Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[whitedog]

Your numbers for retrofit are way too high. Volkswagen doesn't pay their full retail price for parts and they certainly don't pay their own $100 per hour labor rate. Take your estimate and divide it by three, and you might be a bit closer.

How certain are you about VW not paying retail on parts and labor? I know from my time at Deere, they paid retail+ for parts and labor. But that's an entirely different culture than automotive.

 

[TDI smile]

You can say the same thing and find the same anecdotes in regards to every brand out there. Spare me the sales line. I'm sure you're very good at what you do, but you're not exactly unique with your sales pitch. Every other independent out there uses the same marketing schtick.

We have plenty of members here, that drive to St. L. just to have their car serviced by Oilhammer... and that for years.... He needs no more sales pitch from You.

 

[peterbilt1101]

Just spoke to my local VW dealer. First to the salesman...his response was that they are "buying back" the cars based on traditional resale value as if the recall hadn't occurred (aka, a trade in...not a traditional buy back). They're not allowed to sell the cars, but they are accepting them basically as a trade in. I asked him how he would go about assessing the car's value while pretending this hadn't happened and he didn't have a real good answer. Take all of that with a grain of salt, but nothing wowed me here.

Also spoke to the service manager about the recall. All he said was that something was going to happen after the first of the year. He had no idea if it was going to be a reflash of the ECM, addition of SCR, or anything at all. Just that something was going to happen in January. Nothing new here...just relaying what I found out to the masses....

 

[Grievous Angel]

Seems none of the manufacturers cars meet the standards. Did it really take this many years for people to come to the conclusions that cars do not perform the same in real world conditions as they do in test conditions?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/an...sions-tests-guardian-2015-10-09?siteid=yhoof2

I wonder if a shoe is going to drop on gas burners. Our government has a dream of butterfly powered mass transit . .

 

[meerschm]

I like the insights from mechanics who participate in this site. (oilhammer included)

they share honest, hard-won insights, gain some context from us mere owners and from other mechanics on the site.

like each of us, every person has a point of view and context for observations.

the dealer capability caution is worth noting ( I had the dealer put a set of tires on my car, and when the TPMS leaked a while later, and I let them deal with it, they gave the job to a kid who I watched read the TPMS seal package and figure out he had to dismount the tire to get at the part.)

They do have real cost constraints and will try to have the least-paid person (hopefully capable enough) do the work. independent shops will do the same thing to one degree or another.

as for me, with a 2009 that needs to pass emissions where I live, and a somewhat sooty tailpipe, I would be happy to sign up for a new exhaust with DEF. should get better mpg, and put a new exhaust on a car with over 150k on it.

I would, however, follow up on the details of the install myself. if I did not have some understanding about this car and access to a lift, I would take it to an independent mechanic to give the update a once over to look for missing parts, misrouted wires, rubbing plumbing and wires. and the like.



the engineering on the update is likely to be adequate.

 

[Galo]

Watching people ramble on about Volkswagen dealer service departments when they clearly know very little about how they operate is also quite entertaining. I know, as I worked there. And I earn a respectable living outside of them unscrewing the cars they constantly are messing up. I kept track one year, and I was nearly to 20 hacked timing belt jobs by Volkswagen dealers alone by the end of December.

My service horror stories:
40k mile service: fuel filter gasket installed wrong. 20 mins later on my way to work, almost crash because so much diesel is spewing out of the cannister that I slide the right front (massive understeer) taking a left at a traffic light.

80k mile service: same thing. Leak was smaller, found it when fuel started puddling in my driveway. Oil was more than a quart low.

Daughter's 2006 2.5 Jetta, water pump replacement: damaged the A/C compressor wiring during the water pump repair.

Wanted to charge me $970.00 for the intake manifold replacement (the flappers) when the car had 74k miles -well inside the Federal Emissions warranty coverage period

That last one did it. No more VW service for any of our Jettas.

 

[Shife]

I don't know this forum member but, to me, he sounds like a responsible mechanic who takes pride in his work, uses a torque wrench, and has seen and dislikes shoddy work. It begins with personal professional pride in whatever job you are doing. Like everyone else, I have seen the effects of poor workmanship in service visits. Cut him some slack.

At no point have I claimed he is irresponsible or commented negatively on his ability or workmanship. He is an independent VW shop who financially benefits from convincing people he can do a better job than the dealer. There isn't anything nefarious about this.

Just like dealers there are independent shops that are terrible and some that are fantastic. Pretending that the independent shops are infallible and that all dealers are terrible is just ridiculous.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

I know I'm not part of the family any more and I hope you guys don't mind me hanging around. I was part of it, and am interested in how this turns out. Maybe it's like watching a car crash--or hoping I made the right decision (ie, they offer an outstanding buyback program later).

I've had gaps in TDI ownership since '99 and have stuck around...

I tend not to have an emotional attachment to diesel in particular. As an aviation enthusiast, every aircraft is built to a mission and I feel the same for cars. When diesels made sense for me (heavy commuting), I bought a diesel. When they didn't (more trouble/cost than any benefit I could extract), I didn't. Mind you there are still two TDIs in the family but they're not registered to me, so I guess i can claim to no longer own a TDI though I'm still responsible for the upkeep of my wife's and son's.

When I traded in August a TDI with its price premium, heavier maintenance requirements and greater potential chance for fail no longer made sense for an 18k km a year (11.25k miles) retired guy. So I got a TSI which did fit my criteria: compact hatchback, good fuel economy for a gasser, fun-to-drive, manual gearbox, good fit-and-finish, etc.

Should TDIs remain available, and some day the tables are turned and I need to drive high miles again, I might consider a TDI, but those circumstances are less likely now (only one I can think of at my age is the need for regular trips to the city for medical treatments, a scenario I have so far thankfully been able to avoid!). My wife's car is used by us on long road trips and TDI does make some sense for that, if not from a cost POV, at least for the convenience of only having to fuel once every 1100 km or so.

 

[whitedog]

Watching people ramble on about Volkswagen dealer service departments when they clearly know very little about how they operate is also quite entertaining. I know, as I worked there. And I earn a respectable living outside of them unscrewing the cars they constantly are messing up. I kept track one year, and I was nearly to 20 hacked timing belt jobs by Volkswagen dealers alone by the end of December.
Don't compare Volkswagen dealers to GM dealers in this regard. Because there is a clear track of poor service many times over from Volkswagen. I've never run across any other brand as bad in my 20+ years in the auto service industry. Not even close.
If I had a Lexus, I would gladly have no problem dropping it off at the Lexus dealer I worked at and know that the car would be taken care of. Same for Mercedes-Benz. But the Volkswagen dealer I worked at would not dare lay a wrench on my cars. I'd break out in hives at the thought of it. The Audi dealers seem to have a better level of professionalism, at least around here.
And at any of the brands I worked for, recalls were never "good" for anyone. The labor times suck, ESPECIALLY at Volkswagen. At Lexus, we could at least make our time with campaign work. At Volkswagen you'd starve. They simply don't provide ample book time pay for that type of work. Which is why shortcuts happen, and why so many campaigns get messed up. EGR cooler recalls on the BEWs are pretty much always a mess, because they can't be bothered to put that support bracket back in place, and then the pipe cracks over and over again. Until someone like me comes along, recognizes the problem lies in a missing part, and corrects it.
I am crying a little inside for all my CBEA/CJAA customers when I think of having their cars touched by some of these clowns having what HAS to be a pretty massive amount of work involving the installation of SCR. This is not like changing a part, or adding gravel guards and exhaust tip extensions. This is HUGE. My only hope is that VAG/VoA realize that in order to not make this Fail Boat take on any more water, that they must take steps to be certain that the dealers and technicians know how and are paid properly for the task at hand. I believe most of the techs are not at fault here, it is the fault of the system in which they are forced to work. And asking someone to be paid for 5 hours on a job that takes 10 isn't going to cut it.

Brian, do you see VW having travelling techs coming around to shops to teach one or two techs how to do this mod once it comes out? To me, this sounds like a wise choice for VW.

With customer knowledge of this, it can give them a bit more assurance that their car won't get hacked. I remember once at Deere, they did this because of how extensive the modifications were. Or maybe they did the whole job, I don't remember well. But again, this is a different culture and there certainly weren't 500,000 653G feller-bunchers in the US to fix.

 

[gene r]

Feel like I'm looking in a mirror. People aren't just waking up because of diesel-gate. It's just the straw . . or maybe the light pole . .that broke the camel's back. Maybe it's like watching a car crash--.

It is like front row seats to a slow motion train crash.

 

[pknopp]

I wonder if a shoe is going to drop on gas burners. Our government has a dream of butterfly powered mass transit . .

There are pages after pages of babbling but this has the possibility of being real news. If they all fail it's going to give VW a partial out. "They were standards impossible for anyone to reach".

If this develops further, that is if it's true that no car meets the standard in real world driving, kiss your "buy back" ideas goodbye.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/an...sions-tests-guardian-2015-10-09?siteid=yhoof2

 

[Shife]

We have plenty of members here, that drive to St. L. just to have their car serviced by Oilhammer... and that for years.... He needs no more sales pitch from You.

That's great. I guess I don't understand why you're upset. Is it untrue that he has an unfavorable view of dealer service departments? Is it untrue that it benefits him to make the claim that he can perform better than they can?

What most certainly is not true, is that all factory service departments are crap. There are good ones and bad ones, just like independents.

 

[Jettawolfs98]

If you don't do the TB and it breaks, you could end up with a large engine-shaped boat anchor - and nobody's gonna cover that...

true.

 

[hybridkiller]

That said, I still think everyone is better off hanging on to their cars.

I think most people are freaking out about a loss of market value on their car. For a few it may be about being less green, or the unconscionable shame of continuing to drive a VW, but based on the tenor of discussion here I think for most it's simply about money (big shock there).

So here's the thing that doesn't make sense. Either there is a temporary drop in value, and this blows over - or these cars are somehow permanently scarred and values don't recover. Why would you not wait and see, since you can't get much worse off than "we don't really want your car at all right now"...?

My point is there is little potential downside to waiting it out, but if you panic sell/trade now you are locking in a loss that may be avoidable by just chilling for a few months.

It's what they used to call "closing your barn door after the horse already got away".

 

[turbobrick240]

At no point have I claimed he is irresponsible or commented negatively on his ability or workmanship. He is an independent VW shop who financially benefits from convincing people he can do a better job than the dealer. There isn't anything nefarious about this.

Just like dealers there are independent shops that are terrible and some that are fantastic. Pretending that the independent shops are infallible and that all dealers are terrible is just ridiculous.

I don't think he is trying to convince anybody. Any of the guru's listed on the trusted mechanics list here will do a far superior job servicing tdi's than 99% of dealer tech's. End of story.

 

[Dozenspeed]

Comment 1:

First free oil change at dealer with my car....

Tech 1: "Is this diesel?"

Tech 2: "I don't think so..."






Comment 2:

 

[UberVW_TDI]

More manufacturers failing real world testing....

http://m.news965.com/news/news/local/mercedes-benz-honda-mazda-and-mitsubishi-now-have-/nnycj/

Copy/Paste from article above

Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.
In more realistic on-road tests, some Honda models emitted six times the regulatory limit of NOx pollution while some unnamed 4x4 models had 20 times the NOx limit coming out of their exhaust pipes.
“The issue is a systemic one” across the industry, said Nick Molden, whose company Emissions Analytics tested the cars.
The Guardian revealed last week that diesel cars from Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep all pumped out significantly more NOx in more realistic driving conditions.
NOx pollution is at illegal levels in many parts of the UK and is believed to have caused many thousands of premature deaths and billions of pounds in health costs.
All the diesel cars passed the EU’s official lab-based regulatory test (called NEDC), but the test has failed to cut air pollution as governments intended because carmakers designed vehicles that perform better in the lab than on the road.
There is no evidence of illegal activity, such as the “defeat devices” used by Volkswagen.
The new data is from Emissions Analytics’ on-the-road testing programme, which is carefully controlled and closely matches the real-world test the European commission wants to introduce.
The company tested both Euro 6 models, the newest and strictest standard, and earlier Euro 5 models.
Data showed that: Mercedes-Benz’s diesel cars produced an average of 0.406g/km of NOx on the road, at least 2.2 times more than the official Euro 5 level and five times higher than the Euro 6 level.
A spokesman for Mercedes-Benz said: “Since real-world driving conditions do not generally reflect those in the laboratory, the consumption figures may differ from the standardised figures.”
- See more at: http://m.news965.com/news/news/loca...subishi-now-have-/nnycj/#sthash.WjuzhHCs.dpuf

 

[hybridkiller]

What most certainly is not true, is that all factory service departments are crap. There are good ones and bad ones, just like independents.

I have to agree with this - Lokey VW in Clearwater FL has IME an outstanding service department and staff.

 

[whitedog]

At no point have I claimed he is irresponsible or commented negatively on his ability or workmanship. He is an independent VW shop who financially benefits from convincing people he can do a better job than the dealer. There isn't anything nefarious about this.

Just like dealers there are independent shops that are terrible and some that are fantastic. Pretending that the independent shops are infallible and that all dealers are terrible is just ridiculous.

Actually, Brian doesn't promote the shop where he is employed. He is a self-avowed VW nut and he comes here, not to promote his bosses shop, but to help people get the most out their VW TDI experience.

I understand that you see it differently. It appears that you see him pointing out (AKA -bashing-) VW service departments as him saying, "Come to me". but I guarantee you that he doesn't need to advertise his bosses shop here to make a living. Have his activities here helped his pocketbook? Sure. Have his activities here helped many thousands of people with zero compensation for him? You can guess the answer to that one.

 

[dst5]

Volkswagen Scandal Continues To Unfold.

The AP (10/9) reports Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton announced on Thursday that the state has filed a lawsuit against Volkswagen for violating the state’s consumer protection laws and clean air standards. Texas is seeking restitution for defrauded consumers as well as civil penalties and an injunction against future violations. Paxton estimates that 32,000 vehicles in the state are affected by the scandal.

 

[rustycat]

Re read the full admission. Simply stated code to detect testing mode. Period. All the other different settings, performance, modes was added by the medua 'journalists' or interjected by others.

I do believe I heard him mention there might need to be another sensor with the reflash on Gen2, but I could have misheard or he could have misspoke.

 

[drshaws]

How about those of us who bought a *NEW* 2014 TDI in the past year. Last November the dealers were still clearing out the 2014's from the lots - that's when I got mine. But at the time, the dealers were eager to make deals, and there was no sign of the GSW yet.

That's me! We got our 2014 somewhat earlier in the cycle - April 14. But still. Not very happy.

 

[LRTDI]

There will be those who sell now and take a big hit. I feel especially sorry for the 09-14 owners who might feel they already drive a car with a $10k fuel pump ready to grenade on them anytime. Now they get hit by this.
I'll be waiting until Jan when my kid passes his driving test. Then and only then will I be close to pulling the trigger. For now 15/16 Tdi is off the table. I'm a wait a see guy on mpg effect that the changes will have. If the fix isn't proven by then or the MPG hit is too much, its Tsi.

 

[croppz]

Here's the thing. If I HAVE to get the retrofit and they manage to screw it up, that's fine. You guys act like they won't warranty the recall once it's completed.

Why? Because i'll just raise hell, they have to fix it anyway. You have no idea what some dealers will do just for a good review on the internet, that isn't a joke.

Now that's not to say I think dealer techs are bad. I have quite a few friends that are dealer techs and would not hesitate to take my car (not my TDI specifically since they are domestic guys) to them. One of them has been a master tech at Car max for at least 7 years. He built his rock crawling jeep essentially from scratch. Fortunately the dealer I've been to already for work on my TDI has been great. So we'll see what happens there.

 

[croppz]

How about those of us who bought a *NEW* 2014 TDI in the past year. Last November the dealers were still clearing out the 2014's from the lots - that's when I got mine. But at the time, the dealers were eager to make deals, and there was no sign of the GSW yet.

What is even funnier is that my wife had bought a 2015 a few months earlier. I was surprised by the fill port for SCR - I hadn't know that they had added this to this car. And the 2014 of course didn't have it. My wife still complains about having a smaller fuel tank . The old days of 800-mile tanks on the ALH are long gone.

I bought my 13 TDI 2 days before this whole thing hit the news. Am I upset? Eh not really. I bought the car not really knowing about the HPFP and intercooler problems. I'm honestly more worried about that than I am my cars resale value. But I also insisted on buying a low mileage TDI (25k when bought) and an extended plan just in case something happened. Yesterday I averaged 60.3 mpg on the way home from work. I'm still happy with the car lol.

 

[oilhammer]

Brian, do you see VW having travelling techs coming around to shops to teach one or two techs how to do this mod once it comes out? .l...

That is tough to say. When Volkswagen first came to this country, they actually sent out a FLEET of VW-livery panel vans to train the technicians on the cars BEFORE the sales was even set up. This was a huge change from the norm, especially for non-US models, at the time. But obviously somewhere between the 1950s and now there have been some major changes, and much of it started post-Nordhoff era, when the transition to Audi-derived models started and the original Volkswagen (air cooled) models were replaced. So while the learning curve from a 10-year veteran of Beetles, Fastbacks, and Transporters to a Golf (Rabbit here) and Passat (Dasher here) may have been more extreme that it is now, they still haven't in my opinion caught on to the fact that the service MUST be taken seriously.

Currently, the general rule is the regional training centers will take care of tech training. But VoA has historically had very little ability to corral the actual dealer management into making sure that any persons actually servicing the cars are indeed trained on the product. Some of them even have non-cert guys doing PDIs, which is specifically forbidden by Volkswagen, and is quite sad because the manufacturer actually pays for a genuine certified tech to do this job. So the result? New cars shipped without readiness codes set, DEF tanks not full, tires overinflated, etc. And the actual techs hate this (I know I did), and that is why so many of them leave. It is simply a toxic environment to avail yourself of good work. Other brands simply are not like this. I left primarily because of being sick and tired of having to "special order" torque-to-yield bolts that are SUPPOSED to be replaced whenever the mount is removed for a timing belt job, and being teased by the other lackey techs about it, with them saying "Oh, we never replace those" when right behind them almost every freakin' week a car got brought in on a hook with the engine hanging out of it BECAUSE THEY REUSED THESE BOLTS and blasted them on with an impact. And the management time and time again just stuck it to the customer. Is there any doubt as to the reason so many people who own these cars get pissed off?

 

[atif7x7]

I haven't seen this posted but here is the message that I received yesterday from VW Canada:

Dear Volkswagen Owner,

As an Owner of a Volkswagen TDI you are likely aware that on September 18 we learned our 2.0L TDI vehicles may not comply with government emissions standards. I regret to confirm that your vehicle is one of those affected. Note though, Environment Canada has verified that the safety of your vehicle is not impacted, only the emissions. You can absolutely continue to drive your car while we work to develop a remedy.

I offer you a personal and profound apology. You are a proud Volkswagen Owner I’m sure, a proud TDI Owner, and Volkswagen has violated your trust. You are fully right to be disappointed and frustrated. I pledge to do everything possible to make things right and to restore your trust in the Volkswagen brand.

This issue originates with the Volkswagen company and not with our dealers. We take full responsibility and are cooperating with all appropriate agencies to find answers and set solutions. I can also assure you that we are committed to making this right for you and are taking steps to prevent something like this from ever happening again.

We have set up a website dedicated to this situation: www.vwemissionsinfo.ca. We’ve also been dealing very closely with our dealers since this situation arose. Our main priority right now is to fix the problem at the core of this issue and work in partnership with our dealers to best serve our valued customers.

You do not need to take any action at this time. You will be contacted again as soon as we have more information to share. Again, Environment Canada has verified you can continue to drive your car – it is absolutely safe.

This issue is very upsetting and I am truly sorry for the current situation. Should you have any questions for me or our team you can reach our Customer Care Center at 1-800-822-8987. While it may take some time working with Canadian regulators and our parent company to identify a solution, we are committed to do everything in our means to fix the problem as quickly as possible.

Please know you are a deeply valued Volkswagen Owner. My team and I want to work to earn your continued trust.

Sincerely,

Maria Stenström
Maria Stenström
President & CEO

 

[newbeetleman]

That's great. I guess I don't understand why you're upset. Is it untrue that he has an unfavorable view of dealer service departments? Is it untrue that it benefits him to make the claim that he can perform better than they can?

What most certainly is not true, is that all factory service departments are crap. There are good ones and bad ones, just like independents.

Most of what you say is very true.. one HUGE difference is that he doesn't try to convince anyone they should go to him. What I have found is that it is said to "find trusted mechanic", whoever that may be.

Dealers are out to screw the public, that is a fact, that is how they make money. Whether it is selling cars (from the manufacturer of the cars they sell) that have parts that only last 2 years, or parts that are so crazy high priced, or labor rates that are astronomical.

They may kiss your arse but they are there to screw you. I have often wondered how anyone can be a car salesman because you have to lie all the time.

The TDI mechanics on here are out to make money, this is true, but they HAVE to treat you right, or they will be out of business...

Something tells me you are involved with dealers some how.

 

[VWmeow]

I'm really getting tired of VW fanboys telling me and other upset owners how to react. If you're OK with VW's fraud, that's wonderful and I'm thrilled for you, but I'm not OK with it, so leave me out of your misguided rants. It is absolutely no concern of yours what I do with my car, unless you want to buy it.

Don't let the screen door hit ya where the good Lord split ya....

 

[Lightflyer1]

I don't think he is trying to convince anybody. Any of the guru's listed on the trusted mechanics list here will do a far superior job servicing tdi's than 99% of dealer tech's. End of story.

Another unprovable statement. There have been issues with some on the trusted mechanics list. It isn't infallible either. When I point people to the list I usually tell them to search and check references of the mechanic first. I fortunately have a trusted mechanic I have been using for a decade (runonbeer). I trust his opinion, work and he is reasonable in price. I have had cars serviced by the dealership with no issues as well.