Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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Willem_Dafoe

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Horn gave a massive clue at the hearing (to anyone who was listening carefully) as to what VWs general damage control strategy will be: give discretionary cash to the dealers and let them work it out on a case-by-case basis. The customers who make themselves the biggest headache for the dealers are the ones who will get the most consideration. IOW, you'll likely get some consideration/compensation, but you will have to beat it out of them.
This seems to be accurate, I wrote a 3 page letter to head office, and handed a copy to the dealership. They seemed to warm up to trading and paying the difference in value after that. They even considered a Golf R, but one was not available.
 

kapps

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Mr Horn was there doing exactly what VW and it's lawyers directed. They needed someone to take the shots who had absolutely no clue what was going on back in Germany. He could deny or make broad generalizations under oath because he wasn't in the chain of command who made the decision to cheat on emissions. It probably saved him his job. As a matter of fact, he'll probably get a nice big bonus and/or better job back in the fatherland once this all passes.

Could you imagine the director of engine development in Germany come over and say the same sort of thing under oath? No. The company knows what it's doing. Any big corporation would do the exact same thing. It's a game of making as much money as possible. And when something like this happens, that game changes to minimizing the amount of losses.

Me? I have 3 years left to pay off my '14. Even before the emissions catastrophe hit, I wasn't planning on keeping it much past that time. It's too boring for me and handles just adequately. Mileage is just about the only thing going for it (which is why I got the car in the first place).
 

MRO1791

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VW corporate management claims they knew nothing about emission defeat devices.

But they allowed the additional expense of a seemingly unnecessary and complex AdBlue SCR system on new diesels.

Someone with authority must have questioned those with knowledge concerning this drastic change in direction. Especially since the change would require maintenance refills and affect customer perceptions of the vehicle.

I hope VW management is not as naive as they appear to be.
BINGO! The cheat was to save $335 over the DEF/SCR system, the German press reported that already (that was circa 2007 when the 2009 CR was in design for the US market). Someone on the inside kept the pressure on to later spend the extra money to go with the more expensive DEF/SCR emissions.. No way this was a few "low level" individuals acting on this alone.

We also know how they came to use such a crappy HPFP, that saved more like $600/car over the more reliable CP3 / CP1 HPFPs.
 

tsingtao

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MAX ratings at what rpms??? That is not a guarantee. The engine cannot produce those numbers under all conditions, nor does it.
It is usually about 14 HP to maintain highway speeds.
actually, as I recall the RPM's are mentioned in the specifications part of the owner's manual. Hello I'm at work right now in a company vehicle I don't have access to it but if you're interested I'll get back to you later.
 

BenC-60

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This seems to be accurate, I wrote a 3 page letter to head office, and handed a copy to the dealership. They seemed to warm up to trading and paying the difference in value after that. They even considered a Golf R, but one was not available.
Might be time for me to get typing.
 

hybridkiller

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actually, as I recall the RPM's are mentioned in the specifications part of the owner's manual.
That's my recollection as well. In any case, full engine specs are listed on the website (obviously TDIs have been pulled at the moment, but when you click on full specs for the TSI you get the @RPM - I know I saw the same on the TDIs before they were pulled)
 

Rivergoer

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High mileage TDIs

By the time Gen I "fix" comes (late 2016 reported here) many 09's like mine will be approaching 200,000 miles. It's also been expressed here that it's likely VW will install/retrofit some kind of SCR solution requiring DEF.


Hard to comprehend why it would be worthwhile to expend so much time, energy and money on these high-mileage vehicles. Let alone the 'can of worms' that can inevitably result from tinkering with them when they're otherwise running fine.


Grandfathering certain older high-mileage vehicles would seem reasonable accompanied by an appropriate 'fine' or smog-credit equivalent paid to EPA by VW.


But then again..."We're from the Government and we're here to help you"...so reasonable is irrelevant.
 

Lucidexp

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Mr Horn was there doing exactly what VW and it's lawyers directed. They needed someone to take the shots who had absolutely no clue what was going on back in Germany. He could deny or make broad generalizations under oath because he wasn't in the chain of command who made the decision to cheat on emissions. It probably saved him his job. As a matter of fact, he'll probably get a nice big bonus and/or better job back in the fatherland once this all passes.

Could you imagine the director of engine development in Germany come over and say the same sort of thing under oath? No. The company knows what it's doing. Any big corporation would do the exact same thing. It's a game of making as much money as possible. And when something like this happens, that game changes to minimizing the amount of losses.

Me? I have 3 years left to pay off my '14. Even before the emissions catastrophe hit, I wasn't planning on keeping it much past that time. It's too boring for me and handles just adequately. Mileage is just about the only thing going for it (which is why I got the car in the first place).
Didnt the Nuremberg trials prove that ignorance isnt an excuse?
 

Wklink

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No, it proved that following orders wasn't an excuse.

I have no idea if the VWUSA director knew of this or not. I suspect he might have but who really knows. You have to have some politician in you to get to the higher levels in corporate America.
 

freudekraft

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Might be time for me to get typing.
I didn't type a thing. I just went in and politely articulated immense distress with spoken words. I got pre-scandal book value and took the $2k customer loyalty rebate and ran with it. That was strangely just at the threshold they needed to be to get me to stay with the marque.

Somewhere around page 300 of this thread there is an interview with a former vice-chair of GM who commented that diesel passenger cars are effectively being legislated out of existence in the US. Mention that, too.

My new car: '16 GTI with DSG and performance pack -- absolutely delighted with it (and I needed some consolation)!

I am a petrolhead again, and sadly, done with diesel permanently. I hope the VW group continues their push for hydrogen fuel cells and am looking forward to them.

I salute all of you, though. This thread has demonstrated that dieselheads are exceptionally intelligent, thoughtful car enthusiasts.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Gone...
Impossible - you don't give someone with an '09 a brand new car
you sorta have to if they bought a car from you that you misrepresented what you originally sold them.
You sorta don't.

You got 6 years out of an '09... plus sat at an average 12k miles per year, or 72k miles doing exactly what you bought it for. Sorry. They owe you a fix, plus perhaps some sum to compensate for any power/efficiency loss and added costs (AdBlue), or compensation at trade in for diminished resale value and perhaps some bonus to get you back into a VW. And on an '09 with 108k miles, diminished resale value won't amount to much. At best, 20% on approx. $5k, or roughly $1k. Plus maybe a $2k loyalty bonus and anything else you can negotiate from the dealer, so you're at best looking at $3k total above whatever you would have been able to negotiate.

And VW no doubt owes the government a big fine for having cheated and contributed to increased air pollution levels.

But they don't owe you a new car unless perhaps you bought the car the day before the scandal broke out (in some jurisdictions there are back-out clauses to sales contracts, for a short period of time after a purchase). Dream on.
 
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PlaneCrazy

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I didn't type a thing. I just went in and politely articulated immense distress with spoken words. I got pre-scandal book value and took the $2k customer loyalty rebate and ran with it. That was strangely just at the threshold they needed to be to get me to stay with the marque.

Somewhere around page 300 of this thread there is an interview with a former vice-chair of GM who commented that diesel passenger cars are effectively being legislated out of existence in the US. Mention that, too.

My new car: '16 GTI with DSG and performance pack -- absolutely delighted with it (and I needed some consolation)!

I am a petrolhead again, and sadly, done with diesel permanently. I hope the VW group continues their push for hydrogen fuel cells and am looking forward to them.

I salute all of you, though. This thread has demonstrated that dieselheads are exceptionally intelligent, thoughtful car enthusiasts.
Congrats on the new GTI. Had money not been an object, that's what I would have bought when I traded in my TDI some 3 weeks or so before the scandal broke out. But money was an object so it was a base (Trendline in Canada) Golf TSI, but like you I'm delighted with it. I still love VWs. The company, and the dealers, not so much.

I kind of concur on diesels. I think the value proposition just isn't there anymore. When I first started to look at trading last June, the dealer told me there was a $1500 incentive on TDIs, but NOT on TSIs. Reason was that the TSIs were flying out the door, but TDIs weren't because for most folks the slightly better fuel economy of the TSI didn't justify the $3k higher price, timing belt changes, AdBlue, and all that. My wife and I are no longer in a position that we do enough mileage to justify a TDI on the basis of cost savings and I think fewer and fewer people are. Clearly diesels were already on their downward trend then.

The 1.4 TSI that is now the base engine on the Jetta, is going to drive another nail into the TDI coffin. I predict this engine will find its way into the Beetle and Golf eventually. VW could easily offer a 1.4 TSI Bluemotion with extra fuel savings gimmicks like narrower LRR tires, more underbody cladding, reduced weight, start/stop, 7-speed DSG and fuel economy that pretty much matches a 2.0 TDI. And I bet the price premium could be kept to about $1-1.5k of a comparably equipped automatic Golf. Heck I'd even consider giving up a manual gearbox for a car like that...

I do still like the range advantage of my wife's TDI on long road trips, but that's a nice-to-have, not really any economic benefit.
 

verylongdrive

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BINGO! The cheat was to save $335 over the DEF/SCR system, the German press reported that already (that was circa 2007 when the 2009 CR was in design for the US market). Someone on the inside kept the pressure on to later spend the extra money to go with the more expensive DEF/SCR emissions.. No way this was a few "low level" individuals acting on this alone.

We also know how they came to use such a crappy HPFP, that saved more like $600/car over the more reliable CP3 / CP1 HPFPs.
I've seen numerous allusions in the German press to "100 Euros' and "a few 100 Euros". Besides the fact that they don't know much of anything from within VW (just speculation), and have no clue about the US-market models, I'd counter this with various non-overlapping >$1000 repairs that have at times been required on the SCR-equipped Passat NMS. Of course repairs cost more than the total original installation, but there's the $500 heater, the $300 NOx sensor, not counting the tank, the hoses, what else?
It's so bad they had to hide part of the cost in forcing you into an SE if you want the Passat TDI.
 

verylongdrive

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VW corporate management claims they knew nothing about emission defeat devices.

But they allowed the additional expense of a seemingly unnecessary and complex AdBlue SCR system on new diesels.

Someone with authority must have questioned those with knowledge concerning this drastic change in direction. Especially since the change would require maintenance refills and affect customer perceptions of the vehicle.

I hope VW management is not as naive as they appear to be.

While not necessarily the real reason for the "no VW-corporate knowledge" answer, it could well have been kept within the motor development division only. That that is so seems quite plausible (not admitting that you can't do your part while all other aspects of the design, cost reduction, etc. is going well), and even though the (now suspended) head of motor development is near the top of the company, he's indeed not "corporate".

The need for SCR would have been explained as needed for the future Euro 6 standard. (Just before the first Bluetec MBs came out here, it started being discussed as an optional for-your-green-conscience extra in Germany.)
 
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n1das

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I wonder if a shoe is going to drop on gas burners. Our government has a dream of butterfly powered mass transit . .
I hope so and I expect it will. The whole situation is a wakeup call for the auto industry and regulators. Emissions testing under real world driving conditions using PEMS will no doubt be used more in the future. Supposedly a lot of DI gassers are only marginally compliant in all emissions categories and I expect them to fail during PEMS testing. With affected TDIs, only NOx exceeded limits and emissions in all other categories were extremely low and that was noted in the studies. Aside from NOx being out of spec, affected TDIs are still very clean cars. The sky is not falling.

I actually am applauding the researchers in the ICCT and WVU studies who discovered the high NOx levels in their studies. IMHO, whether cheating is involved or not, emissions non-compliance under real world driving conditions will not be limited to VW and not limited to diesel. I say this is only the start of things to come as gassers eventually get PEMS tested. ICCT and WVU, please test some DI gassers using PEMS!
 

dhectorg

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That is exactly why we have trusted mechanics list.
I'm saddened my gov is trying to force me to have this done to my car. :(
I'm a bit confused as to why you're blaming "your gov" for VW's deliberate malfeasance. Did someone force VW to commit fraud and lie to the EPA?
 

dhectorg

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Has anyone tried the VW site and "chatted" with a VW representative about a buyback for your Gen 1 vehicle? I mean have you asked them to buy your automobile back? To see what they offer.
I spoke with a VW rep this morning and asked this exact question. I told him I no longer had confidence in VW and that I wanted out of my Golf TDI immediately. He put me on hold for a few minutes, as though he was actually trying to work something out, but then he returned and told me that I had to wait for VW's solution to be developed and that there "may be" a buyback at that time. So in other words, unless you sell you TDI privately (and good luck with that), you are stuck with it for a long time to come. I don't expect any action on gen 1 cars for probably close to a year.
 

bizzle

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As has been clearly pointed out, there are 3 classes of TDI that are affected. The ‘non-urea’ class, which makes up the majority of users, is clearly the most screwed. It has been pointed out numerous times that retaining the current levels of performance, drivability, etc. would require a very complex upgrade.

Why would VWofA do it? What would prevent them from offering a cheaper solution that only meets EPA and CARB requirements? Couple the ‘meets EPA and CARB requirements only’ solution with a token rebate toward a new VW and they’re done.

Think about it. Why would they want to go over and above what they are legally mandated to do? The extra money needed for the ‘right’ solution for existing customers could go a long way in wooing new customers.

So what if the ‘non-urea’ class becomes part of the numerous lawsuits clammering for class action status? It will be years before anyone sees a dime. In the meantime VWofA and VAG get to keep their cash for another day. And, most importantly, they have, quite nicely, distanced themselves from the scandal.
They don't have the luxury alienating hundreds of thousands of customers. One of VW's issues is low market penetration in the US with diesels comprising an even smaller market segment than they need to flourish here.

Given that it's taken them an enormous campaign and decades of groundwork to gain the few hundred thousand customers currently driving the gen1 CRs, they aren't going to simply walk away from their established base.
 

tdibigd

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I spoke with a VW rep this morning and asked this exact question. I told him I no longer had confidence in VW and that I wanted out of my Golf TDI immediately. He put me on hold for a few minutes, as though he was actually trying to work something out, but then he returned and told me that I had to wait for VW's solution to be developed and that there "may be" a buyback at that time. So in other words, unless you sell you TDI privately (and good luck with that), you are stuck with it for a long time to come. I don't expect any action on gen 1 cars for probably close to a year.
Just remember that you're talking to a call center worker, not someone who can make any meaningful decisions.
 

gcodori

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northern california (bay area)
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For those who desire a new car from VW because you feel lied to...

Mileage:
Other than the "clean/green" aspect of the car, VW did not lie to you about the EPA mileage. In fact, they over-delivered on the EPA figures. You got 50 instead of 42. They can drop your car down to the 42 MPG and you would not be able to complain about a loss in mileage. At 42 MPG this puts you in the econobox/hybrid category. Right where you should have been.

Durability
Now, you will have extra wear items added to your car or your wear items will wear faster (increased adblue use), so an extended warranty will be in order.

Cleanliness
What price will you put on the "clean" lie? VW will pay for the "dirtiness" of the car to the EPA, they don't owe that to you. Do you feel like you should be paid because your car polluted more than you realized? Admit it, before this happened, no one was even aware of it. How do you get compensated for something like this?

Performance
Some of the cars will take a performance hit. I can see VW sending some money our way to make up for the loss of power.

Will you get a new car? Not likely. Will VW work with you to get you out of a car that may need a costly replacement and into another VW with a reasonable trade? I can see that happen. I can see VW taking the current used VWs off the market so they won't need this work done (unless they are a year or two old at the most).

But don't get bent out of shape because you may get less mileage than you do now. How about a show of hands - how many of you want to pay back VW for all of the extra mileage you gained because VW cheated? Anyone?
 

bizzle

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By the time Gen I "fix" comes (late 2016 reported here) many 09's like mine will be approaching 200,000 miles. It's also been expressed here that it's likely VW will install/retrofit some kind of SCR solution requiring DEF.
Hard to comprehend why it would be worthwhile to expend so much time, energy and money on these high-mileage vehicles. Let alone the 'can of worms' that can inevitably result from tinkering with them when they're otherwise running fine.
Grandfathering certain older high-mileage vehicles would seem reasonable accompanied by an appropriate 'fine' or smog-credit equivalent paid to EPA by VW.
But then again..."We're from the Government and we're here to help you"...so reasonable is irrelevant.
Someone already mentioned earlier there seems to be a vocal group of TDI owners treating their diesels like gassers.

We have a few people trading them in after a couple years, talking about that being part of their long-term plan (to buy new TDIs every few years when they were at ~40k), and now you are classifying yours with 200k as "high mileage."

The fact of the matter is your diesel engine is just getting broken in. It has a long, long life ahead of it provided you do proper maintenance. My 2012 is already at 113K. My ALH is already at 300k. Neither one is a beater, neither one is even remotely close to being traded or sold.
 

1854sailor

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I spoke with a VW rep this morning and asked this exact question. I told him I no longer had confidence in VW and that I wanted out of my Golf TDI immediately. He put me on hold for a few minutes, as though he was actually trying to work something out, but then he returned and told me that I had to wait for VW's solution to be developed and that there "may be" a buyback at that time. So in other words, unless you sell you TDI privately (and good luck with that), you are stuck with it for a long time to come. I don't expect any action on gen 1 cars for probably close to a year.
I'll give you $1,000.00 for that POS '12 Golf… ;)
 

verylongdrive

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I actually am applauding the researchers in the ICCT and WVU studies who discovered the high NOx levels in their studies. IMHO, whether cheating is involved or not, emissions non-compliance under real world driving conditions will not be limited to VW and not limited to diesel. I say this is only the start of things to come as gassers eventually get PEMS tested. ICCT and WVU, please test some DI gassers using PEMS!
I'd like to know why VW didn't spend a little money in the last 18 months to test competitors' cars (and get that info ready for the press).
Perhaps they're as good as planning ahead as their managers are at speaking English.
 

roostre

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They actually almost got away with it.

They probably thought they were home free at the beginning of 2014 with their new 2015 diesels all using AdBlue SCR systems.

It is unlikely we will ever know the truth or even if what we are being told is true.
 
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dhectorg

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Don't let the screen door hit ya where the good Lord split ya....
:D
I've been here a while and not going anywhere. You however just showed up. Just stop worrying so much about how other members handle this. It's really none of your concern.
 

slimphatty

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I spoke with a VW rep this morning and asked this exact question. I told him I no longer had confidence in VW and that I wanted out of my Golf TDI immediately. He put me on hold for a few minutes, as though he was actually trying to work something out, but then he returned and told me that I had to wait for VW's solution to be developed and that there "may be" a buyback at that time. So in other words, unless you sell you TDI privately (and good luck with that), you are stuck with it for a long time to come. I don't expect any action on gen 1 cars for probably close to a year.
Someone sounds like a cry baby
 
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