecm software) senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on varoius inputs including the position of the sterring wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operatoin, and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA emission testing, the vehicles' ECM ran software which produced compliant emission results under an ECM calibration that VW referred to as the "dyno calibration" (referring to the equipment used in emissions testing, called a dynamometer). At all other times during normal vehicle operation, the "switch" was activated and the vehicle ECM software ran a separate "raod calibration" which reduced the effectiveness of the emission control system (specifically the selective catalytic reduction or the lean NOx trap). As a result, emissions of NOx increased by a factor of 10 to 40 times above the EPA compliant levels, depending on the type of drive cycle (city, highway)

from the epa letter

 

[jhinsc]

I wonder how this will effect my straight pipe, egr/dpf delete?

Sent from my XT1094 using Tapatalk

No affect at all.....

 

[VeeDubTDI]

No politics!

Well I'm not embarrassing as VW , I'm embarrassing for this administration trying to increase cost to consumer!
I can't wait a day when Obama gone for the office and his stupid cabinet. These guys made more damage around the world than Bush with stupid wars. I'm sicking of him everyday more and more. EPA is Obama's instrument to kill private sector production.

This is your one and only warning. Anyone who attempts to turn this thread into a political debate will get banned for a month!

 

[learningneverends]

One other thing... we all just took a hit on the value of our TDIs.
How much? more than the reality of the consequences, I am sure.
But no doubt, we just lost $1000 trade-in value, and maybe something similar in sale by owner events.

Or its a great time to buy a used one.

 

[jhinsc]

read this story http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/b...00-vehicles-over-emissions-software.html?_r=0

I like this :

"Analysts said it was meant to send a clear message to automakers that they will be harshly treated for compromising federal rules."

They want to make it clear that they’re going to crack down on cheaters,” said Frank O’Donnell, president of the environmental advocacy group Clean Air Watch. “They’re cheating not only car buyers but the breathing public. They want to lay down the law, enforce the law, and show they’re not going to tolerate cheaters. The laws and regulation are only as good as the enforcement.”

Really, how about recreational marijuana, is Colorado state cheating on Federal regulation for using "drugs" ?
Double standards?
Oh, they care what we are breathing? Really, but don't care what our children is inhale drugs?

WOW, liberal bias!!!

I would think a tobacco smoking driver of a new vehicle emits more pollution than the vehicle itself. I lump marijuana and alcohol in same category - they both drugs and have similar effects.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Or its a great time to buy a used one.

Hold onto those VEs and PDs!

 

[jollyGreenGiant]

Two sides to this story I'm sure... EPA has had the biggest hard-on for keeping light duty diesels fleet percentages low. Nearly unattainable federal NOX limits on certification ( much more stringent than the EU ones for NOX ) being the biggest hurdle, which is why TDI's prior to 2006 were so freaking rare... VW couldn't sell them in any quantity per EPA regulations, fleet percentages and all that craziness. The long time club members and early TDI owners know this all too well.

Remember that EPA is a government agency that doesn't necessarily represent their constituents so much as cater to their buddies: domestic automakers, the oil/gas industry and other folks with big wallets. Punches have been thrown back and forth, this is EPA using the high-ground, "you cheated", argument to gain public backing amongst other gains.

Having said this. it wouldn't surprise me a bit if VW actually did somehow "cheat", as I'm sure every other manufacturer has done as well, this is BIG business people, when I think of the word corruption. This, even if true, pales in comparison to SO many in-our-face examples, big banks, big-pharma, Halliburton war machine, fracking, etc. The fact that EPA didn't find cheating on some domestic high-volume gas powered pile of bolts first just proves my point. You know where they want to throw their punches and it's not at their friends, they're getting pushed into the ring by whomever is funding the big fight. Folks who are simply pushing monopoly pieces around.

The TDI CR diesels are insanely clean, the folks who actually own and drive them can all nod their heads in agreement. If everyone drove them solely, I'm willing to bet, bad air days would drop like a rock across the board and "non-attainment" areas would dissolve. I don't have data to back that up, I speculate. But I DO know what I'm talking about and worked 10 years as a professional in the emissions testing industry.

Before everyone goes and badmouths VW and throws them under the bus, I think it's smart to look at both sides first and put yourself in both sets of shoes to best understand how these things happen the way they do. It's like prohibition, people are gonna drink, if the powers that be say no you can not, well, then folks find ways around that ridiculousness.

This particular punch in this long drawn out brawl isn't an efficient campaign to combat climate change and pollution in my personal opinion, TDI's are some of the best examples of vehicles reaching for the aggressive EPA mileage and CO2 targets looming.

IDK, just my $.02, carry on...

 

[aja8888]

Or its a great time to buy a used one.

If you are interested, I have just put my 2014 Passat SE TDI with 15K miles up for sale...make me an offer. BTW, it gets better MPG than the EPA ratings.

 

[Samcar222]

Well said jolly.

 

[mjLyco]

Personally, I'm disappointed. I have a 2010 Golf TDI that probably has diminished value and was waiting on an ordered 2016 Golf TDI that might be delayed. I want to know if either car will be Nerfed by the recall. Will the 2016 be slower? Worse MPG? Will emissions parts fail sooner? It makes me wonder if I should cancel my order and get a TSI or GTI.

The worst thing is the evil that was perpetrated. They deliberately cheated EPA rules to make a buck. Will there now be a stigma for driving a VW? Almost makes me want to go with a totally different car brand.

 

[okie123]

Sounds like they should have stuck with the 2.5 liter instead of a 2.0 liter.

 

[okie123]

Sounds like they should have stuck with the 2.5 liter instead of a 2.0 liter.

 

[ABS]

Just for fun, I am going to chat with a buddy and see if I can use his dyno for an afternoon. I am curious if we can replicate the results of this report using VCDS..? I'd be curious to see if we can find the "switch"...

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Personally, I'm disappointed. I have a 2010 Golf TDI that probably has diminished value and was waiting on an ordered 2016 Golf TDI that might be delayed. I want to know if either car will be Nerfed by the recall. Will the 2016 be slower? Worse MPG? Will emissions parts fail sooner? It makes me wonder if I should cancel my order and get a TSI or GTI.
The worst thing is the evil that was perpetrated. They deliberately cheated EPA rules to make a buck. Will there now be a stigma for driving a VW? Almost makes me want to go with a totally different car brand.

TDIs routinely exceed EPA fuel economy specifications... and I think we learned why today. I would expect future EPA numbers to be more indicative of real world numbers. There will be some penalty, but it won't be huge. For existing commonrail TDIs, they will likely be retuned to comply with emissions, which will result in fuel economy being reduced slightly to EPA numbers.

 

[Mike_04GolfTDI]

Not sure how this will affect Canada, but I'd say we won't be going near the dealer any time soon, thus rendering the warranty useless. Don't want a re-flash until it is clear what effect it will have.

This really sucks. Also I'll be keeping my 2004 for a good long time I guess! I was considering a 2016 SportWagen. (Well maybe in Canada nothing will change... I'm not hopeful of that).

 

[bhtooefr]

I would guess that a Malone Stage 0.5 would eventually come out for the 2015s to retune things for improved efficiency.

However, on a 2015, based on the EPA's comments, I'm thinking it's urea consumption that's affected, not fuel consumption.

 

[validius]

Personally, I'm disappointed. I have a 2010 Golf TDI that probably has diminished value and was waiting on an ordered 2016 Golf TDI that might be delayed. I want to know if either car will be Nerfed by the recall. Will the 2016 be slower? Worse MPG? Will emissions parts fail sooner? It makes me wonder if I should cancel my order and get a TSI or GTI.
The worst thing is the evil that was perpetrated. They deliberately cheated EPA rules to make a buck. Will there now be a stigma for driving a VW? Almost makes me want to go with a totally different car brand.

Oh get over yourself.

This 'evil' you speak of has been you enjoying better fuel economy while also producing fewer carbon and particulate emossions. Not to mention that the reduced amount of soot in your high pressure EGR certainly has helped you out in terms of engine durability.

VW broke the rules and naughty naughty but lets not go throwing concepts like 'evil' around.

 

[r11]

I smell copious amts of BS in here:

- why no response from VW ? Why not a joint stmt - like the recent admission by a well know US auto maker on ign key issue ? I betcha VW doesn't agree with EPA's findings and will fight them

- 40x levels of NoX over the allowed limits ? Really ? And it took EPA 6 years to catch it ?

- Outright accusation of willful & deliberate design to circumvent the emission control system! Will Germany extradite team of VW engineers to US, to face 100 years in jail ( they will certainly throw the book at them) ?

- SCR (Cat) needs to be at temp, for urea to work. Cold engine would be way out of spec till she warms up. May be they open the EGR all the way, to reduce the temp in the cylinders, till engine comes up to the temp and then SCR can do its job ?

- do we have a case of severe cat plugging/ poisoning ? In other words, emissions are fine with new cat, but quickly go downhill as catalyst looses efficiency (due to shifty US fuel, for example) ?

Something just don't feel right here...

I am sensing VW adding 100K more miles of SCR warranty.

Since they apparently CAN pass the EPA test, they can certainly do so when not on dyno, but in actual driving conditions. More EGR ? More urea ?

Diesels - due to higher compression ratio, run higher temps than gas engines - which is the main reason behind elevated NoX. With spark ignition - like in gasoline engines, they can afford to bring more exhaust back into the intake.

With diesel, that ability is limited. There's a reason Mazda tried the low compression diesel engines (BS about weight reduction I never bought. Don't think aluminum is less expensive compared to CI either).

 

[Still Krazy]

Ok, here's a question.

If I bought the car with the understanding that the mileage was estimated what it is, then the "update" would bring it lower, is that grounds to sue to allow a return/refund? I bought the vehicle with certain parameters in mind. The company would have effectively made fraudulent claims and received my business/money.

Any lawyers out there?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I smell copious amts of BS in here:

- why no response from VW ? Why not a joint stmt - like the recent admission by a well know US auto maker on ign key issue ? I betcha VW doesn't agree with EPA's findings and will fight them

- 40x levels of NoX over the allowed limits ? Really ? And it took EPA 6 years to catch it ?

- Outright accusation of willful & deliberate design to circumvent the emission control system! Will Germany extradite team of VW engineers to US, to face 100 years in jail ( they will certainly throw the book at them) ?

- SCR (Cat) needs to be at temp, for urea to work

- do we have a case of severe cat plugging/ poisoning ? In other words, emissions are fine with new cat, but quickly go downhill as catalyst looses efficiency (due to shifty US fuel, for example) ?

Several of these things are addressed in the EPA's document in the first post.

 

[aja8888]

I smell copious amts of BS in here:

- why no response from VW ? Why not a joint stmt - like the recent admission by a well know US auto maker on ign key issue ? I betcha VW doesn't agree with EPA's findings and will fight them

If you read the articles, VW has already admitted guilt in the software scheme. At this point, they have no challenge.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Ok, here's a question.
If I bought the car with the understanding that the mileage was estimated what it is, then the "update" would bring it lower, is that grounds to sue to allow a return/refund? I bought the vehicle with certain parameters in mind. The company would have effectively made fraudulent claims and received my business/money.
Any lawyers out there?

No because the mileage on TDIs is typically in excess of the stated mileage on the window sticker, likely due to this NOx noncompliance. Fixing the problem will result in advertised mileage. If the upcoming recall results in you getting substantially lower than the window sticker advertised mileage, you might have a case.

 

[J.R.]

Well given I was/am planning on purchasing a 2016/2017 GSW TDI... I'll be watching this with great interest.

 

[bhtooefr]

Ok, here's a question.
If I bought the car with the understanding that the mileage was estimated what it is, then the "update" would bring it lower, is that grounds to sue to allow a return/refund? I bought the vehicle with certain parameters in mind. The company would have effectively made fraudulent claims and received my business/money.
Any lawyers out there?

Not a lawyer, but these vehicles were designed to run the dyno map when on the EPA test cycle, which is where the fuel economy is tested.

Any reduced fuel economy from a compliant tune (that uses the dyno map on the road) will still meet the claimed fuel economy per the EPA, anything above that (that you may have bought the car based on) was not guaranteed.

Now, there may be a diminished value claim if the dyno map does get worse fuel economy, because the resale value is partially based on the real-world fuel economy, but I doubt that'd actually work.