Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[Farfromovin]

Oh man, this is big news! I've been a TDI owner for about 10 years now and just bought an Ecodiesel Jeep. After buying the Jeep I saw a lot of people online plagued with SCR and DEF injector issues. Jeep has done remap after remap, has 3 variations of SCR, and are now finally getting things stable. I was proud of how well the TDI's were doing in this regard but depending on how much bypassing is done by the software, that is a game changer.
Either way, I hope this is as simple as a reflash for those affected and hopefully those who are tuned can get a free or close to free remap again after the TDI is "fixed" in their database.


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[compu_85]

And now we know why so many people were getting letters asking CARB to emissions re-test their cars...

-J

 

[validius]

DO NOT GET THE RECALL

When you advance the timing or add excess air you get higher cylinder pressures, more heat, more efficiency, less soot and more NOx. Conversely, when you retard the timing or run richer mixtures you result in lower peak pressures, lower efficiency, more soot and less NOx.
What does this mean to you? Reading the recall, the violation is for excess NOx. This means that any fix performed will result in less efficiency and more regeneration cycles. It will also increase the amount of soot in the high pressure EGR.

Unless you believe that NOx is more important than fuel consumption and CO2 this recall will only hurt you.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

And now we know why so many people were getting letters asking CARB to emissions re-test their cars...

-J

Yep. I guess this is what that was all about.

 

[DeliveryValve]

...

Interestingly, 2012 and 2013 Passats are not included, but 2014 Passats and ALL 2015 model year vehicles (which include urea/SCR). Very strange.

Related to turbo failures?
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3209/vwp-14-04_turbocharger_limited_warranty_extension_2012_-_2013.pdf

.

 

[JimNap]

In California, they do not do a dyno test in diesels. Just a OBD2 diagnostic scan and snap test (accelerator exhaust smoke test).
It has to be a programming flag when the OBD2 scan is initiated.


.

I wondered about this is as well - so for those of us with a ScanGuage or a Bluetooth OBD2 scanner hooked up constantly, wouldn't the car always think it's in test mode?

This is my scenario and actually might explain why I've always had difficulty getting much better that 38mpg in city driving when the rest of you are getting 42+.

Could be very interesting indeed.

 

[compu_85]

Also, Caterpillar tried the same thing in the late 90s. And lost:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...62e7004dc686/93e9e651adeed6b7852566a60069ad2e

-J

 

[bhtooefr]

Some states require that you get recalls to maintain registration, though.

I'd say get the recall, then get a mild tune from a tuning vendor not based in the US.

And, as most states use OBD-II and maybe smoke opacity for the entire emissions test, they'd never have a reason to come across this. I'd guess that VeeDubTDI's assertion that it's based on dyno detection is the way it's using to circumvent this.

 

[mk3]

As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions. Are the Emissions rules more relaxed in Europe? How did these people justify the cheating in their mind so that they felt ok with it?

for other things related to the Earth the Europeans seem to be relatively progressive. My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place.

 

[validius]

Also, Caterpillar tried the same thing in the late 90s. And lost:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...62e7004dc686/93e9e651adeed6b7852566a60069ad2e

-J

Allot more than just Cat:

Caterpillar Inc., Cummins Engine Company, Detroit Diesel Corporation, Mack Trucks, Inc., Navistar International Transportation Corporation, Renault Vehicules Industriels, s.a. and Volvo Truck Corporation

 

[vwUMO]

If you have your car serviced at the dealer like I do, you can't avoid the 'update'. My car is fairly new and I have a service package, plus I don't trust anyone else to know what the proper oil to use, etc. Even in non-CARB states, dealer's will be instructed NOT to let cars leave without applying the update, even if you take in for just an oil change or other warranty work. This violation, if true, is very serious - can't wait to see the fine issued to VW by the EPA. Also wonder if VW will come up with any incentives to owners too. Curious that the 2015 Passat TDI is affected with the new TDI motor vs the 2014's, and why the 2012's and 2013's are not affected?

... and then come the crowd with their hands out wondering if they can shake a nickel loose

 

[jhinsc]

The potential fines are maximum penalties. The real fines will likely be substantially less.

We'll have to wait and see what comes out of this from VW. The big problem for VW is if they're guilty of a 'willful' act of wrongdoing, not that Hyundai, Kia, and Ford didn't do anything wrong either with their mileage inaccuracies either. They probably could get the original mileage quoted on their test tracks under very controlled conditions, just not in the real world we live, re: "your mileage may vary". You can't state the amount of pollution "will vary" depending on your driving habits, it either functions properly or not. This violation is very different because pollution controls are supposed to take the human quotient out of the picture, where we can't change how much emissions are put out of an engine, assuming no special tunes or modification were made.

 

[validius]

As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions. Are the Emissions rules more relaxed in Europe? How did these people justify the cheating in their mind so that they felt ok with it?
for other things related to the Earth the Europeans seem to be relatively progressive. My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place.

It is a decisions that blur the line between ethics and morals.

Depending on your view of environmental issues, this form of cycle beating could be called morally superior. Less fuel consumed and less soot.

 

[JimNap]

Here is the letter from EPA to VW...

It shows in the chart on page 5 all 2.0L TDI's being part of this, including the 2012 and 2013 Passats.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

The Detroit Free Press article quotes all these models affected:

Affected diesel models include:

• Jetta (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Beetle (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Audi A3 (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Golf (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Passat (model years 2014-2015)

So VW has been knowingly doing this for years without any attempt to fix or resolve the core issue. That's right, no better than GM or any of the others, kicking the can down the road to the next generation engine and the next exec in charge, when they promise to "finally" resolve the issue and get it right. I have such disdain now for auto execs and even less for the engineers who are complicit in crap like this instead of being a whistle blower.

 

[DeliveryValve]

Also, Caterpillar tried the same thing in the late 90s. And lost:

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...62e7004dc686/93e9e651adeed6b7852566a60069ad2e

-J

And then in 2010, Caterpillar exited the Highway Truck Business among other things as it was too expensive to comply.

 

[bhtooefr]

Ford and Hyundai/Kia's problems were related to improperly using a valid EPA test cycle, I believe, whereas this is far more of a blatant intentional violation.

Also, regarding VeeDubTDI's edit of the OP... 2012-2013 Passat are also affected even though the EPA press release left them out, and the assertion that it was done by detecting that the car was on a dyno was wrong.

 

[cevans]

Gosh - I do wonder what the larger-picture impact will be?

Overly-dramatic hypotheticals ahead:

No 2016 models released for months...maybe the entire model year? Now that they are in the crosshairs, VW will certainly need to prove their "fix" before EPA will allow it. That could take a LONG time.

VW delaying or cancelling new TDI models for the USA? If the new motor isn't emissions compliant, maybe they say forget it.

VW pulling out of the US market completely - after all they only sell about 300k cars here every year out of a worldwide 5.5 million. The size of this market may not be worth the time and effort if the EPA regs aren't reasonable.

 

[cevans]

Re: the dyno testing.

EPA does emissions compliance and efficiency ratings on a dyno. Regardless of the state inspection procedure, VWs had a switch that fooled the EPA test.

 

[aja8888]

Gosh - I do wonder what the larger-picture impact will be?

Overly-dramatic hypotheticals ahead:

No 2016 models released for months...maybe the entire model year? Now that they are in the crosshairs, VW will certainly need to prove their "fix" before EPA will allow it. That could take a LONG time.

VW delaying or cancelling new TDI models for the USA? If the new motor isn't emissions compliant, maybe they say forget it.

VW pulling out of the US market completely - after all they only sell about 300k cars here every year out of a worldwide 5.5 million. The size of this market may not be worth the time and effort if the EPA regs aren't reasonable.

Add to the above: Resale value of used TDI's diminished.

 

[cevans]

Add to the above: Resale value of used TDI's diminished.

Yep - this is plenty for a class-action suit. If the EPA figures go down and the resale goes down, VW is in for a ride...

 

[Chilcoot]

Terrible.

This is REALLY terrible.

As Americans, we've set emissions limits on vehicles. Rather than comply, a manufacturer decides to cheat, by making its car seem clean to regulators while knowing that, out on the roads, the cars will be far dirtier. "Screw you, Americans, we found a way to cheat and we don't think you'll do anything about it."

All to chase profit.

I hope government regulators exact a penalty large enough to deter VW and other manufacturers from cheating like this again.

Just terrible.

 

[andyrooski17]

As many have suggested in the Mk7 Golf forum, this is likely the answer to why the 2016 Golf TDI and GSW were being held in port, while their TSI counterparts have been in dealerships.

Very discouraging. I'll be highly disappointed if my FE drops due to the recall.

 

[LogicBomb]

It'll be interesting to see how this develops. If the reflash, if that's even the proper remedy, diminishes fuel savings, or ends up shortening the life span of certain pieces of equipment, it would most likely lead to a lawsuit.

Massively disappointing VW.

 

[jhinsc]

After further reading the EPA letter, I wonder why they didn't put a "stop sales" order out for VW TDI's until the software fix was applied?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

This is embarrassing as a VW owner, but more importantly as a diesel owner. Here we are trying to increase diesel's share of the marketplace, and Volkswagen, the largest seller of diesel vehicles, is actively circumventing emissions regulations and creating a very negative news day for diesels.

 

[evoblade]

Wow! I'm just reading this news now. Forgive my ignorance (I live in an non-emissions area), how would a car "know" it was being tested?

Maybe if there was a device detected plugged into the OBD2 port. When I was in Indiana, our "emissions" test consisted of plugging a computer into the OBD2 port. I assume it was checking for emissions related error codes. There were no tailpipe checks.

 

[mk3]

After further reading the EPA letter, I wonder why they didn't put a "stop sales" order out for VW TDI's until the software fix was applied?

because in the big picture it's not that serious. Was there a stop sales order for the Toyotas ? The Boeing Dreamliner was allowed to fly without finding root cause for the battery failures. They just put an exhaust pipe to exit the plane in case the batteries smoked and built heavier containment for the fire.

I take emissions seriously and I do think VW should git stiff punishment. I just do not see a need to halt selling of cars.

 

[evoblade]

This is embarrassing as a VW owner, but more importantly as a diesel owner. Here we are trying to increase diesel's share of the marketplace, and Volkswagen, the largest seller of diesel vehicles, is actively circumventing emissions regulations and creating a very negative news day for diesels.

Yeah I'm kinda pissed about it too.

 

[dubStrom]

other auto manufacturers...

I'll bet this is a factor in Subaru's boxer 4 diesel about face a few years ago, and Mazda's delay with the SkyActiv D models (the engine is featured on the USA Mazda website!).

Maybe they had to emasculate the performance and fuel economy to comply, and felt diesel no longer had any advantage.

Also, you wonder if they suspected VW, or just felt like they were inferior engineers since they could not get the numbers VW has been getting?

Imagine the meetings and decisions getting made at VW right now! Scary time for engineers, regardless of complicity!

 

[learningneverends]

My 2011 is 5 years old this month which means in Delaware I am due for my first(not at dealer) emissions test and registration. When purchased new the first registration(at dealer) is good for 5 years and no inspection or emissions is needed. I should go have it done ASAP before any government action is taken. Otherwise I may be forced to have some type of software update pre inspection/emissions test. I am betting the update will include my engine life being shortened by reburning exhaust. 'Clean diesel'. . Haha. No such thing may be true.