Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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dirtysouthjacket

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI Premium 6MT, 2004 Jetta TDI GLS (sold)
The PD 1.9 Engine produced 100 horsepower, the 2.0 produces 140. How does the 5% increase in displacement permit a 40% increase in power unless there has been a chip "development" by the manufacturer.

I previously owned a 2003 Golf TDI. The engine threw a valve at 182,000 miles and I elected to buy a 2013 JSW 2.5 as the price of gas dropped to the point that the 36 mpg resulted in comparable costs to owning another diesel.

In the interim my wife purchased a certified Audi A3 TDI (2010) in 2012.
So we are part of the class that feels victimized by VW/Audi. We will still use the A3 for the foreseeable future but we are worried about our next Massachusetts inspection. If we fail to pass, what will be our recourse as it may be a while until there is a software fix. Can VW/Audi detune the 2.0 to make 105 hp? In a heavier car like the Audi will it drive sluggishly? Will VW Audi give us a gas loaner if we are without a vehicle?
FWIW I should no longer be a NEWBIE
FWIW, take a step outside and notice that life is still good. So far nothing bad has actually happened. Wait until something BAD has happened to you as an owner. I will suspect that in the end, no state will set the precedent of making a mandatory recall for a non safety issue. Nor restrict registration of our vehicles.

Time on the forum is not a requisite for Veteran Member status nor is number of posts. Looking at your post history you had a few posts in 03-04 and one or two in 13 and 14. Contributions to the forum raise your status, not occasionally asking questions.

Also, most VW owners arent surprised. There are instances of VW providing good service to TDI members but not as the norm. I do believe it has started getting better.
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
2018 Tesla Model 3: 217,000 miles
Why does this concern you? You only joined after the public announcement and you don't own a TDI. You have had one heck of a trolling ride, congrats.
He's been actively engaged in the conversation and I haven't seen any trolling come from him, and I've read every post in this thread. If you have an issue that I'm unaware of, feel free to contact me directly.
 

Borsig

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Location
va
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SE, 2015 GSW SEL (buyback), 2011 JSW (sold)
Everything We Can To Help
You were probably shocked and disappointed to learn that VW had installed software on millions of diesel vehicles to produce inaccurate test results. So were we. While the software doesn’t affect performance or safety, it allows the emission of unacceptable levels of nitrogen oxide, a pollutant. Like you, we are waiting to hear how VW will address the problem. We are confident a recall and remedy will be announced soon.
We encourage you to continue to drive your VW diesel until a recall is announced. In the meantime, here are some options we are offering to help:
VW Trade-in Guarantee: If you want to trade your diesel VW for a gasoline fuel VW, we will allow a trade-in amount equal to the average NADA trade-in value prior to the announcement and regardless of any subsequent market devaluation. This offer is valid until 10-31-15.
Brand Switch Offer: If you no longer want to drive a VW, we will allow the same offer as above toward the purchase of a Priority Nissan, Scion or Toyota. This offer is valid until 10-31-15.
Used Car Offer: If you no longer want to drive a VW and you don’t want to trade for a new Priority Nissan, Scion or Toyota, we will allow the same offer as above toward any of the more than 500 used vehicles in our inventory. This offer is valid until 10-31-15.
Buy Back Offer: If you just want cash for your diesel VW we will buy your car back for the average NADA trade-in value prior to the announcement and regardless of any subsequent market devaluation. This offer is valid until 10-31-15.
Expert Advice: We have established a special service advisor who is prepared to answer any questions you may have about the VW emissions issue.
50% Service Discount: In appreciation for your patience and understanding Priority will discount your next regularly scheduled recommended factory service (5,000 or 10,000 mile intervals) by 50%. Offer applies to all new or used gas or diesel VW’s purchased at Priority. This offer is valid until 6-30-16.
We sincerely regret you have been affected by this manufacturer action. Please call us at 855.865.0807 if we can help you in any way until the matter is resolved.

Smart dealer. Why? They know when this blows over people will want used TDIs. They're positioning themselves to have the deepest used TDi inventory in the state, for those that want to buck the EPA and get good fuel economy. And there are plenty that will want just that.

Also - the stop sale order is only on CPO TDI's I think. If VW didnt CPO it, they cant tell a dealer what to do with used cars afaik, any more than they can tell them what to do with a used Honda.

At the same time they can position them selves as helping customers, and being the "dealer hero" when really they are just padding their used Tdi inventory for the inevitable rush. Used tdi's are probably the hottest movers on the pre owned lot. Even now.
 

texsize

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Location
southern california
TDI
2013 jetta DSG.
for what it's worth

I have a Uncle that is German, he worked for Lufthansa and is now retired. I sent him an email to ask him about this mess and will post his reply minus personal remarks.
My email (Back in September of 2013 I bought a Jetta TDI. Now I am in the middle of this EPA/political disaster. I drive a long commute to work every day around 150 miles (240 kilometers) and the TDI looked like a good option. I like the car and I like the gas mileage but I am somewhat embarrassed to drive it now.
I am wondering what you are hearing in Germany about all this. From what I have heard diesel cars are more popular in Europe that they are here in the States. I also thought the "Green" movement is larger and stronger "politically " than it is here.
Do you think this will force VW to "buy back" all the cars that can't be made to pass the pollution requirements?)
His reply
(. Good to hear from you, although I am sorry for your embarrassment.
In Germany about 50% of new cars now have Diesel engines and the green movement is very strong.
The German ministry of transportation, it seems to me, put lots of pressure on VW to clean up the mess and I am sure they are working hard and fast to solve the problem.
I suggest you contact your VW dealer and first find out if your car, type serial nr., engine data, is affected. Perhaps it is not.
If it is certain that you car is involved, then ask about the fix, and until there is one you just keep going.
I don`t believe that VW will buy it back, but you also can ask your dealer, if he wants to take it back.
It is clear that VW is responsible for all damages you may have to suffer because of this matter.
You bought the car assuming it meets the spec. and if it turns out that this is not the case, it is up to VW and their dealer to compensate you.
I sure hope you the matter is solved to your satisfaction.)
texsize
 

VeeDubTDI

Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 2, 2000
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
2018 Tesla Model 3: 217,000 miles
The PD 1.9 Engine produced 100 horsepower, the 2.0 produces 140. How does the 5% increase in displacement permit a 40% increase in power unless there has been a chip "development" by the manufacturer.

I previously owned a 2003 Golf TDI. The engine threw a valve at 182,000 miles and I elected to buy a 2013 JSW 2.5 as the price of gas dropped to the point that the 36 mpg resulted in comparable costs to owning another diesel.

In the interim my wife purchased a certified Audi A3 TDI (2010) in 2012.
So we are part of the class that feels victimized by VW/Audi. We will still use the A3 for the foreseeable future but we are worried about our next Massachusetts inspection. If we fail to pass, what will be our recourse as it may be a while until there is a software fix. Can VW/Audi detune the 2.0 to make 105 hp? In a heavier car like the Audi will it drive sluggishly? Will VW Audi give us a gas loaner if we are without a vehicle?
FWIW I should no longer be a NEWBIE
You won't fail inspection as a result of this emission cheating until after the recall and fix have been issued. EPA FAQ says keep on driving.

If you don't want to be a newbie, you need to post more. Newbie status gets upgraded at 30 posts.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
The PD 1.9 Engine produced 100 horsepower, the 2.0 produces 140. How does the 5% increase in displacement permit a 40% increase in power unless there has been a chip "development" by the manufacturer.

I previously owned a 2003 Golf TDI. The engine threw a valve at 182,000 miles and I elected to buy a 2013 JSW 2.5 as the price of gas dropped to the point that the 36 mpg resulted in comparable costs to owning another diesel.

In the interim my wife purchased a certified Audi A3 TDI (2010) in 2012.
So we are part of the class that feels victimized by VW/Audi. We will still use the A3 for the foreseeable future but we are worried about our next Massachusetts inspection. If we fail to pass, what will be our recourse as it may be a while until there is a software fix. Can VW/Audi detune the 2.0 to make 105 hp? In a heavier car like the Audi will it drive sluggishly? Will VW Audi give us a gas loaner if we are without a vehicle?
FWIW I should no longer be a NEWBIE
I've dealt with a couple dealers over the years that do loaners. My current dealer does not though (they do a local shuttle service). If you want wheels and don't have an extra vehicle...I would mentally prepare yourself for picking up the tab for a rental car. Once for the initial reflash they do to "fix" the car...and again for any subsequent visits that results from stuff breaking that VW never intended to run much in the first place, lol.
 

RebelTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Location
Boston, MA
TDI
2016 Audi Q5 TDI, 2016 BMW 535d Xdrive
Just read an article in USAToday. Apparently back in 2011 there was an internal letter from Bosch warning VW not to use the defeat software for emissions. I wonder if there has ever been a case where a company corrected a cheat before getting caught. Too bad the same mistakes have to be repeated over and over and over. :(
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
Just read an article in USAToday. Apparently back in 2011 there was an internal letter from Bosch warning VW not to use the defeat software for emissions. I wonder if there has ever been a case where a company corrected a cheat before getting caught. Too bad the same mistakes have to be repeated over and over and over. :(
VW attempted to throw technicians and engineers under the bus with a press release they made this past week (blaming this all on low level employees). Everyone that sent an email to a boss and saved a copy on their home PC for posterity will be coming out of the woodwork.i.e. This guy or gal.

It's not the emissions issue that gets me. It's the dishonesty. If you **** up...own up to it and move on. They got caught...attempting to blame it on the little guy (when its clearly public knowledge that big decisions are not delegated in this company) doesn't make you look too good.
Weekly Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung reported that a Volkswagen technician raised concerns about illegal practices in connection with emissions levels in 2011. The paper also cited VW's internal investigators
 
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jimbo1mcm

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Location
CT USA
TDI
2015 SEL TDI PREMIUM Blue 2015 SEL TDI PREMIUM's Silver and Blue
THE INVESTIGATION will be pretty interesting. I hope we get the details of who did what and when. German laws are pretty strict regarding personal information, but the newshounds have sources that will get it out. Wonder if they will use lie detectors or even, like they used in the movie, scopolamine!! Start at the bottom guy, threaten him with big time prison unless he gives you someone higher, then keep going up the ladder.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
THE INVESTIGATION will be pretty interesting. I hope we get the details of who did what and when. German laws are pretty strict regarding personal information, but the newshounds have sources that will get it out. Wonder if they will use lie detectors or even, like they used in the movie, scopolamine!! Start at the bottom guy, threaten him with big time prison unless he gives you someone higher, then keep going up the ladder.
They won't have to do anything like that.;) I GUARANTEE that there are some pissed off VW employees out there that will be happy to return the favor to their employers.

http://media.vw.com/release/1075/

Berthold Huber, Deputy Chairman of the Supervisory Board, said: "The test manipulations are a moral and political disaster for Volkswagen. The unlawful behavior of engineers and technicians involved in engine development shocked Volkswagen just as much as it shocked the public. We can only apologize and ask our customers, the public, the authorities and our investors to give us a chance to make amends." The Supervisory Board today commissioned an American law firm to assist in further clarification and in preparing the necessary steps.
 

tyrntlzrdking

Banned
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Location
Michigan
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE 6MT
"binding measures and a timetable" by October 7 on how it will meet emission standard

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...eat-software-reports/articleshow/49126865.cms

The federal motor vehicle office told VW to set out "binding measures and a timetable" by October 7 on how it will meet emissions standards without resorting to software that rigs test results, Bild am Sonntag reported.

If Volkswagen fails to comply, the KBA warned in a two-page letter, the authority could withdraw approval for the affected models, meaning they could no longer be sold or even moved on German roads, the report said.


 
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Bulldogger

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Location
NY
TDI
2012 Golf killed by the dealer. 2014 Beetle given as replacement
The PD 1.9 Engine produced 100 horsepower, the 2.0 produces 140. How does the 5% increase in displacement permit a 40% increase in power unless there has been a chip "development" by the manufacturer.

I previously owned a 2003 Golf TDI. The engine threw a valve at 182,000 miles and I elected to buy a 2013 JSW 2.5 as the price of gas dropped to the point that the 36 mpg resulted in comparable costs to owning another diesel.

In the interim my wife purchased a certified Audi A3 TDI (2010) in 2012.
So we are part of the class that feels victimized by VW/Audi. We will still use the A3 for the foreseeable future but we are worried about our next Massachusetts inspection. If we fail to pass, what will be our recourse as it may be a while until there is a software fix. Can VW/Audi detune the 2.0 to make 105 hp? In a heavier car like the Audi will it drive sluggishly? Will VW Audi give us a gas loaner if we are without a vehicle?
FWIW I should no longer be a NEWBIE
Operative word is IF, people have to stop putting the cart before the horse. VW cheated on the EPA testing and all their cars were still passing state inspections. Obviously state inspections are not the same as EPA testing. Everybody is fine just like they were before the Fiasco started. Worry less and continue on with your lives and let VW come up with a plan. If and when they come up with a fix, you don't like it then you can plan your recourse because then you actually have something factual to base it on instead of all this hypothetical what if crap.

On a side note I agree it is wrong to lie and that VW should be held accountable, but I find it interesting that my wife uses half a gallon of diesel fuel a day to drive back and forth to work, but my home uses 3.8 gallons of diesel fuel to heat it during the cold months, and that exhaust is allowed to go directly into the atmosphere with no type of filtering what so ever..... But my VW is the real polluter :D
 

Shawn67

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
Location
Ma
TDI
2015 Passat SE TDI
The PD 1.9 Engine produced 100 horsepower, the 2.0 produces 140. How does the 5% increase in displacement permit a 40% increase in power unless there has been a chip "development" by the manufacturer.
Common rail fuel injection allows for very different approaches to fueling a diesel engine.

In previous diesel engines (including PD engine) fuel is injected in a single event, typically near top dead center to allow compression ignition to work. The cylinder pressure drops rapidly as the piston drops so most of the power from the power stroke has already been produced. It has also done that when the crankshaft journal is just past straight up, its lever effect on turning the engine is low.

A common rail fuel injection system doesn't have to inject all the fuel in one event. On a modern diesel they will actually inject fuel multiple times. It will inject a bit of fuel near TDC to initiate compression ignition but will will also continue to inject pulses of fuel during the power stroke to keep the combustion going which keeps cylinder pressure higher for far longer in the power stroke. That makes more power for a longer period of time during each power stroke, that is more torque. There is an additional benefit as the crankshaft is turning during this the lever arm of the crankshaft journals gives more mechanical advantage (lever physics) for the later occurring combustion, that also creates more torque.

Horsepower is calculated by HP = (torque X RPM) / 5252

Common rail allows for more torque to be produced. If you have more torque at the same RPM you also have more HP.

Shawn
 

miniion26

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Location
Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
TDI
2005 Mercedes E320 CDI
Now that our summer water restrictions are finally lifted, I was able to get out and do a proper hand wash on my ride. Looks bad ass as ever, drives exactly how it did last week and still getting great mileage.

How many of the dorks on here whining about NOx levels and contributing to childhood asthma and not being able to drive their car in good conscience because environment ACTUALLY looked into any of the emissions details when you bought your car? Or did you buy it because it was fairly well built, expected to last because diesels have longevity and the mileage kicks ass so you'll save a few bucks along the way? Get real, you bought the car cause it has a nice mix of torque, fuel economy and fun - the "clean diesel" aspect was a nice bonus that we could all feel silently smug about. Quit acting like you were physically assaulted by VW. VW has sh*t the bed here, and they'll pay dearly.

The best part still - VW hasn't announced ANYTHING regarding exactly the vehicles that will be recalled/fixed/whatever, nor what they'll do for owners! Almost 400 pages of jackassery, with a few dozen level headed posts from a handful of sane people, but absolutely nothing more than pure opinions and speculation about what will come of this. Goin driving tomorrow, just to burn some diesel.
Straight and to the point ! I admit I am one of these guys who bought it for the above mentioned reason.
 

miniion26

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Location
Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
TDI
2005 Mercedes E320 CDI
Now that our summer water restrictions are finally lifted, I was able to get out and do a proper hand wash on my ride. Looks bad ass as ever, drives exactly how it did last week and still getting great mileage.

How many of the dorks on here whining about NOx levels and contributing to childhood asthma and not being able to drive their car in good conscience because environment ACTUALLY looked into any of the emissions details when you bought your car? Or did you buy it because it was fairly well built, expected to last because diesels have longevity and the mileage kicks ass so you'll save a few bucks along the way? Get real, you bought the car cause it has a nice mix of torque, fuel economy and fun - the "clean diesel" aspect was a nice bonus that we could all feel silently smug about. Quit acting like you were physically assaulted by VW. VW has sh*t the bed here, and they'll pay dearly.

The best part still - VW hasn't announced ANYTHING regarding exactly the vehicles that will be recalled/fixed/whatever, nor what they'll do for owners! Almost 400 pages of jackassery, with a few dozen level headed posts from a handful of sane people, but absolutely nothing more than pure opinions and speculation about what will come of this. Goin driving tomorrow, just to burn some diesel.
I also wonder how many of the guys with a DPF delete are making public their outrage regarding the NOx scandal?
 

scooperhsd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
Kansas City KS
TDI
NB, 2000, RED(5 Speed conversion) 2015 Golf SE
Speak for yourself - I had issues during the work week - but I'm caught up now. It would be easier if people would quit panicing and say stupid things that need refuted
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
I could go out tomorrow and buy my asthmatic daughter a beautifully restored 64 mustang convertible form Gas Monkey Garage. Her friends would be all agog, she would love me for it, and her mom might even feel safer with her daughter in such a big heavy car.
That car, idling in line to pick up her little sister at kindergarten, would be actively poisoning everyone there, not just with NOx, but benzine and all the rest of the unburned hydrocarbons the thing "SPEWED", 1000's of times more and 1000's of time worse (wait, how's the condition of that carb and choke linkage? Not so good, make that 1,000,000's). And the few percent of CO it emitted would give her little brother we had already picked up at daycare a head ache in the back set, and the VOC fumes would burn the eyes of the kids waiting on the curb and increase the risk of cancer for everyone there. And yet all the divorced mom's on the rebound would be giving me the eye for my sexy ride.
It's insane that the worst cars ever built, 60s and 70s American boats, are the most popular and revered classic cars. I've had to change lanes driving behind one because my eyes burned so badly. All 100 % legal.
This scandal is not really a public health issue, it is a corporate governance issue. All corporations are fiduciarily bound to maximize shareholder value. They are required to obey the letter of the law (many of which they have actually written, but that’s another story) and if they were to decide to play it too safe, say by trying to meet the expected air quality standards for 20 years in the future (a worthy effort given the spirit of the law) they could be sued by the shareholders if the decision reduced dividends or lowered the share price.
They are legally required to push the laws as far as they can. The line between illegal cheating and de rigueur rule beating becomes very vague. Less vague now, of course. You can bet the others are quietly checking and cleaning up their code right now.
on your point about 60's and 70's cars being noxious fume emitters i agree 100% it's so remarkable how clean cars have become over the decades... every now and then i still manage to find myself behind some "classic" vehicle and eyes burning from the fumage... as a matter of fact i just recently purchase 69' fastback mustang project....i was planning a supercharged fuel injected small block 351w, but this entire vw debacle has really brought to the forefront just how retarded ICE is for personal proplulsion ... so i've been seriously considering an all electric drivetrain swap into the classic stang!!.. anyone have a totalled tesla they are willing to part with ? ;).... maybe even a group funded project ? :D
 

trbobtn

Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Location
Quad Cities, Illinois
TDI
2015 Blue Silk Jetta TDI SE & 2006 Jetta Spice Red TDI
Wow. Finally finished reading this tome. A lot of talk, not a lot of information. I'll keep sifting through to find the useful information. Not worried about my 06 BRM, but I'm also not worried about my EA288 2015 Jettas either. I think they will be fine.

Love my compression engines. Always have.
 

raybo

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Location
St. Petersburg, FL
TDI
2010 JSW DSG White Gold
I could go out tomorrow and buy my asthmatic daughter a beautifully restored 64 mustang convertible form Gas Monkey Garage. Her friends would be all agog, she would love me for it, and her mom might even feel safer with her daughter in such a big heavy car.
That car, idling in line to pick up her little sister at kindergarten, would be actively poisoning everyone there, not just with NOx, but benzine and all the rest of the unburned hydrocarbons the thing "SPEWED", 1000's of times more and 1000's of time worse (wait, how's the condition of that carb and choke linkage? Not so good, make that 1,000,000's). And the few percent of CO it emitted would give her little brother we had already picked up at daycare a head ache in the back set, and the VOC fumes would burn the eyes of the kids waiting on the curb and increase the risk of cancer for everyone there. And yet all the divorced mom's on the rebound would be giving me the eye for my sexy ride.
It's insane that the worst cars ever built, 60s and 70s American boats, are the most popular and revered classic cars. I've had to change lanes driving behind one because my eyes burned so badly. All 100 % legal.
This scandal is not really a public health issue, it is a corporate governance issue. All corporations are fiduciarily bound to maximize shareholder value. They are required to obey the letter of the law (many of which they have actually written, but that’s another story) and if they were to decide to play it too safe, say by trying to meet the expected air quality standards for 20 years in the future (a worthy effort given the spirit of the law) they could be sued by the shareholders if the decision reduced dividends or lowered the share price.
They are legally required to push the laws as far as they can. The line between illegal cheating and de rigueur rule beating becomes very vague. Less vague now, of course. You can bet the others are quietly checking and cleaning up their code right now.
The reason we can breathe here in the US is because of the EPA. Call it what you will, but there is no good reason whatsoever why VW did not reduce the NOx. Smaller companies like Daimler and BMW managed to do it...everything else is just storybook...
 

1854sailor

Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Location
Westerly, RI
TDI
2015 Golf SE SportWagen, 2015 Golf SE Hatch Back.
Give That Man a Cigar!

...Maybe we could just defeat the steering column sensor and cheat the cheat into thinking we were on a dyno. Anybody found out the actual algorithm yet?
Duh! That would be too easy, though… :rolleyes:
 

roostre

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2012
Location
Puget Sound, WA
TDI
2012 Golf TDI DSG
Quoted from this article:http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34373637

Separately, Bild am Sonntag said the internal inquiry had found that parts supplier Bosch had warned Volkswagen not to use its software illegally.
…..

Citing unidentified sources, Bild said Bosch had warned Volkswagen as early as 2007 that its software should only be used in company tests and not for normal driving.
 

ZeroG

Active member
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Location
SF Bay Area, CA
TDI
2015 Golf
Just how dirty is dirty?

I can't even begin to keep up with this thread, so I apologize if what I write has already been said (multiple times) before.

To the question of just how dirty is the TDI? The WVU/ICCT real world driving study that helped promulgate all this tested just 3 vehicles: 2012 Jetta with NOx trap, 2013 Passat with urea SCR and BMW X5 with urea SCR. It found all three vehicles well below EPA threshold for all metrics except NOx. It found them better than European standards for PM (particulate matter). It found that the X5 was below NOx limits in all driving tests except "uphill/downhill rural driving." It found the 2013 urea SCR Passat was often below NOx thresholds, particularly on flat roads and cruise control highway driving. On the test drive between San Diego and Seattle, it was below NOx thresholds 50% of the trip and on average exceeded EPA standards by 6 fold. This is actually pretty amazing performance. The study's stated purpose wasn't to bust VW but to demonstrate discrepancies between real world and test performance, something the ICCT had already demonstrated for 13 different manufacturers across gas and diesel for efficiency related metrics. Why should they be the same? The dyno tests are simply 10 minutes of attenuating the speed on weighted rollers. They don't account for hills, headwind, driver variability... all factors demonstrated by the study to affect emissions performance. Some factors you hope are invariant since the emissions controls are catching them, some aren't (like CO2). If you step on the gas uphill, there's more environmental stress, clearly.

Okay, not to excuse VW's performance (corporate or vehicle), but: the Passat's NOx output between SD and Seattle averaged 0.415g/mile with a huge standard deviation (btw: I love mixing metric with US unit miles). For comparison, in 2013 California was estimating the state's fleet of light duty vehicles was putting out 0.213g/mile NOx in real world conditions (3 fold greater than the EPA threshold of 0.07g/mile for new vehicles). That estimate is likely too low though. In 2008, the EPA estimated the real world passenger fleet average was 0.693g/mile. That's probably gone down by now. (These are numbers I found on the agencies' websites respectively). So, how did the 2012 urea SCR VW do? A bit worse than average for CA. Considerably better than average for the national average. And, of course, considerably worse than average against what it was supposed (EPA) to or was advertised as. I haven't seen any evidence that many of the effected models won't pass CA smog testing without the defeat device. If the tests change (as is the recommendation), that's a different story.

Regulators seem to face a bit of a dilemma with regard to fixes. The NOx fixes (like changing how lean the engine runs) could drive down NOx emissions while increasing other pollutants. So which pollutants do you care about more? Even in fairly strict California, NOx is considered more of an urban problem (smog, not to belittle acid rain in rural areas). About half the state is even considered NOx exempt where commercial operators can apply for exception if their vehicles are staying within area (ex. buses and logging trucks). The idea (right or wrong) is that the NOx breaks down before doing any damage. As for the VWs, vehicles like the 2009 are probably beginning to be retired anyway. It's not clear to me that any drastic fix make environmental sense.

Ditching vehicles is insane (ex. lemon laws). A huge part of a vehicle's footprint is from manufacture (estimates often state around 50%). Once they're out there, they have to be pretty dirty before it makes sense to obsolete them for something new. I'm happily keeping my 2015, not to say I'm not a bit disappointed with the news.

Aaron in Berkeley, CA
 
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scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
Recall or not, my 2011 Golf will never see the inside of a VW dealer again and VW will never touch my vehicle. I live in a redneck Rocky Mountain red state that has never had vehicle inspections and likely never will given the political climate here.

Denial of registration for "dirty" vehicles in my state doesn't happen either like in CommieFornia or New York. Sometimes it pays off to live in hick "flyover" zones in the U.S. I'll just keep on enjoying my Black Market VW which is MANY TIMES cleaner than a 1980s or 1990s diesel (for all of you off the deep end miffed hippie greenie types).
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
My German sister in law told me that the German media is saying the cars actually pass the EPA/CARB standards, but don't meet the stated VW estimates.
 
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