Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[pparks1]

The 2012+ Passats do, but the 2009 to 2014 Jetta/JSW/Golf/Beetle do not.

But here i sit with my AdBlue Passat and it's still included in the list of vehicles which don't meet emissions. So, just having the AdBlue system is not enough.

 

[dhectorg]

"My TDI is worthless..."

I don't get that mentality. You'll only "lose" money if you sell it NOW. Hang onto it and drive the wheels off. This is reminiscent of folks defaulting on their home loans when the housing market tanked. My home took a huge hit in value. But I didn't lose anything because I haven't sold it. I'm sure it has bounced back plenty since then. The same should be true of my TDI.

I plan to get a Malone tune. But, first, I'll accept VW's recall to be compliant on paper. We'll see if the MPGs suffer. Regardless of what the recall accomplishes, I'll wind up with a tune and whatever benefit it yields.

Scott

Here is my TDI in case anyone is interested
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448700

Don

 

[sriracha]

I really hope they don't retrofit a urea AdBlue system to our cars. Hopefully they can get it close enough through a software update, and pay EPA a fine, allowing our slightly-non-compliant vehicles to continue driving on the roadways, sipping 45mpg.

 

[dasBlinkenlight]

But here i sit with my AdBlue Passat and it's still included in the list of vehicles which don't meet emissions. So, just having the AdBlue system is not enough.

The list comprises those cars sold with defeat software installed regardless of their actual emissions. Yours may or may not be okay with the urea.

 

[Geobmx4life]

Wow, greed for greed

Do you really think that VW should pay for the 4 years you used your 2011? You really don't think that is asking too much?

Disillusioned greed...but in the end VW profited HUGE from this...this whole thread has been entertaining and amusing, its incredible what "DIESELGATE" has brought out of people....new ones coming in, and true TDI veterans...none of it changes the fact that I'll always drive a TDI.

 

[TDI smile]

Disillusioned greed...but in the end VW profited HUGE from this...this whole thread has been entertaining and amusing, its incredible what "DIESELGATE" has brought out of people....new ones coming in, and true TDI veterans...none of it changes the fact that I'll always drive a TDI.

TDI will stay in my Garage ready to drive the Highways of Northamerica forever and if I get old enough, make it to a Million Kilometers without any trouble....

 

[S2000_guy]

Sorry, I got carried away in a bad moment. And yes, the air WE all breathe is more important. I just hope EPA compliance can be met with another software flash and not impair mileage/performance. But I don't think that's going to be the remedy.

No problem; most of us have gotten carried away in Internet discussions.

A few days ago, I almost posted that I wanted to see those who knew about the "cheat" tried and sent to prison... in Turkey. ;-)

I'm not optimistic about the outcome for me (2014 JSW with 29k miles), but only time will tell. Here's wishing both of us good luck as this gets resolved...

 

[Jordalenko]

I am not at all interested in a hack 'retrofit' of an SCR system in my '11 Golf. I have absolutely no confidence in a dealer's ability to successfully install something 'custom' that was not integral to the original design. And given the number of retrofits that need to be completed, I'm sure VW dealers are not exactly thrilled at this prospect, whatever they may be compensated.

Perhaps VW should clear any retrofit 'designs' with the loyal customers they defrauded. Remember folks, the harm in this matter is to the purchaser of a misrepresented vehicle.

As I have stated before, when I went shopping for a new car, it came down to a GTI or a TDI. I love my TDI. So it kills me to say this, but if VW wants to make it right with me, I'll give them back my TDI for a new 2015 GTI straight across similarly equipped. Frankly, I don't think that is asking too much, given the depth of this deception.

I made this same suggestion to a sales manager at VW today. As an owner, the first thing I thought of when this hit was 'VW is going to have to make me happy.'. The next thing was 'what about the guys who work at the dealerships?'.

The biggest loser in this is the brand. I am invested in one car. These people do this for a living on the back of this brand.

So the salespeople are sitting there waiting for us to come in...listening to our stories...and wondering what their next 6 months and year are going to be like. They may be on commission... Thinking of resigning en masse.

Talking to the guy today, I said I am not interested in going down to a similarly worn TSI Jetta from my TDI. Not even with a couple grand on top. Not even with a new TSI.

The GLI or GTI are better cars but I sacrifice economy. I suggested that a brand new base model GTI would be what I would expect to pay a tiny premium for with my 22k TDI. No taxes, no dealer fees, not even half a day filling out paperwork. I didn't intend to be buying another car so I am not interested in any part of this transaction, let alone absorbing the depreciation. Just give me the keys.

I get to explain this to a guy who is in worse than me.

 

[TDILeo]

Forgive me if this has already been posted. Yeah, a lot of regular Joes and Jills prolly have a lot of angst about this. Geez, now I feel like a real s***heel.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...uing-vw-over-dirty-diesel-scandal-092515.html

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

But here i sit with my AdBlue Passat and it's still included in the list of vehicles which don't meet emissions. So, just having the AdBlue system is not enough.

That's because VW tuned your car for maximum fuel economy, thinking they wouldn't get caught cheating on emissions because they didn't get caught cheating on the LNT cars. It's no different than Lance Armstrong's blood doping to win all those bike races. Totally unfair competitive advantage, and they used that advantage to sell cars.

Compare the Chevy Cruze fuel economy and torque to your TDI's fuel economy and torque. That should give you a ballpark idea of what your TDI will be like after they install the new software to pass emissions. Fuel economy and torque will be reduced, and no one will be happy about it.

 

[dhectorg]

So VWoA has really has few options with the EPA. They have to account for the cars that are on the road not in compliance. They must have a full list of them and have an answer on each car or face the max penalty on each instance.
As owners, we can refuse to comply with what VWoA wants. VWoA would then face a fine. The way I see it, they can either pay me or pay the fine.
Now, with the fine looking like it's over $30,000 per instance, I'd probably be happy with $20,000 and they take my car. I'd go get something else. They would pay me less than the EPA and would have an accounting of the vehicle.
I'd then take that $20,000 and put it towards a compliant TDI.

No car company has ever been assessed a maximum fine... Not GM for the ignition switch scandal, not Toyota for the sudden acceleration scandal, etc. VW will likely wind up paying $1 or $2 billion tops, no where near the $18 billion that has been suggested in the media.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

The list comprises those cars sold with defeat software installed regardless of their actual emissions. Yours may or may not be okay with the urea.

That's not how it works. The current ECU tune doesn't pass emissions on the road, so it won't pass EPA certification without the cheat software. The ECU will have to be remapped to use more EGR and more urea as well. Fuel economy and torque will take a hit. It's inevitable.

 

[SageBrush]

?
10338 grams of CO2 per gallon of diesel
10338 gpg / 40 mpg = 258.4 g/mile
10338 gpg / 33 mpg = 314.2 g/mile

The article quote said

One other hint to the changes lies in the CO2 output ratings which put the Zafira Tourer at 220 grams per mile while the Cruze is at 307 grams per mile.

You can see the error in the ratios also. They do not correspond.

 

[XJTdi]

Do you really think that VW should pay for the 4 years you used your 2011? You really don't think that is asking too much?

No, I don't expect them to hand me the keys to a new one. A generous trade in offer would probably work for me. In the last five years I have put a ton of miles on the car. Checking KBB tonight says my car is worth only $7600 trade in to a dealer. Not much more to a private party. If a retrofit does not go well or a lowball buyout is offered, it would be adding insult to injury. I will do everything I can to not feed the class action lawyers.

I bought the car for same reasons many have expressed here. My plan was to keep it for around 10 years. It was paid for a long time ago, so my current and for the immediate future costs are low at the moment.
The way CARB is they might not let me keep it next year. Remember it was not that long ago that there were California emission cars and 49 state cars.

If VW is reading this, I am willing to meet you in the middle somewhere. A generous trade in, Discount off of list, and or 0% financing. Some combination of the three will help everyone out. Customers, dealers, and VW.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

Forgive me if this has already been posted. Yeah, a lot of regular Joes and Jills prolly have a lot of angst about this. Geez, now I feel like a real s***heel.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...uing-vw-over-dirty-diesel-scandal-092515.html

This is why a partial buyback absolutely makes sense for VW, if the numbers are reasonably close (buyback vs. retrofit). People need new cars, VW dealers need to sell new cars. Kill two birds with one stone, assuming most current owners stay with the brand.

 

[TDILeo]

This is why a partial buyback absolutely makes sense for VW, if the numbers are reasonably close (buyback vs. retrofit). People need new cars, VW dealers need to sell new cars. Kill two birds with one stone, assuming most current owners stay with the brand.[/QUOTE

I wonder if this mess has impacted the workforce at the VW Audi engine manufacturing plant in Gyor, Hungary. I'm guessing yes.

 

[POedinSantaRosaCA]

Dealer Shout out in Santa Rosa CA

After I heard the news on Sept 18, I wondered how the dealers were spinning this debacle. So the following day after front page stories everywhere, I called the local dealer, Hansel Volkswagen in Santa Rosa CA.

After connecting with a sales guy, I asked if TDI wagons were still available after the EPA's action. I told him I was interested in getting one and asked If they were still selling them. He blandly said "we don't know what is going to happen, there is no recall (perhaps not from VW) and yes they were still selling them and had several sitting on the lot". And so I promised to hustle on over.

Sadly, I was off my game that day. In hindsight I should have driven right over to the dealer and bought one so they could stew in further malfeasance. But I was so dumbfounded it was all I could do to not burst out laughing until I hung up and told my wife.

Stupid, ignorant, arrogant, or reciting policy from on high I don't know, but it reinforced my conviction never to believe a word out of a dealers mouth.

I have had a TDI since 2010 and was quite happy with it but my slow burn turned into a raging California wildfire as the puzzle pieces fell into place. Hence my decision to share this experience, particularly after reading the notices from some proactive dealer groups on dealing with lemons that are not likely to make good lemonade

For those of you thinking that some deal would be struck with EPA, California Air Resources Board (CARB) is another matter altogether. For LA in particular, NOx is a big deal unlike Wyoming. CA was first out of the gate with regs stricter than EPA so that for some time cars fell into 49 state and 50 state categories, as in California and the rest. Now it seems to have become equal but CARB will have its own opinion on any fix and can readily withhold registration for any car not doing the recall by the time registration is due. California is left coast eco central and accounts for a disproportionate number of TDIs sold, most bought by the eco minded who have never contemplated a diesel. Of the 4 people I know with recent TDIs, only one had ever driven a diesel before and that was a tractor, the others are all eco nuts. And none are likely to be mollified by anything VW does. Personally, I don't rule out a buyback since the fix will be a software and hardware kludge at best and mine will be disposed of soon.

 

[ConvergenceFreak]

That's because VW tuned your car for maximum fuel economy, thinking they wouldn't get caught cheating on emissions because they didn't get caught cheating on the LNT cars. It's no different than Lance Armstrong's blood doping to win all those bike races. Totally unfair competitive advantage, and they used that advantage to sell cars.
Compare the Chevy Cruze fuel economy and torque to your TDI's fuel economy and torque. That should give you a ballpark idea of what your TDI will be like after they install the new software to pass emissions. Fuel economy and torque will be reduced, and no one will be happy about it.

I have often thought that the diesel gate deception has very similar parallels to Lance Armstrong's doping scandal. It came almost out of nowhere, has been going on for years, a lie too big to let out of the bag, too many people would be let down and a brand boosted out of the product of that lie (LiveStrong).

That said, I am planning on holding onto my '02 Jettawagon for some time to come.

 

[dhectorg]

Recall or not, my 2011 Golf will never see the inside of a VW dealer again and VW will never touch my vehicle. I live in a redneck Rocky Mountain red state that has never had vehicle inspections and likely never will given the political climate here.
Denial of registration for "dirty" vehicles in my state doesn't happen either like in CommieFornia or New York. Sometimes it pays off to live in hick "flyover" zones in the U.S. I'll just keep on enjoying my Black Market VW which is MANY TIMES cleaner than a 1980s or 1990s diesel (for all of you off the deep end miffed hippie greenie types).

You ought to calm it down. Everyone who owns one of these cars has every right to be concerned, frustrated. They also have a right to be upset that the cars are 'dirtier' than they were promised. These complaints have absolutely no effect on you personally, so there is no need to get personal.

 

[linux_author]

interesting that as of this morning, there is still no recall for a VW TDI listing through VW or NHTSA? (there are three recalls for 2015 Golf gassers)

willie
on the still-waiting-for-a-recall Gulf of Mexico

 

[texsize]

how about this idea. VW can replace my spare tire with an Adblue tank and give me a set of run flat's or... a lifetime free roadside assistance.
My real question on the Adblue possibility is this. where do you put the extra catalytic converter in a car that was not designed for it???
texsize.

 

[panda]

Ok, What VW did was very, very bad but has anyone done a back of envelope calculation on the amount of CO2 not released into the atmosphere by driving a car tuned for mpg?

The number of cars, years and resulting distances traveled is staggering. The amount of diesel fuel NOT burned and the amount of CO2 NOT released would be an interesting talking point.

I've always felt people should be made to buy their fuel in 1 gallon containers, carry them to their vehicle and add them by hand with a funnel. It would give a new perspective of what really happens during and after that 25 gallon fill up. I have a 1 ton dump that gets infinite mpg (most of the time) because I have a hard time justifying moving it when it gets 8 mpg on a good day. It's not a diesel by the way. I know most people don't care about their overall petroleum usage now that pump prices are in free fall but efficiency should still matter.

 

[jimbo1mcm]

VW dealers are in an interesting spot. They are independently owned and VW's action has really hurt them for now and the future. Do they sue VW? If they sue then does VW cut their allotment of new cars as punishment? I am really ambivalent regarding the dealers. They are out to maximize their profit when they are selling or servicing a car. Interesting that we are now kind of in the same boat.

 

[LRTDI]

VW dealers are in an interesting spot. They are independently owned and VW's action has really hurt them for now and the future. Do they sue VW? If they sue then does VW cut their allotment of new cars as punishment? I am really ambivalent regarding the dealers. They are out to maximize their profit when they are selling or servicing a car. Interesting that we are now kind of in the same boat.

Within 50 miles of me there are way more VW dealers than are actually needed. So here there may be some who die a death as a result. Your region may be different.

If it wasn't pissing down with rain today, I'd be going to visit the dealership and drive the Tsi v Tdi Sportswagen back to back.
Too early to make a decision on which powerplant to have until the Tdis are approved for sale and we know the MPG hit they will take. This stop sale better be over before my kid passes his driving test.

 

[oilhammer]

VW dealers are in an interesting spot. They are independently owned and VW's action has really hurt them for now and the future. Do they sue VW? If they sue then does VW cut their allotment of new cars as punishment? I am really ambivalent regarding the dealers. They are out to maximize their profit when they are selling or servicing a car. Interesting that we are now kind of in the same boat.

Most won't be effected much, since most will be part of a larger multi-brand dealership network. Volkswagen decades ago lost their ability to stand on their own in this market. In the '70s the franchise owners took on other brands, usually Japanese, to fill in the gap. The rest is history.

That said, in some areas, there may be big enough Volkswagen sales that a dealership is able to stand on their own, but they will almost certainly see a dip in sales traffic until this blows over. Remember, Americans have very short attention spans, and very short memories.

 

[panda]

If it wasn't pissing down with rain today, I'd be going to visit the dealership and drive the Tsi v Tdi Sportswagen back to back.
Too early to make a decision on which powerplant to have until the Tdis are approved for sale and we know the MPG hit they will take. This stop sale better be over before my kid passes his driving test.

I did that and despite my hesitation about new EA288 engine and the increased cost, after the test drive I bought the 2015 TDI Sportswagen. It remains to be seen if this was a bone headed move but so far it's been a joy to drive.

 

[Jeta Life]

Our cars are like 250lb linebackers

I have often thought that the diesel gate deception has very similar parallels to Lance Armstrong's doping scandal. It came almost out of nowhere, has been going on for years, a lie too big to let out of the bag, too many people would be let down and a brand boosted out of the product of that lie (LiveStrong).

That said, I am planning on holding onto my '02 Jettawagon for some time to come.

I think of my car as a heavy man sprinting. All this torque, the car has enormous power. But something's gotta give. It's kind of like a human being on drugs, it is a good analogy.

When I test drove some Asian cars recently I felt more relaxed almost in a Zen like zombie sort of zone. Whereas with TDI the torque can get almost addicting. I have been driving much slower with my TDI and it helps reduce my stress.

TDIs have this comfort zone in the 55 to 60 mph zone in the right lane and I don't care if others drive aggressively I slow down and try to get into a zone listening to music.

 

[Tfuce]

I did that and despite my hesitation about new EA288 engine and the increased cost, after the test drive I bought the 2015 TDI Sportswagen. It remains to be seen if this was a bone headed move but so far it's been a joy to drive.

I struggled with the same decision and ended up buying a new 2014 right after the '15s came out. Got a nice price and was a bit worried about a new model being built in a new plant. In hindsight, it looks like your decision will be better than mine. Yours already has the AdBlue system.

 

[Tfuce]

...none of it changes the fact that I'll always drive a TDI.

I hope we will always have the chance .

 

[ChemMan]

No car company has ever been assessed a maximum fine... Not GM for the ignition switch scandal, not Toyota for the sudden acceleration scandal, etc. VW will likely wind up paying $1 or $2 billion tops, no where near the $18 billion that has been suggested in the media.

Also the false dichotomy the prior person stated doesn't exist. GM wil pay a fine regardless. If the buyback the vehicles they will pay a fine, if they fix them they will pay a fine. The fine amount will be based on the severity of the issue and how diligently VW works with the EPA to resolve it. If they stonewall, obfuscate, and drag out the resolution the fine will be higher. If they produce a credible solution in a transparent manner it will be lower. The EPA uses the potential of a much higher fine to get companies to fix the mess.