Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

Status
Not open for further replies.

jhinsc

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Location
Coastal SC
TDI
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium
I think one point we all need to remember is to not take this out on your local dealer - they were not involved in the design of the 'software switch'. Be patient, let VW corp figure what the next step is before jumping to conclusions. Dealer's are already worried enough about how this will affect their sales and service and there's nothing they can do about it until VW corp passes on the "fix" to them. In the meantime, I'm sure they were given a 'heads-up' by VW corp that this issue was going to hit the media. While I think they won't be surprised if the issue is brought up to any dealer staff, they won't have any answers other than standard PR until a resolution has been defined and agreed to between VW corp and EPA.
 

Bmr4TDI

Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2015
Location
Georgia
TDI
none
I think you misunderstand the law. Not looking for any argument, so feel free to disagree, or research more.

and there are differences between state and federal laws. some states have specific exemptions for registered race or show cars, some do not.

where there are specific exemptions, they apply. but usually they come with paperwork. just tearing off the equipment from a car sold in the us with an EPA compliance certificate without the proper paperwork is a violation

policies for civil fines are discussed here (kind of old, but basically says balance the fine with the damage, unless you have to make a point)

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/vehicleengine-penalty-policy_0.pdf

as a practical matter, your description is close. the likely course for a single owner would be to have to fix (repair the removed or disabled emissions) the car, instead of getting a hefty fine. but that does not make the law go away.
My only point with all of this is they should not create a new law preventing anyone from doing anything to their own vehicle. If someone wants to put an offroad tune or mod on their car, they should be able to knowing that they have just made the car illegal to drive on public roads. That's all I'm trying to say.
 

Bmr4TDI

Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2015
Location
Georgia
TDI
none
Not so much.....when they are registered for road use.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
No, you still can do whatever you want EVEN after its been registered for road use. You just can't put it back on a public road until you've undone whatever non-road use legal modification you've made. Otherwise you risk being ticketed.

My point is no one can stop you from making any modification to your own car. Only thing the law prevents is where you can then use your car.
 

maybe368

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2014
Location
Phoenix
TDI
Happily none
Another way to look at this is that it is the possible fraud committed by VAG on the buyer. It is misrepresenting the product that the consumer is buying. IMO. it is not a minor mis-representation either. I could see a class action possibly resulting in VAG having to buy back your car. It is a classic example of corporate avarice and the sense that it can do what it wants with impunity. I like clean air and clean water, seems like a no-brainer to me and I like honesty, a virtue that seems lacking in this case...Mark
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
Another way to look at this is that it is the possible fraud committed by VAG on the buyer. It is misrepresenting the product that the consumer is buying. IMO. it is not a minor mis-representation either. I could see a class action possibly resulting in VAG having to buy back your car. It is a classic example of corporate avarice and the sense that it can do what it wants with impunity. I like clean air and clean water, seems like a no-brainer to me and I like honesty, a virtue that seems lacking in this case...Mark
Yup. This topic came up with the GF (an attorney) last night. Your comment is exactly what she said. There are several hundred thousand people out there that thought they were buying a vehicle that not only got great fuel economy...but was environmentally friendly.

I don't think there's any doubt that this will result in a class action suit. It's just a matter of how much this is going to end up costing them. The combination of VAG's actions and intent (if this holds up in court) isn't going to do them any favors. Just my $.02...
 

maybe368

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2014
Location
Phoenix
TDI
Happily none
My only point with all of this is they should not create a new law preventing anyone from doing anything to their own vehicle. If someone wants to put an offroad tune or mod on their car, they should be able to knowing that they have just made the car illegal to drive on public roads. That's all I'm trying to say.
I believe that you can do whatever you want to your property, until it directly, negatively affects others. There are many laws prohibiting the alteration of emissions controls on vehicles and I find it interesting that many "law and order" types that I know are perfectly willing to violate state and federal law in order to "roll coal". They can do what they want, they just don't get the high ground on "law and order", IMO of course...Mark
 

Cool Breeze

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
US
TDI
BMW 335D
BINGO!!! Concur, the NOx for Diesels in the US is insane, not even the EU imposes such tight restrictions. Ours are from CARB (C for California) and specifically LA, where the geography cause smog issues, and of that NOx is a concern.. most everywhere else the NOx is not going to be an issue, an it is way over blown.. frankly LA has much bigger issues than a few TDIs on the road.
Incorrect. Current EU emissions match that of the US. The US leapfrogged the EU in ~'09 You may want to instead argue that NOX isn't as big a problem as CARB and EPA think it is.
 

Cabdriver

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Location
New Jersey
TDI
2009 JSW TDI
The article is written with little insight as to what VW did, what they describe is not really possible. The DPF and cats cannot be disengaged or circumvented so I am curious as to what VW actually did that allows the cars emit more less emissions when being tested.

Did they lean out air fuel when not connected? Maybe shut down EGR function when not being tested?

Not to sound like a fan boy but it sounds like there is much more to it than the reporters have access to or that's being published. I'm sure we will hear more.
 
Last edited:

REDNECKDZL

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Location
Omemee
TDI
2001 Jetta, 2015 Jetta, 1984 Wabbit TD, 1986 RX7 waiting on AHU swap
I'm sorry but this is all hilarious, these cars are definitely cleaner then anything before them, i'm not worried about the NOx emissions, they are still so minimal that they don't account for much even taking into consideration the amount of newer TDIs out there

I just hope VW gets smart and resolves this and we can move on
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
I'm sorry but this is all hilarious, these cars are definitely cleaner then anything before them, i'm not worried about the NOx emissions, they are still so minimal that they don't account for much even taking into consideration the amount of newer TDIs out there

I just hope VW gets smart and resolves this and we can move on
I do too, but I'm curious to see what happens. I have to assume that if it was going to be that easy for them to do the job right in the first place...they'd have done the job right.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
And it's worth noting that tuners would've kept offering tunes. It might've been a much more underground thing than it is, but it still would've been a thing.
 

Aquaticmind

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Location
Wheeling, WV via Athens Georgia via, Bainbridge Is
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
At least VW hasn't poisoned American pristine streams & rivers with toxic mine waste.
Try to remember that the "EPA spill" was caused by a private contractor (i.e. a private business) working for the EPA at an abandoned private mine site. The EPA and the contractor were trying to clean up a mess left by a private mining company, since the mining company abandoned the site after the cave in happened and the private mining compnay left the toxic mine waste behind for someone else to clean up. The mine waste would have leak out sooner or later had the EPA and contractor not been there.

VW intentionally circumventing emission requirements is entirely different. I would rather see the EPA require higher mpg for all cars and trucks and allow slightly higher NOx but that is still beyond the point. The real issue is about VW intentionally misleading customers and circumventing the law. They marked their cars to buyers as cleaner then they really were.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
Does a service/recall for that could have considerable impact on the performance of the vehicule ?
I have to admit that I'm curious about that, as well. My car far exceeds the EPA estimated fuel economy figures (as do many...if not most people's here). I wonder how much of that is to do with this "glitch."
 

ronaldleemhuis

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2010
Location
Erie, PA
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
For a moment, let's look for the most benign explanation of VW's actions. Suppose, for example, that DPF regeneration is an occasional operating mode that has high levels of NOx, particulates etc. One relatively benign explanation would be that VW does not want the EPA test results to be influenced by a random, but very significant, DPF regeneration. They could rationalize that the EPA knows about this, and that if the EPA cared, they would design on-road, full cycle certification testing protocols.

Furthermore, common practice in EGR use has been to avoid its use at full power, in order not to compromise performance. This has applied to gasoline powered engines for years.

The engineering teams involved in engine performance may have been assured that company policies required meeting EPA standards and that the EPA had a choice of how to do the testing. They may have been told that aftertreatment measures would handle any excessive NOx generated by low EGR rates under certain conditions.

I have carefully plotted the B1S2 oxygen sensor signal from my 2010 Jetta TDI (measuring group 38, field 4) and from my daughter's Golf TDI on typical 7 mile commuting trip. It shows a value of 0.126 about 5% of the time while the deNOx process is taking place. The signal exceeds this value (i.e. more than 0.126 and less than 0.5) about another 5% of the time. A look at the detailed waveforms shows the NOx storage and reduction cycles with only occasional interruption over a period of seconds, not minutes. Each long string of 0.126 values is preceded by a short rich burst and followed by a drop in O2 signal. This means that during typical cycling the NOx storage catalyst is not completely reduced (i.e. not all the NOx is removed with each cycle).

Another thing I noticed is that the percentile graph for O2 signal for values 0.126 and above follows a very stable and characteristic form, with percentiles from 0 to 99. It starts flat at 0.126 to a percentile of about 56, then rises in a curve convex upward to about 0.49 at a percentile of 99.

I interpret the positive readings as the time when the late post-combustion fueling leads to a rich (reducing) exhaust. If the light-off in the NOx storage catalyst were instantaneous, I think the amount of time and the magnitude of the rich readings would be less. I suspect that VWs models use the light-off time as an indicator of how much NOx is on the catalyst.

Apart from emissions associated with DPF regeneration, VW should not have any trouble programming the parameters for the NOx storage catalyst to achieve the required goals. Maybe the problem is with the DPF regenerations. As is, regenerations are done with EGR off. They could keep EGR on during regeneration and then heat up exhaust with early post-combustion fuel injection. The engine would produce less NOx because peak combustion temperature would be lower.
 
Last edited:

nzpete

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
Location
Alabama
TDI
2009 Jetta TDi
SOOOO! How many are going to go in for the "recall"? What about those owners that have had Malone or some other "tuning" done to their vehicles? It's going to be an interesting "wait and see" just what transpires.
Yeah, I can see the results of the BHO administration EPA findings to have an overall opposite effect by owners either seeking performance/efficiency modifications, or by simply avoiding the fixes all together if they live in a state that doesn't test (like mine).
 

thepirate

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Location
Connecticut
TDI
2010 Jetta Sedan
I just think about the arrogance on the part of VW mgmt., the deceit. Someone should go to jail for fraud!
This was specifically sold as a "clean diesel". In large part, that drove my purchase decision. Now, the car pollutes much worse than thought, and the resale value is for s&*t. Any fix will obviously effect performance/ mileage, which is why they chose this reckless path in the first place.
Have they never heard of "reputational risk". Apparently not. Very doubtful if I will ever buy VW again, and this was my first. NOT GOOD.
 

whelaniii

Member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Location
Gilmanton NH
TDI
2011 TDI Jetta sportwagon
Funny I own a 2011 tdi sportwagon and never smell or see any smoke from exhaust and yet my son has a duramax and I can smell the fumes and when he punches it you see black smoke, seems to me the Goverment is down on diesel powered cars
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
#1, if that Duramax is extensively modified or pre-2007, of course you'll see black smoke.

#2, the emission in question is nitrogen oxides, which you can't see.
 

nzpete

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
Location
Alabama
TDI
2009 Jetta TDi
I just think about the arrogance on the part of VW mgmt., the deceit. Someone should go to jail for fraud!
This was specifically sold as a "clean diesel". In large part, that drove my purchase decision. Now, the car pollutes much worse than thought, and the resale value is for s&*t. Any fix will obviously effect performance/ mileage, which is why they chose this reckless path in the first place.
Have they never heard of "reputational risk". Apparently not. Very doubtful if I will ever buy VW again, and this was my first. NOT GOOD.
But did you really buy your "diesel" because you thought it was going to be really clean? I would suspect that most bought them because of fuel mileage and/or just the gee wiz factor of owning a diesel. Purchasing because it was "clean"...not so much.
 

Aquaticmind

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Location
Wheeling, WV via Athens Georgia via, Bainbridge Is
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
VW has a big job ahead of them. They need to handle the PR right to avoid backlash from the current owners and the buying public who may have been considering a new VW, and now may go elsewhere.
My hope is that EPA's biggest concern is the "switch" and that a simple reflash will take of that and that VW was concerned about NOx issues related to regen cycles interfering with emission testing.

I really hope that this is something that sounds worse than it really is. I still love my TDI (2003 so it isn't affected) but I'm really disappointed in VW. At least they owned up to it and hopefully TDI's will still be popular and will remaine a better choice for the environment than gasoline chugging models.
 

Aquaticmind

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Location
Wheeling, WV via Athens Georgia via, Bainbridge Is
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Funny I own a 2011 tdi sportwagon and never smell or see any smoke from exhaust and yet my son has a duramax and I can smell the fumes and when he punches it you see black smoke, seems to me the Goverment is down on diesel powered cars
My understanding is that the the US government is pretty down on diesels (it is in part how we measure pollutants), largely because of the terrible GM diesels of the 1970's which were complete TERRIBLE by nearly all accounts.
 

CathyCioffi

New member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
Austin TX
TDI
2015 Golf TDI
Just purchased a 2015 VW TDI Golf last month. Wondering what to do. Love the car. Don't want to end up with performance issues after the fix is done. Any recommendations.
 

Aquaticmind

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Location
Wheeling, WV via Athens Georgia via, Bainbridge Is
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
But did you really buy your "diesel" because you thought it was going to be really clean? I would suspect that most bought them because of fuel mileage and/or just the gee wiz factor of owning a diesel. Purchasing because it was "clean"...not so much.

Clean is a bit in the eye of the holder. I got my TDI because it was cleaner in terms of mpg and the ability to use biodiesel than something that was gasoline powered. I love the TDI power when I need it and ability to drive long distances cheaply.
 

Aquaticmind

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Location
Wheeling, WV via Athens Georgia via, Bainbridge Is
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
For a moment, let's look for the most benign explanation of VW's actions. ..... Apart from emissions associated with DPF regeneration, VW should not have any trouble programming the parameters for the NOx storage catalyst to achieve the required goals. Maybe the problem is with the DPF regenerations.
I hope you're right.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
But did you really buy your "diesel" because you thought it was going to be really clean? I would suspect that most bought them because of fuel mileage and/or just the gee wiz factor of owning a diesel. Purchasing because it was "clean"...not so much.
I guarantee that some people considered it to be important. VW sure thought that would be a selling point, as their TV commercials were pitching the TDI "clean diesel.":rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top