Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[LRTDI]

Who remembers this Green Clean diesel advert?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml54UuAoLSo#t=51

Even Huffpost and Fox are on this....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/volkswagen-executives-prosecution_55fd9749e4b00310edf74f5d

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-violates-clean-air-standards/

 

[learningneverends]

So in a day since I read this forum there are about 25 more pages of responses! Its almost funny all the horse trader attitudes going on here. 'Is my car worthless?' 'Now my TDI is worth more because nobody can get one!' Its like watching people freak over the financial news day to day. Did anyone else buy this car because they like it and want to drive it for a long time? Don't get too caught up in the herd mentality. I drove my TDI around for a bit today. It was a little extra exciting feeling like I was somewhat lawless or something. Otherwise the same as 2 days ago before the sky fell.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

They are one and the same. Long term your TSI will cost you more to maintain than the equivalent TDI offering. Labour rate to do your CKRA chain and guides is double that of a CJAA timing belt & water pump for example.

The CKRA has a 130,000 mile timing belt.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

The EPA notice specifically states "10 to 40 times".
Some say they mean "10 to 40%".
But those are the only two official numbers we have.

My question is where are people getting the "40% reduction in fuel economy when they retune the ECU" figure?

 

[JM Popaleetus]

My question is where are people getting the "40% reduction in fuel economy when they retune the ECU" figure?

The game of telephone reading those initial figures?

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Fixed it for you. In case nobody noticed, these cars already use SCR/urea. . . it's not like turning it on from scratch, just an increase . . . otherwise, you would never need to refill the tank.

- Tim

No they don't. The '09 to '14 Golf, Beetle, Jetta and Golf/Jetta wagon do NOT use SCR, only '15 and up and all NMS Passat TDIs. At all. I suspect it will be a rather more complicated thing with the NOx traps on these cars, and short of retrofitting SCR which would be cost-prohibitive, the only solution I can see is a de-tune. Either less HP/torque or higher fuel consumption. Currently the cars can easily beat EPA on fuel consumption, so there is some wiggle room there; if all of a sudden they meet EPA instead of beat EPA, VW can claim they met their obligations in that respect. How much HP/torque would be affected remains to be seen. The cars could probably perform adequately with 20 less HP and lb-ft, but that would not be delivering on the promise and VW could find itself on the hook having to reimburse customers.

Well I got rid of my TDI 3 weeks ago but my wife still has hers ('13 Golf wagon with rock-solid reliability; I got ride of my '11 because it was a lemon).

I hear rumours that the next generation Civic will be pretty decent and a hatchback may finally be offered on these shores. I must say I'm seriously disappointed in VW over all this.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

My question is where are people getting the "40% reduction in fuel economy when they retune the ECU" figure?

I assumed that percentage was pulled from someone's orifice.

My $.02...I would expect a ~10% reduction. Why 10%? The EPA estimated highway fuel economy (which I'm assuming used the proper emissions settings) was 42 MPG ('13 Jetta with 6 speed). My all highway tanks are 47+ MPG. A 10% reduction would put my highway economy roughly where it probably should be.

 

[Aquaticmind]

Regarding NOx
Tier 2, bin 5 is no more than 43 mg/mile
The on-road NOx emissions went up to ~ 1500 +/- 300 mg/mile at +1 SD in the worse car tested by the WVU.
The EPA appears to have a working calculator.

NOx --> ozone, which becomes smog.
Smog is bad.

This part seems hard for people to understand when all they want to do is think the EPA is out to get them. I still love my TDI, want by car to have guts and support the EPA in holding VW's (as well as other manufactures) feet to the fire on this.

 

[no-blue-screen]

I floored it a couple times today. I'm waiting for the emissions police to show up and haul me off to jail.

 

[Aquaticmind]

rotarykid, I do agree the EPA is ignoring a whole category of unnecessary pollution in Light Trucks (intended for business) being sold to the general public as commuter vehcles. Considering how many of those make up our national fleet...

While they may be, show some data that says that these manufactures are really intentionally circumventing the current law.

 

[Aquaticmind]

I floored it a couple times today. I'm waiting for the emissions police to show up and haul me off to jail.

You will wait for a long long time... if the number of Dynomax diesels with large plumes of smoke around here are any indication of the enforcement pressure.

 

[Aquaticmind]

Be thankful TDI's put out NOx, it reduces Ozone (at least the types a diesel admits).

Care to explain further how NOx from a diesel is different that NOx from a non-diesel? It may be, but it would be new to me but I'm getting tired of conspiracy theories and EPA bashing.

 

[S2000_guy]

Incorrect. It is indeed 10x-40x (1000%-4000%) the allowable limit.

Tier II bin 5 NOx is <= 0.05 g/mile. VW has admitted to knowingly, fraudulently obtaining certification for vehicles that emit 0.50 - 2.0 g/mi. This fails to meet Euro 3 standard from 1992.

Let's keep in mind that we're getting our information from people (journalists) who are paid to sensationalize anything they can, spin it for the most dramatic headline they can get, for the longest time they can it. Unless something juicier comes along...

I read the ICCT report; I admit that I wasn't willing to follow their methodology, but I did find these things:

1. The 10-40x the allowable limit was for one pollutant (NOx), not all the pollutants tested. Some make it sound like the total pollution was 10-40 times.
2. The 10-40x readings were for very limited short times during a much longer test; the average value for the test was much lower. As I read it, the average still exceeded certification levels, but was nowhere near 40x the allowable average.
3. To quote from the report:
"Even during type-approval tests, emissions hit several peaks at given points of the driving cycle in which they can be several times above the emission limit. But this does not prevent their average emissions throughout the cycle from meeting the relevant emission limits. Likewise, it is acceptable for vehicles tested with PEMS to register points at which the emission limits are exceeded, but at the same time, their average emissions over long distances (i.e., distances comparably longer to those of type-approval cycles) should be kept under control"

 

[SageBrush]

This graph is from the WVU study. Hopefully it will set to rest the question of how many fold excess NOx can be emitted and a birther movement avoided.
Should it go into the the OP for the folks who will not read the study, but might stare at a picture for a second ?

 

[Cool Breeze]

This part seems hard for people to understand when all they want to do is think the EPA is out to get them. I still love my TDI, want by car to have guts and support the EPA in holding VW's (as well as other manufactures) feet to the fire on this.

It's not their fault. Ignorance is bliss after all.

 

[tyrntlzrdking]

Affected diesel models include

The original press release from the EPA says the 2012-2013 Passat is NOT affected.

"Affected diesel models include:
• Jetta (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Beetle (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Audi A3 (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Golf (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Passat (Model Years 2014-2015)"

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument

But page five of the EPA Notice of Violation sent to Volkswagen Group of America says the 2012-2013 Passat IS affected.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

Sure would be nice to know if my 2013 Passat is affected or not!!!

 

[Stealth TDI]

"My TDI is worthless..."

I don't get that mentality. You'll only "lose" money if you sell it NOW. Hang onto it and drive the wheels off. This is reminiscent of folks defaulting on their home loans when the housing market tanked. My home took a huge hit in value. But I didn't lose anything because I haven't sold it. I'm sure it has bounced back plenty since then. The same should be true of my TDI.

I plan to get a Malone tune. But, first, I'll accept VW's recall to be compliant on paper. We'll see if the MPGs suffer. Regardless of what the recall accomplishes, I'll wind up with a tune and whatever benefit it yields.

Scott

 

[no-blue-screen]

I read everything and I don't see where VWOA officially admitted anything. What I do see is the EPA alleging they admitted it when they contacted them. This is serious stuff with the DOJ involved now, a formal violation going out, and both sides going through legal.

Honestly I feel deceived by VW and probably will not purchase a VW again. Having said that I am not in a hurry to dump my TDI. Like others have said we will have to wait and see what happens.

 

[CordedTires]

I bought the car ('09 Jetta TDI, first one sold by the dealer) because of the mileage, the environmental claims, AND because it's fun to drive.

Now with 104K+ miles on it I feel really bad about the car especially since I've boasted to many about it. Embarrassed by the engineering lying (and I was an engineer for 30 years). Am really curious about what VW was actually doing.....wonder if we'll ever know the whole story.

Time to start looking for my next car, though I may not be buying it soon until the dust settles on value. Won't be a VW though. Darn, and I've had a long history with VW.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

The original press release from the EPA says the 2012-2013 Passat is NOT affected.

"Affected diesel models include:
• Jetta (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Beetle (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Audi A3 (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Golf (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
• Passat (Model Years 2014-2015)"

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument

But page five of the EPA Notice of Violation sent to Volkswagen Group of America says the 2012-2013 Passat IS affected.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

Sure would be nice to know if my 2013 Passat is affected or not!!!

All of them are affected. The press release missed the 2012 and 2013 for whatever reason.

Passat owners will notice that DEF consumption is approximately 1% to 1.5% of fuel consumption, while the industry standard for DEF consumption is more like 3% of fuel consumption. Now I understand why.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Quoting from the NY Times article:
"During normal driving situations, the controls are turned off, allowing the cars to spew as much as 40 times as much pollution as allowed under the Clean Air Act, the E.P.A. said.
“We expected better from Volkswagen,” said Cynthia Giles, the E.P.A.’s assistant administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance. She called the automaker’s actions “a threat to public health.”
I would expect better from the EPA.
1) The alleged increase in nitrogen oxides is 40% greater than the tier 2 bin 5 limit -- not 40 times greater.
and
2) Nitrogen oxides are not a threat to public health, as they are not a pollutant. They may be a greenhouse gases, but lab rats exposed to 16 hours a day of differing levels of NOx lived long healthy lives, with no discernible differences from the control group when they were dissected.
Additionally, this is hardly news when there have been many reports from Europe that diesel cars in the real world emit more NOx than in the certification tests.

Please get the quote correct. That was from the NY Times article, not me. I posted some of the article and gave the link.

 

[phatz314]

I read everything and I don't see where VWOA officially admitted anything. What I do see is the EPA alleging they admitted it when they contacted them.

VW has admitted it.

See this letter from CARB. It also confirms that the recent recall was a halfassed attempt to get in compliance.

The relevant paragraph is the last paragraph on page 2, going on to page 3.

Unless you seriously think the EPA is lying about an easily verifiable thing that VW said.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.htm

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

I bought the car ('09 Jetta TDI, first one sold by the dealer) because of the mileage, the environmental claims, AND because it's fun to drive.

Now with 104K+ miles on it I feel really bad about the car especially since I've boasted to many about it. Embarrassed by the engineering lying (and I was an engineer for 30 years). Am really curious about what VW was actually doing.....wonder if we'll ever know the whole story.

Time to start looking for my next car, though I may not be buying it soon until the dust settles on value. Won't be a VW though. Darn, and I've had a long history with VW.

Yup. I'd be lying if I said that didn't occur to me. My GF was the one that pointed this recall out to me. She said something to the effect of "huh...I guess that's why your fuel economy is so great."

 

[Stealth TDI]

I boycotted Exxon for years over their oil spill. My ship was diverted and extended its deployment to help clean it up. Eventually, I starting buying Exxon again if it suited my needs. VW is the same. Sure, we can be pissed at them. But, if they're giving us what we want and no one else is, eventually people with either reprioritize what they really want or they'll compromise a principle and buy VW again.

VWOA is crap in my opinion. The VW product is good overall, but God help you if you have a problem! Here's the real reason I still buy VW: THIS COMMUNITY. As a whole, TDIClub will find a way to make lemonade out of this.

 

[NYC-TDI]

Look, I like VWs too. I gave them the benefit of the doubt with the HPFP thing. But this is an utter debacle. And to all the people rationalizing this, defending a corporation who lied to you, you need to ask yourselves why you like VW as a brand in the first place. I personally had higher expectations.

Can't understand the rationale of people defending VW in this. They lied to YOU. This is most definitely going to affect the value and performance of your car and yet you are taking their side in this. You have cast yourself in the role of the battered wife, still believing that he really loves you and he's really going to change. I know how that story ends.

 

[SageBrush]

I gather that VW admitted to having different control and emissions programs running depending on whether the car was on a dyno or not -- after first trying to bamboozle the EPA with BS. They can always try to argue at a later date that their actions were legal and in compliance.

Good luck with that.

 

[akjdouglass]

I'm getting tired of conspiracy theories and EPA bashing.

Will you please go outside and make sure your car isn't actually a Prius?

 

[no-blue-screen]

VW has admitted it.

See this letter from CARB. It also confirms that the recent recall was a halfassed attempt to get in compliance.

The relevant paragraph is the last paragraph on page 2, going on to page 3.

Unless you seriously think the EPA is lying about an easily verifiable thing that VW said.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.htm

Is it verified? To me it looks like that's the claim but its important to remember that VW hasn't publicly admitted to the defeat device.

 

[Tdiforme2]

People get so bent out of shape over this, funny! Compared to the emissions most other vehicles have in the past and many presently around the world. These are much better even if not as good as advertised, you can chose to get the recall done "flash" or not. At least it may help with future warranty issue. I bought mine to keep some people employed in their country south here.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

 

[mk3]

Will you please go outside and make sure your car isn't actually a Prius?

I've got one of each (well, my VW is a 2003 ALH so not affect by this situation). I don't view the Prius as a political statement, nor endorsement of the EPA. It is just a car that suits my needs really well.
Neither public nor private organizations are perfect. In this single case the EPA is quite a bit more perfect than VW.