CommonRail
Active member
My engine NOx all the time.... It's a diesel, after all.That's NOx a nice thing to say........
Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations
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If I am not able to sell my Golf TDi in the mean time, I will not accept a retrofit, ever. They will have to buy my car back or I'll be lined up with everyone else who's suing them.
VLS_GUY
Veteran Member
In the House Energy Committee hearings with Michael Horn a miracle happened! True bipartisianship was on full display with all committee members beating on the pinata also known as Michael Horn. Michael was a good solder never wavering from the company line and members of the committee expressing their dismay at Michael "I am not an Engineer" Horn's lack of detail and credible answers to questions. Even the Representative from Tennessee was joining in.
Expect many return visits to the hill for this sacrificial lamb as he is an easy target that unites left and right a rare thing in Washington today.
Expect many return visits to the hill for this sacrificial lamb as he is an easy target that unites left and right a rare thing in Washington today.
The Mazda3 is exactly what I plan to get, if/when I sell my Golf. I will never buy another VW, ever. I test drove the 3sGT a couple days ago and loved it. It's plenty powerful and handles incredibly well, but the most impressive thing is the interior. Its feels like a luxury car inside. I think it's much nicer than the GTI, which I also tested, for comparison's sake. I hated the clutch in the GTI, way too light and high for my tatse. My TDi's feels much better.
Mark SF
Veteran Member
Per se
I know that engineering such a retrofit will take time, but VW also has an incentive to drag their feet. If it does come down to offering a buyback of gen 1 cars, as I suspect it will given the solution, the buyback amount will likely be based on whatever fair market value is at the time. So they will almost certainly take their time developing the fix for these cars in order to minimize the cost of a possible buyback.
In any case, it appears as though owners will be stuck in limbo for an extended period of time. I'm getting angrier by the second.
In any case, it appears as though owners will be stuck in limbo for an extended period of time. I'm getting angrier by the second.
VLS_GUY
Veteran Member
In the house hearing today Michael Horn stated that 430,000 of the half million cars in the US impacted by dieselgate will need more than a firmware flash. Type of hardware mods TBD, no plans for buy backs at this time as we are still studying the problem. This means that over 80% will need more than flash expect this to drag on for multiple years.
TomB
Veteran Member
Guy if you are in the industry you know you come up with the specs and pass them offshore for the black box development. I doubt more than one person worked on this part of the code. No per review was done, and even if reviewed no one is going to fail QAT and miss a deadline because of a developers different style/implementation to meet the requirement!!!
Doing development at home or for school projects or even small companies is dramatically different the large corporations. No one person knows ALL the code, usually just their functions or subroutines....
TomB
Veteran Member
MAX ratings at what rpms??? That is not a guarantee. The engine cannot produce those numbers under all conditions, nor does it.
It is usually about 14 HP to maintain highway speeds.
TomB
Veteran Member
Re read the full admission. Simply stated code to detect testing mode. Period. All the other different settings, performance, modes was added by the medua 'journalists' or interjected by others.
TomB
Veteran Member
You guys obviously are NOT in technology. My direct manager has not a clue about coding, and definitely NOONE above him understands any of it.
They do NOT get into this detail level. Coders often code independently, there is no peer review by others. The only thing tracked is does the code give the expected result per the testing script.
TomB
Veteran Member
I am happy to see the doomsdayers are being silenced with facts now.
My 2015 EA288 gets a simple software update, most likely before the end of the year.
The 2012 Passat again, most likely just a software patch with new fuel mappings with more SCR urea usage, but no real new hardware.
Sadly the non SCR, LNT crowd will need hardware.
From my understanding, the EA189 and EA288 blocks are the same, so that the head, valves, and other intake/exhaust components might be retrofitable to the EA189.... We shall see how VW decides to handle it.
If the old Jettas get the new EA288 top end that would be a technology score for you guys!!! So hold off the whining and suing you might get more HP, same torque, better performance, and more mpg to boot!!!
My 2015 EA288 gets a simple software update, most likely before the end of the year.
The 2012 Passat again, most likely just a software patch with new fuel mappings with more SCR urea usage, but no real new hardware.
Sadly the non SCR, LNT crowd will need hardware.
From my understanding, the EA189 and EA288 blocks are the same, so that the head, valves, and other intake/exhaust components might be retrofitable to the EA189.... We shall see how VW decides to handle it.
If the old Jettas get the new EA288 top end that would be a technology score for you guys!!! So hold off the whining and suing you might get more HP, same torque, better performance, and more mpg to boot!!!
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Understand what you are saying. However, I can almost guarantee you that they were told to make the engine work given a set spending cap. The project manager most likely turned a blind eye and said, "do what you have to do".
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A lot of people say that, but it's not true. I've been driving manuals exclusively for 30 years and when I got my TDi I stalled it quite a lot until I got the feel for it, especially when running the AC. TDis have some sort of hard shutoff when they drop below a certain engine speed. I never had an issue adapting to any of the many gas manuals I've owned.
TDIs are probably the least likely manuals to stall due to their torque. You don't even know how to feather a clutch to get them rolling. Go out and try it today, you probably have to really try to stall one if it's even possible without doing something wildly erratic.
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TomB
Veteran Member
Exactly! And they do NOT ask the details for deniability....
This is business as usual today, not just VW.
TomB
Veteran Member
Yep, beating ones head against a wall to avoid facing reality is so productive!!!
Yep, you show them how blue your face gets before you pass out. Chill guy. Stuff happens.
Things could be worse so save you strength for REAL life and death issues... You will need it all.
roostre
Veteran Member
Hard to imagine this, unless it was Bernie Madoff.
TomB
Veteran Member
Really, you do coding for a living? I do.... In large corporations you work on modules.
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roostre
Veteran Member
Or it may be past their bedtime.
spendinit
Member
Hi everyone, been here since 2004. Bought a 2004 Golf Tdi, (wish I still had it). Also bought the wife a 2006 Jetta Tdi, Loved it tooo. Then, you old timers will remember this, VW couldn't meet EPA restrictions for 2007- 2008. Didn't sell a new VW TDI in USA those 2 years.
From what I've read , 2007 Thats when Winterkorn came on board (Eh). Anyway, I traded my 04 Golf for a 2009 Jetta TDI Sportwagen. Still own it and love it. In 2010 traded the 2006 Jetta TDI for a 2011 Golf TDI. Still own it and really ,really love it.
What VW did sucks, in 2009 VW cheated and were able to meet the lazy EPA standard obd dyno test, and were able to meet the California strict emissions standard.VW was finally able to sell a Diesel in all 50 States in the USA Hooraah. Now I do not condone what VW did, however, Its human nature to do your best to pass a test anyway you can to move forward, (Right? you college grads and business folks know what I'm talkin about.) Tell me why the EPA couldn't warn all automobile manufacturers that they would take random sample cars, and actually drive them with pollution controls in real time tests. Was it cost prohibitive? I don't think so. I'm sure the EPA would have the the ability to charge each manufacturer for the test in order to pass and sell their cars in the USA. Why were these standard "easy to beat" tests allowed in the first place? The EPA had better step up and learn a lesson from the West Virginia crew on how to really test a vehicle, import and/or domestic.
My apologies if this point has already been covered. I've been reading as often as I can. And I love my Vdubs, I won't take the new fix if i don't have to, and I wouldn't sell my cars because they are, without a doubt ,Thee best cars available , for performance and mpgs at this moment in time. And if you own one you know what I mean. Cheers to Freds TDI, Thank You All
From what I've read , 2007 Thats when Winterkorn came on board (Eh). Anyway, I traded my 04 Golf for a 2009 Jetta TDI Sportwagen. Still own it and love it. In 2010 traded the 2006 Jetta TDI for a 2011 Golf TDI. Still own it and really ,really love it.
What VW did sucks, in 2009 VW cheated and were able to meet the lazy EPA standard obd dyno test, and were able to meet the California strict emissions standard.VW was finally able to sell a Diesel in all 50 States in the USA Hooraah. Now I do not condone what VW did, however, Its human nature to do your best to pass a test anyway you can to move forward, (Right? you college grads and business folks know what I'm talkin about.) Tell me why the EPA couldn't warn all automobile manufacturers that they would take random sample cars, and actually drive them with pollution controls in real time tests. Was it cost prohibitive? I don't think so. I'm sure the EPA would have the the ability to charge each manufacturer for the test in order to pass and sell their cars in the USA. Why were these standard "easy to beat" tests allowed in the first place? The EPA had better step up and learn a lesson from the West Virginia crew on how to really test a vehicle, import and/or domestic.
My apologies if this point has already been covered. I've been reading as often as I can. And I love my Vdubs, I won't take the new fix if i don't have to, and I wouldn't sell my cars because they are, without a doubt ,Thee best cars available , for performance and mpgs at this moment in time. And if you own one you know what I mean. Cheers to Freds TDI, Thank You All
I said something to this effect a few 1000 pages back in the thread
but here goes... First, you are right, I do love my Golf and it has treated me well, BUT throughout this disastrous scandal, I have come to hate VW more and more for allowing this to happen. I need to feel some sense of pride of ownership in what I drive and VW has made that impossible, at least for me. I don't want to support them and I don't want to drive their car. I realized that some people will call me "irrational" or "emotional", but screw them. It's my car, my prerogative, and my decision...and I've made it.Jordalenko
Member
If they want to do anything to my car they are going to have to buy it back.I know that engineering such a retrofit will take time, but VW also has an incentive to drag their feet. If it does come down to offering a buyback of gen 1 cars, as I suspect it will given the solution, the buyback amount will likely be based on whatever fair market value is at the time. So they will almost certainly take their time developing the fix for these cars in order to minimize the cost of a possible buyback.
In any case, it appears as though owners will be stuck in limbo for an extended period of time. I'm getting angrier by the second.
If I keep it I have to deal with this limbo unless I want to buy another VW in which case I would get the TDI premium $2000 added to the wholesale value of my car.
So that lone option is still profitting VW at my expense. If I put the situation another way, if I was in a TSI, or if I simply didnt want to buy a new VW, and I didnt want my new car affected by this issue going forward, I would be eating all of the depreciation to wash my hands of it. Purely on me. VW wins with a new car sale.
By this logic VW is skipping ahead to the position that this will all blow over and be forgotten in 6 months. 'Sell to us if you want or get raked on the open market. No rebate, no compensation for fraud. The hard way out is the only immediate solution on the table because 'this will all blow over'.
Maybe.
That in effect puts the entire weight of this on the customer and pits the dealership against the customer until that possible outcome (this blows over) occurs. Classy way to treat people who just sank $25,000 or more into your product.
VW is saying 'we have to pay to fix these cars' so we will make it right. That is our only obligation. Owners can sit tight for a year or two while we do that. Well I didnt intend to buy a car that was 'broken' and I dont like being on the hook while this plays out.
I'm really getting tired of VW fanboys telling me and other upset owners how to react. If you're OK with VW's fraud, that's wonderful and I'm thrilled for you, but I'm not OK with it, so leave me out of your misguided rants. It is absolutely no concern of yours what I do with my car, unless you want to buy it.
transmit
Active member
I think you are totally right, except for the part about dragging it out. The thing to consider about a retrofit is that the longer it takes to complete, the more likely customers will seek litigation damages. Most of the class action suits will determine damages based on the time that has elapsed since they bought the cars (for lower mileage, lost value, etc. multiplied by # of days) If this thing drags out longer, which it would with a retrofit, that means more litigation and higher damage payments. VW could buy back the Gen 1 cars right away (or offer trade ins for new ones) and then resell them in another country or take their time retrofitting them to resell them later here. Of course this is still speculation but I'm sure VW is considering all these options. At the end of the day, the sooner they can get this thing behind them the better, the worst thing for them is to drag it out for the next few years.
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croppz
Veteran Member
I don't think people are saying they are okay with it. I think they are just trying to express that running out and selling isn't a great idea right now because values are absolute crap. I'm not going to tell you what to do, we all make our own choices. I plan on waiting and seeing what happens. While i don't condone VWs actions, I personally am not going to go out and lose my ass on a car I literally bought 2 days before this mess. Could I push and get them to take my car back because of when I bought it? Probably, if I tried hard enough but most likely won't happen since car sales are final. I do expect VW to compensate owners financially as well as a nice ass warranty on the car post recall, providing you get it done.
transmit
Active member
I code for a living too and nearly all companies, and certainly all large corporations use version control for software development. It's easy to look at the version control history and see who committed which lines of code. This is standard in any software development environment.
croppz
Veteran Member
I can't imagine that something of this magnitude just happened to slip through the cracks. On the contrary though, It wouldn't surprise me if it did. I work for a certain blue hardware store, at their corporate test store. Therefore, we get a lot of VPs and higher up execs walking through there weekly. At the store level I've seen a lot of "just get it done I don't care or want to know how you do it". Now that doesn't mean much at the store level because nothing illegal is really happening. But I can see that attitude happening at the higher up level of VW. Kinda like higher ups just saying "make it happen" and that's it. When the employee comes back and says "we are good to go but...." boss says "i don't want to know" and passes it along.
We may never know exactly what happened with that whole thing or who knows what, but they are paying dearly for it now.
We may never know exactly what happened with that whole thing or who knows what, but they are paying dearly for it now.
Jimmy Coconuts
Veteran Member
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- 2009 JSW, 2010 Jetta, 2011 Q7 Prestige, 2012 A3 Premium, 2013 A3 Premium Plus, 2014 Beetle, 2015 Jetta
Your theory is this was the work of a lone computer programmer? Really? This one person performed the same functions across 3 generations of engines, and no one else in the company knew about it? What about the design of the physical emissions components? Did no one else in that company do any calculations? They also had warnings from Bosch to not use the software in production vehicles. They also had at least one internal whistle-blower in 2011. VW kept it quiet.
Sorry, but your theory is fantasy. Check out Rep. Chris Collins' comments. He was one of the only ones on the panel who saw through the BS.
This could only happen with a coordinated effort across multiple design groups, which included software, engine and emissions component design, all the while with accounting breathing down their necks to control costs. Mechanical engineers work in teams. Their work is back-checked multiple times at each design stage to catch errors, and to coordinate with other disciplines to make sure there are no conflicts.
spendinit
Member
Diesels vdubs are purchased at a premium as compared to their gas counterpart. Unless you purchased a diesel on or before before 2011 you didnt get a tax incentive. Thus your diesel will take thousands of miles or years (approximately 3.8 years depending on the diesel / gas cost per gallon) to truly save you money at the pump. I see alot of people here with relatively new diesels worrying about the resale value and talking about getting rid of their cars now. Worrying about how people perceive them driving a VW TDI. Look, you did nothing wrong, if you thought you could by a TDI and sell it in 2 years and be ahead, you didnt crunch the numbers. If your ashamed of it, park it and buy a 2006 or older tdi, drive it and you'll be hundreds ahead of gasers and hybrids. in my opinion many new TDI owners bought these cars thinking they were like gas cars and sell them every couple years. Diesels are for high mileage drivers and people who keep and take care of their cars for the long haul.
So your airbag won't kill you in a VW, Your ignition key lock won't lock your steering wheel and send you into a tree, and your gas pedal won't stick and kill you. And btw 450 thousand tdi's in the USA won't tip the scales on pollution in the USA.
So your airbag won't kill you in a VW, Your ignition key lock won't lock your steering wheel and send you into a tree, and your gas pedal won't stick and kill you. And btw 450 thousand tdi's in the USA won't tip the scales on pollution in the USA.
I never said I was going to give my car away. If I wanted to lose my a$$ the car would already be gone. I'm advertising it at a very reasonable price and if it sells at that price or close to it, great. If it doesn't, I guess I'll be forced to ride this disaster out. Either way, VW will never again get my business.
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