Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[aja8888]

Lastly, i stopped by my local dealer and was basically ridiculed when I said I had a TDI. Comments like "Well if it's running and the brakes work what are you worried about" and "Volcanos pollute more so you shouldn't have a problem", empathy s not a word they are familiar with.

You should have reminded them that they sold it to you and their Mother Ship built it.

 

[Philpug]

Did you want a hug?

Actually a cookie would have been nice. :roll eyes:

Their company is sitting in a congressional hearing, you would think they were smarter than that.

 

[pparks1]

I've not had a single person give me a second look.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Jeta Life]

Mr. Horn is a good choice. He's got a way about him. He looks like a comedian to me.

 

[hybridkiller]

Actually a cookie would have been nice.

Sorry, couldn't resist messin with ya. I do actually have a lot of sympathy for anyone who bought new in the last year or so, if that were me I'd be seriously hacked off.

 

[TDILeo]

The only way I would think VW would do this would be to take all our cars, give us loaners and have these retrofits done by specially trained techs at a designated location.
No way the VW dealers would agree to this type of job even if retrofits happen, they must be handled competently by a specialized trained staff which VW should train, hire and pay for. Dealers I'm sure want no part of this, would be a nightmare for them, they've already had a tough time.

Yeah, I wonder how much collective pressure VW dealers can bring to bear on VAG corporate. And does a hostile relationship exist between VAG and their dealer network? I certainly would resist a retrofit on my Golf by a disgruntled dealer tech.

 

[Zut Alors!]

Sorry, couldn't resist messin with ya. I do actually have a lot of sympathy for anyone who bought new in the last year or so, if that were me I'd be seriously hacked off.

I'm not hacked off at all. It sucks in a way I have to deal with a recall, but my GSW will most likely have no invasive work done on it.

Want to know who's hacked off? People who bought a used 2014 TDi in the past year. Congrats, your 2 year old car is going to have to be retrofitted with a system of unknown reliability when you could have paid a couple grand more for in a 2015 on a car that was actually designed for it.

 

[JBell]

Also I was able to get my car smogged in Nevada.

Good to know. I'm due no later than 12/1.

 

[Afterbang166]

When will tdi's be available

Does anyone know when TDI's will be for sale again in Canada? All this stuff that is happening with the cars doesn't bother me personally and I want to purchase a Passat TDI but volkswagen isn't allowed to sell them. When can I buy one?

 

[Jeta Life]

Yeah, I wonder how much collective pressure VW dealers can bring to bear on VAG corporate. And does a hostile relationship exist between VAG and their dealer network? I certainly would resist a retrofit on my Golf by a disgruntled dealer tech.

Exactly some of the mechanics VW dealers hire are hack jobs.

It's one thing if Germany sends some specialized staff who got trained either in Mexico or Canada and work for VW corporate, not local misfits who get drunk and want to take shortcuts on the job.

These techs have to be specially trained or it will be a bigger nightmare for VW.

 

[Matt025]

I'm a long time reader of this forum and this is my first ever post. I own a 2013 Jetta TDI Premium. Best car I've ever owned. Period. I'm a middle aged family guy who's owned almost every brand of car/truck out there and this is as good as it gets for a $25K car (driving experience, mileage, creature comforts (Fender Stereo, all four windows are one touch up/down, low end torque, etc). If you own one you know what I'm talking about. My wife loves the car too (she drives a Yukon XL for the kids). We've put 40K on it in 2 years.

In regards to a buyback:

I've seen a lot of posts stating "no buyback" because of Michael Horn's senate hearing testimony today regarding existing dealership inventory. There was even a thread on this site locked by an administrator after Horn made that statement. I took the time to watch the entire 2 hour hearing. It's available on youtube and I recommend anyone give it a serious listen before debating whether or not VW will initiate a buyback.

In context, Horn was specifically stating a buyback would not happen for dealership inventory. He was responding to a question from Tennessee senator Blackburn who asked the direct question "are you going to buy back the inventory that the dealers have?" Horn responded "No, our plan is not to buy back the inventory. Our plan is to fix the cars." (59:00 minute mark) In context, he was only speaking about dealership inventory.

However, further in the hearing (1:29:30 mark), Illinois senator Shakowsky asked "have you considered financial compensation, for example, allowing customers to actually return the car for what they paid for it?" Horn replied, "this is one of the areas we're looking into right now, in terms of how to compensate our customers, yes" She then asked, "Providing rebate for loss value of the car?" Horn responded, "sure". Senator Shakowsky goes on to ask a rather dumb (imo) question about dealers providing loaners to everyone while they wait for a fix. Horn stated a loaner program was definitely not being considered.

It's clear from Horn's testimony that VW is considering some type of buyback. What kind it will be is anyone's guess but I'm sure it'll be good enough to make everyone contemplate whether or not they want to take the offer. Toyota is still buying back 1995-2000 Tacomas with rusty frames for 1.5x book value and RAM is buying back 100k+ trucks. Why couldn't VW buy back 400K cars? They won't do it in every country but I would bet my house that the U.S. market is the first place they would initiate a buy back program and if they do it will be for non-SCR cars like mine. VW states it will take 1 to 2 years to retrofit these cars with SCR systems. They're not dumb. They know customers won't want to wait 2 years for a fix because they can't sell the car in the meantime without taking a significant hit in value. VW is much more likely to buy back the cars at a loss, fix them, and then resell them down the road when the EPA has approved of the fix. What's sad is I don't want to part with the car. I would like to wait for a retrofit and then get a lifetime warranty on the entire emissions system along with a few thousand $$ for diminished value. Will that happen? Who knows. I'm probably more likely to be driving a brand new Passatt or Golf this time next year while my beloved Jetta TDI sits in a parking lot somewhere waiting for it's urea tank and a new owner

Anyway, before anyone types more "there won't be a buyback" posts, please watch the hearing. It's obvious all options are on the table. Watch Horn's testimony.

 

[puntmeister]

Yeah, I wonder how much collective pressure VW dealers can bring to bear on VAG corporate. And does a hostile relationship exist between VAG and their dealer network? I certainly would resist a retrofit on my Golf by a disgruntled dealer tech.

Dealers don't make money by selling cars - they make money by servicing them.

Charge VAG $100/hour, while paying $25/hour to mechanic?

The dealers can't wait for the recall to start! They are salivating.

 

[hybridkiller]

Yeah, I wonder how much collective pressure VW dealers can bring to bear on VAG corporate. And does a hostile relationship exist between VAG and their dealer network? I certainly would resist a retrofit on my Golf by a disgruntled dealer tech.

I'm as cynical as the next guy, but my impression is that Horn was sincere when he said that his main concern was dealer profitability and customer relations in the US. Asked if he thought anyone complicit in this mess at VW corporate should be held criminally liable - without blinking or hesitating he said "yes sir". He sounded genuinely angry and embarrassed by the whole thing, and made no effort to shield the people in Wolfsburg.

If VWoA and their dealers are to get through this with the least possible amount of pain they have the right guy at the helm IMO.

 

[puntmeister]

Some posters have done the math - it seems pretty clear a fix will be cheaper than a buyback.

Whatever the outcome - buyback, fix, compensation for drop in performance/resale value - VW wins the longer it takes. So VW will drag it out for as long as they possibly can.

As others have also posted - VW's ultimate decision on how they handle the US cars will be highly dependent upon negotiations with the EPA.

1 Extreme: EPA insists the fix results in cars which meet regulatory norms during real-world testing. No fix can achieve this - buyback would be the only option.

Opposite extreme: EPA allows VW to purchase NOx credits, at such a low rate, its cheaper to just pay the fines, with no recall.

Reality will be somewhere between the two extremes.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I heard something different.... I heard him say for Gen 1 cars they are looking at two options.
1) Additional larger NOx catalyst same as their Germany strategy
2) SCR/Urea addition.
Explained at 36:50
Unless the larger/additional lean trap is significantly more expensive or they can't meet the MPG they will shoot for that first since it's much more simple than the Urea Kit..
Have to watch the German recall results.

I'm not really confident in the larger NOx trap's ability to meet US emissions. Germany is a bit more lax on NOx and their compliance in Europe is questionable anyway, cheats aside.

 

[Jeta Life]

Michael Horn did a great job. Matthias Muller looks like he's been through a war. Ferdinand Piech got back at Winterkorn, what a disgraceful way for such an important VW figure to go out. I don't think Winterkorn will ever be invited to the Porsche family barbecues any longer.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

So your car has this adblue stuff? How often do you have to refill, and are you ok with it on your car now that you have had it a while?

I have no problems with it. We top it off every 10,000 miles, but we suspect that interval will decrease once Volkswagen introduces their fix. That's fine, too... it isn't particularly difficult to do, and it isn't expensive.

There have been some hiccups with temperature sensors going out and other electrical components failing. The part is about $400 with a bit of labor. Not the end of the world for me.

 

[hybridkiller]

I'm not hacked off at all. It sucks in a way I have to deal with a recall, but my GSW will most likely have no invasive work done on it.
Want to know who's hacked off? People who bought a used 2014 TDi in the past year. Congrats, your 2 year old car is going to have to be retrofitted with a system of unknown reliability when you could have paid a couple grand more for in a 2015 on a car that was actually designed for it.

I just think it's a lot easier for someone like me to roll with this - nearly 4 years and 70K miles later I'm at roughly half of what I paid for the car in terms of market value so this just isn't that big of a deal to me - regardless of whether I decide to keep the car post-fix or not.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

How about we all send the TDI club a few $$ for allowing this thread to continue to provide a running summary of what's happening with "Dieselgate" and also providing answers to some less technical members questions on emissions and NOx.

Part of the donations could be spun out for a fresh 2.5 gallon jug of DEF to be presented to VeeDubTDI for his mod work on this thread (which is and continues to be a big accomplishment)!

Thanks for the kind words... all of the mods have been involved with this effort, but I have some sick fascination with this subject, so I've been working overtime.

For those of you interested in supporting the club, please purchase a forum subscription. Contributor and enthusiast levels get you admission into next year's TDIFest.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/payments.php

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I'd like to try and put some data on buyback vs recall. As was posted several pages back, let's assume it takes 8 hours to retrofit. 500,000 cars (overestimating) at 8 hours a piece is 4 million hours. Assume shop rate is $100/hour. That's $400 million in labor. The SCR add-on kit was said to be around $2500. I'd be wiling to be economy of scale brings that number way down. But let's assume the worst. $2500*500,000 cars is $1.25 billion. We're up to $1.65 billion to retrofit each and every car.

But wait, there's more... how much engineering does it take to come up with this kit if it hasn't already been developed and simply shelved due to VAG being idiots? Let's say you have your crack team of 20 engineers working to combat this problem. Burden rate is around $200 an hour for these upper level guys. Let's even double it for other assistants and techs. 40 people*$200*40 hours = $320,000 per week. 52 weeks in a year and it's up to $16.6 million... pocket change.

Some of these parts may be off the shelf items used in other cars but some like the DEF tank will require new tooling. A complex injection mold could run a cool $2 million. Let's say $10 million for all tooling.

Our total is now up to just shy of $2 billion.

Let's assume the average value for these TDI's is $14k. That's $7 billion that they would spend to buy them back. What I'm sure VW's accountants and lawyers have been chewing on this past week is the risk of spending that $2 billion and then every lawyer on earth trying to get a piece of them in class action lawsuits. Or just spending the $7 billion (or whatever it happens to be) and be done with it.

It's actually an interesting conundrum. Are you risk-averse enough to just spend the money or would you prefer to pay out possibly more over the course of several years?

Your numbers for retrofit are way too high. Volkswagen doesn't pay their full retail price for parts and they certainly don't pay their own $100 per hour labor rate. Take your estimate and divide it by three, and you might be a bit closer.

 

[dhectorg]

Do you really not understand the contrast between "rational reasons" and "purely emotional ones"? (verbatim quotes from my post)

Fear, based on nothing but rumor and wild speculation, would be an example of a purely emotional reason.

In any case you missed the point of the car/stock trading analogy when you started talking about appreciation - it wasn't about the thing you are trading, it was about your motivation for trading it - "don't panic" would be the common message here.

It doesn't strike me as being a particularly arcane concept, but you didn't (and still don't) seem to get it.

Do you really not understand that such things are subjective? I understand completely...that you just expect people to react the way YOU did. Frankly, THAT is more irrational than the actions of those you are bashing. Get over yourself.

 

[dhectorg]

A very good deal and good luck. I'll be interested in seeing if all the supporters of VW and the TDI's who said they'd jump on a well priced TDI actually buy yours.

I am waiting anxiously for offers...

 

[dhectorg]

He's right at KBB and Edmunds book value, so certainly a decent price with his aftermarket stuff, but it's not the kind of "steal" price that the "jumpers" are looking for.

I've invested a lot of sweat and cash into that car and it's practically like new. Anyone would be lucky to acquire such a fine specimen at that price. That said, I will always entertain reasonable offers, just don't insult me.

 

[hybridkiller]

I've invested a lot of sweat and cash into that car and it's practically like new. Anyone would be lucky to acquire such a fine specimen at that price. That said, I will always entertain reasonable offers, just don't insult me.

It sounds like you love the car (which I can appreciate), so, sincere question, why are you selling it? (you may have explained that about a hundred pages ago but I missed it)

 

[Vidgamer]

Mazdas are nice, my buddy has a mazdaspeed3 hatch and loves it. If I hadn't been focused on getting a nice diesel with great MPG I would have probably picked one up.
And then of course this happens 2 days after I buy.

I test drove a Mazda 3 many years ago (around 2005!), and it was fun to drive -- they got that part right -- but it was kinda cheap feeling on the interior. It was good bang-for-the-buck, but I want something a bit nicer all-around. The Golf is nice like that -- it has a nice interior and doesn't feel like corners were cut all over like an inexpensive economy car. Anyway, I haven't been back to look at Mazdas.

But, I guess if shopping for a Golf, it makes sense to shop the Mazda 3 too.

BTW, about the recent comment that the cars would never be able to meet "regulartory norms", why is that? Is Adblue still not a good enough solution?

I'm hoping for a fix that doesn't make the car un-fun. It sounds like Adblue would be OK, but they'd still probably de-tune the car; I get the impression that the worst of the polluting happens under heavy load or something.

 

[tdibigd]

KBB is a scam book created by a dealer for dealers.. So they are giving values to their own cars. That is a conflict of interest. it is set up to be in their favor. NADA in set up for finacial institutions, which is better for owners.

KBB values my car, trade-in, at 15k. Edmunds.com values my trade-in at 16,500 NADA values my car the same as Edmunds.

...and the real value at a given time is what someone will actually pay for it at that time, without regard to a book or website.

 

[czeetah]

Volkswagen, don't nox 'em til ya tries 'em

 

[VWmeow]

Any time I have ever sold a TDi or other specialty type niche car and the prospective buyer brings up KBB, I tell them to have Kelly go find them one for that price and buy it for them ..They laugh and then I usually show them the door....

KBB is a joke. Its only real purpose is for the banks to have a lending guideline.

people who love to quote KBB are not interested in your vehicle per say as much as they are in getting a steal.

 

[Galo]

Volkswagen, don't nox 'em til ya tries 'em

That's NOx a nice thing to say........

 

[puntmeister]

I test drove a Mazda 3 many years ago (around 2005!), and it was fun to drive -- they got that part right -- but it was kinda cheap feeling on the interior. It was good bang-for-the-buck, but I want something a bit nicer all-around. The Golf is nice like that -- it has a nice interior and doesn't feel like corners were cut all over like an inexpensive economy car. Anyway, I haven't been back to look at Mazdas.
But, I guess if shopping for a Golf, it makes sense to shop the Mazda 3 too.
BTW, about the recent comment that the cars would never be able to meet "regulartory norms", why is that? Is Adblue still not a good enough solution?
I'm hoping for a fix that doesn't make the car un-fun. It sounds like Adblue would be OK, but they'd still probably de-tune the car; I get the impression that the worst of the polluting happens under heavy load or something.

Your impression is correct: the worst of the polluting happens under heavy load.

FWIW - I think you are referring to my comment - it was just an extreme scenario - none of the diesels could pass the regulations, in real-world driving - but I doubt the EPA will be that strict.

I would guess adblue will satisfy the EPA. Which is not to say it will satisfy current owners...