Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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Keith63

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The Wednesday (October 07, 2015) VW announcement will only address the possible ECM "Fix" for those vehicle on European soil, not those vehicles being driven in the United States. According the statistics, the longer they wait for a US fix, the more US citizens will die due to VW.
 

SageBrush

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For the sake of our popcorn consumption, this may provide more entertainment than we have heretofore dreamed. I wonder how many vehicles, quite apart from VW (or any other brand of diesel) will flunk this thing. AFAIK semi trucks are now the only vehicles required to do on-road testing. I cannot imagine that this will not turn into a giant circus. These new tests, if enforced, may bring new car sales to a virtual halt and force recalls on uncountable millions more vehicles worldwide.
Well, I can dream, can't I?
At least for now I think the new on-road testing is limited to diesel cars.

I can well imagine political pressure on the EPA to test gassers also, in "the interests of fairness," etc, but that will be later.
 

dslman

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I don't really understand the point of comparing a current TDI to a 20 year old pickup truck (or a boat, or a train, or any of those other things). There are comparisons in the first post of this thread if you haven't seen them yet.
I would hazard a guess that your 1995 Cummins emits approximately the same amount of NOx per mile as a current TDI (possible more). That doesn't bode well for the TDI, considering we're talking about 20 years of technology and regulation advances.
I asked because I really want to know. They say these cheat cars in question are polluting up to 38 times more pollution than allowed by EPA MAX Limit for NOx emissions required for 2008 and on.
Websites are making this seem like the TDI Is polluting 40 times more than all cars and trucks on the road right now.
I really would like to see how 40 times more pollution spewing TDI compares to others, not just guesses.

I did see the graph at the beginning.

I read somewhere in some forum somewhere that a VW TDIs with the defeat software in defeat mode are spewing out 10 times the amount of NOx as any GAS car or truck built since 1979.

I would like to know if this is true.

Also, I've heard from some people saying VW has killed dozens if not hundreds of people because their defeat devices have spewed out so much

NOx over the past 5 years etc.
I originally thought it was a drop in the bucket compared to the REAL OVERALL SOURCES of NOx Pollution, but websites are making it sound like 4000% additional NOx Pollution has killed people and it all because of VW.

I'm driving the RAM a lot more than the TDI Lately. I'm just curious that I'm polluting the air the same or less than this truck?

Yet another person on another forum told me my Filthy 2012 TDI is spewing out more pollution than is 1982 Chevy C10 truck. Is this true?
 

millerman61

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I keep seeing people asking about the EA288 engine but doesn't the 2015 Jetta have the EA engine and it is listed in the trouble list with emissions and also has the ad blue system. So obviously the new engine and ad blue is not a fix.

EA288 is not the engine they are talking about it is the EA189.
 

ZeroG

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Understanding the HOV thing, but can you get more specific on why you believe EV's are "rolling defeat devices"? Maybe a link to the relevant CARB, or "National Lab" study? It will be more than a couple times, that these 450+ pages get into it.
And here are the California ARB carbon intensities values:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/121409lcfs_lutables.pdf

Lots of good numbers to geek out on the state's site... and it has convinced me I should get a herd of dairy cows to start powering my (hypothetical) CNG vehicle.
 

learningneverends

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I am glad I just renewed my registration for another 2 years. If I were not allowed to do so I would be very annoyed at VW as well as the government that gave me a $1200 tax credit to buy what the president described as 'clean diesel' in several speech's.
 

Mark SF

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Hi XJTdi,

I live in Cali as well, but have not received notification from the State requiring the 2306 update. Could you tell me, please, when you received that letter? With your DMV renewal form? By separate cover some time before or after you renewed your registration?

Thank you.:eek:
The letter is sent to you by VW. Are your contact details up to date?
 

stv

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Weed, CA
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2013 Jetta Sportwagon
Hot of the Wire.....We ARE SCREWED! (Revised):

I was asked to elaborate, so here it goes. The following is not hearsay nor is it based on rumors/myths/things of the past/or those things that go bump in the night. The facts are as follows acknowledged on the AP wire since October 01, 2015 in relation to the "Cheat" fix.
*VW has acknowledged that a ECM fix will result in undoing the "Fix" and lowering emissions in the vehicles in Europe, but not the United States.
*VW has acknowledged that although they has set aside funds for possible "Buybacks" the new CEO has stated that it is not in the best interest to do so.
*The EPA has stated that statistically, VW emissions have killed (94) individuals in the United States since 2007.
*VW was asked if replacing the engine in the affected vehicles would be reasonable, again the new CEO stated, "No."
*Several States including my own are indicating that the affected vehicles will not be allowed to be registered by their owners.
*The latest is that VW may not have a solution for the affected vehicles in the United States until sometime middle of next year.

I could go on, but probably someone, somewhere has touched on a lot of these issues somewhere in the 460 pages of this thread. I absolutely love my Jetta TDI Premium, but I purchased this vehicle not because of its features or looks, but simply because I knew that a diesel lasts and its hard to kill it and that the MPG was out the roof. Anything they do to fix it will most certainly drop the MPG and its value.

The thought of a fix that would deplete my MPG's sickens me.
This is a fantastic summary of the situation but some of the info you present is new to me, even though I've scanned the news daily. I'm particularly interested in the statements by the new VW CEO about fixes such as buybacks and engine replacements not being "in the best interest." VW has it's marketing campaign saying they will do everything it takes to make this right, and their lobbyists are no doubt working over Washington and the states. It may be important that TDI owners speak up and make sure decision makers are aware of the "fine print" limitations VW is placing on the "viable" options to resolve this matter. I am preparing to do some writing/calling myself soon. If you can share links to the AP article where VW backs down form the buy back and new engine ideas, that would be helpful.

BTW, here in California we had an emissions related recall already, it was in the spring. It was an ecm reflash and it reduced emissions but it wasn't enough to meet compliance, per CARB. The reflash reduced my average mpg (as measured at the pump, not the onboard computer) by 4.5mpg, down to about 43.5 now (I'm all highway driving). If VW reduces the fuel economy more, it will put the car under-performing per the EPA Stated MPG and I believe it will make VW liable for some kind of compensation to owners.
 

Busydiver

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Very good question! I suspect that VW was under pressure to make the DEF fills last an entire oil change interval. Some quick and dirty math shows that at the correct dosing level, the fill interval will be between 5,000 and 8,000 miles, which probably didn't satisfy someone at VW, hence why the Passats cheat even though they have DEF.

That is correct...I had read the technical staff at VW wanted to stretch the adblue to 10K so it matched with a customer's service visit and make it easy...I guess they figured adding the Adblue was a nightmare of normal maintenance. But then again I never do a 10K mile oil interval change so adding every 5K for me on adblue would have been just fine.
 

stv

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Weed, CA
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2013 Jetta Sportwagon
If the EPA believed that, they wouldn't have said our cars were safe to drive.
An unwritten rule in government is not to incite panic and that's why EPA and CARB are saying that. If VW doesn't bring the vehicles into compliance, the agencies will eventually say the vehicles are a hazard to public health.
 

pfennig

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2014 Jetta SportWagen TDI w/ Sunroof
Fuel quality can affect soot production. Soot gets introduced into the intake via the EGR. Better fuel = less soot = less EGR and intake fouling.
This is one of the reasons I'm still following this thread periodically -- like the rest of the forums, there's a ton to learn. I had no idea what EGR was before, this prompted me to look it up. It was quite counterintuitive to me at first why introducing very hot exhaust gasses to the intake would lower temperatures (it's because the exhaust gas has almost no oxygen). The more you know.....

Maybe the gas for the EGR should be sourced from after the DPF so that there's less soot going back to the intake manifold? I bet someone patented that already.....

Sorry, that was completely off topic for this thread probably, but I wouldn't be the 132nd person to do that...
 

opelgt21

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Sounds like the new VW plan is to punt. Hope the EPA keeps the 2016's in port until they agree on a fix.
 
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n1das

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For the sake of our popcorn consumption, this may provide more entertainment than we have heretofore dreamed. I wonder how many vehicles, quite apart from VW (or any other brand of diesel) will flunk this thing. AFAIK semi trucks are now the only vehicles required to do on-road testing. I cannot imagine that this will not turn into a giant circus. These new tests, if enforced, may bring new car sales to a virtual halt and force recalls on uncountable millions more vehicles worldwide.
Well, I can dream, can't I?
What Rico567 said.

The focus is on diesel right now and rightfully so due to what VW did. What VW did was unethical and wrong on so many levels it's not funny. I say there should be criminal charges brought for those individuals responsible for it.

As a diesel owner for the past 13.5 years and who logs around 1k miles/week, the news came as a shock to me too. However, it absolutely will not sway me from continuing to own and drive DIESEL vehicles. Absolutely no more gassers for me ever again if I can help it, including hybrids. My decision to "graduate" to diesel from gasoline was based on RESEARCH and not on any marketing hype from a car manufacturer. After logging 3/4 of a million miles in diesel vehicles, I have not regretted that decision one bit. I'm also way too addicted to the torque and efficiency and longevity of diesel to ever WANT to go back to gasoline again. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too. :)

Check out the links in my sig below for information about diesel emissions, efficiency, and performance. (Thanks wxman! :cool:) Aside from NOx emissions from affected TDIs being out of spec, they still are d@mn clean cars and cleaner than 95% of all cars on the road. I've said it before and I'll say it again....the sky is not falling. It's important to keep things in perspective.

I have mentioned this in earlier posts where I think this is only the start of things to come as gassers get tested under real world driving conditions using PEMS. I expect many DI gassers to fail since a lot of them are only marginally under the limits in all 5 categories of regulated emissions, and this is while on the dyno in the test cycle. PEMS testing may yield different results. IMHO, whether cheating is involved or not, non-compliance under real world driving conditions will not be limited to VW and not limited to diesel cars.

I need to go fix another batch of popcorn. :)
 
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Booth44

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2013 Passat SEL
I'm driving the RAM a lot more than the TDI Lately. I'm just curious that I'm polluting the air the same or less than this truck?
Yet another person on another forum told me my Filthy 2012 TDI is spewing out more pollution than is 1982 Chevy C10 truck. Is this true?
Well, it's almost certainly spewing out more NOx than the '82 Chevy. That just comes with the territory for the smaller, more fuel-efficient engines. So you're contributing more to smog (especially if you're doing a lot of city driving) with the TDI, but you're spewing more of every other type of pollutant with the Chevy. Obviously, your carbon footprint is a heck of a lot smaller with the TDI, so you can legitimately say you're helping the cause of preventing global warming.

So....pick your poison.
 

JBell

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Funny, I just received my registration renewal notification. It says "smog test required". Kind of ironic that I'll have to go through the motions.
 

n1das

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Well, it's almost certainly spewing out more NOx than the '82 Chevy. That just comes with the territory for the smaller, more fuel-efficient engines. So you're contributing more to smog (especially if you're doing a lot of city driving) with the TDI, but you're spewing more of every other type of pollutant with the Chevy. Obviously, your carbon footprint is a heck of a lot smaller with the TDI, so you can legitimately say you're helping the cause of preventing global warming.

So....pick your poison.
All of the other pollutants from the Chevy also contribute to smog. NOx is not the only smog contributor. Other ozone precursors also need to be present. NOx all by itself isn't necessarily bad and you can't see it or smell it. Check out the emissions links in my sig below for more information and to help see the big picture when it comes to emissions.

Lets see....482k (or was it 488k?) affected TDIs in the USA. It's a small percentage of all cars in the USA. OTOH, how many gassers are there that may be polluting more than TDIs in all 5 emissions categories? :confused:

I agree, it comes down to picking your poison. Although it may seem counter-intuitive among people who think "diesel is dirty and bad for the environment", my choice for protecting the environment and helping to save the planet happens to be DIESEL instead of gasoline.

Have fun! :)
 

TDILeo

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What Rico567 said.
The focus is on diesel right now and rightfully so due to what VW did. What VW did was unethical and wrong on so many levels it's not funny. I say there should be criminal charges brought for those individuals responsible for it.
As a diesel owner for the past 13.5 years and who logs around 1k miles/week, the news came as a shock to me too. However, it absolutely will not sway me from continuing to own and drive DIESEL vehicles. Absolutely no more gassers for me ever again if I can help it, including hybrids. My decision to "graduate" to diesel from gasoline was based on RESEARCH and not on any marketing hype from a car manufacturer. After logging 3/4 of a million miles in diesel vehicles, I have not regretted that decision one bit. I'm also way too addicted to the torque and efficiency and longevity of diesel to ever WANT to go back to gasoline again. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too. :)
Check out the links in my sig below for information about diesel emissions, efficiency, and performance. (Thanks wxman! :cool:) Aside from NOx emissions from affected TDIs being out of spec, they still are d@mn clean cars and cleaner than 95% of all cars on the road. I've said it before and I'll say it again....the sky is not falling. It's important to keep things in perspective.
I have mentioned this in earlier posts where I think this is only the start of things to come as gassers get tested under real world driving conditions using PEMS. I expect many DI gassers to fail since a lot of them are only marginally under the limits in all 5 categories of regulated emissions, and this is while on the dyno in the test cycle. PEMS testing may yield different results. IMHO, whether cheating is involved or not, non-compliance under real world driving conditions will not be limited to VW and not limited to diesel cars.
I need to go fix another batch of popcorn. :)
Your post could as well have been penned by me, it mirrors my feelings pretty closely although since my TDI is my second car, it has WAY fewer miles (5500+) and I drive it on 200+ mile journeys almost exclusively.

Yeah, the torque is addictive when you require it of the vehicle - available grunt is a big safety concern for me. Still, I do not want to walk away from this vehicle in spite of its emission transgressions.

A rumored buyback? With great reluctance. My expectation was this would be the last vehicle I would own. I did my research, too. Diesel was recommended to me by a long time TDI owner. Let's hope after Wednesday, we have a bit more clarity.
 

tariq

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n1das

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Love my TDI even more....

What gmcjetpilot said.

LOL, I'm prepared to do the exhaust pipe taste test demo on my BMW diesels if I encounter people giving me crap about "diesel is dirty and bad for the environment." I rev the engine up a few times and then offer to swab the inside of the pipes with my fingers and lick them afterwards while they watch and then challenge them to do the same on their gasser. The inside of the pipes on my BMWs remain incredibly clean after more than 50k miles on each vehicle. I've done this demo a few times for friends and a few coworkers. LOL, maybe I should shoot a video of it and post it up on YouTube and let it go viral. Prius owners, let's see your exhaust pipe taste tests! :D

 
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Kristen510

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2015 Golf TDI SE, 2002 Jetta GLS TDI
Wow.....that's amazing.

It's truly a horrible time to drive a TDI in public.
Really? I live in California and nobody's so much as looked at me funny. Anyone who says boo to me gets the finger, a huge smile, and a maniacal Joker laugh.

But then again, I'm on HPR.
 
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