Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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MrSprdSheet

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NOx is 10 to 40 times more than spec. Ok. How does the actual number compare to the old standard?
Here's how it compares to coal, in PHEV / BEV (electrics):

  • The filthiest coal plants are about 4lbs NOx per MWh.
  • 4lbs / 1,000kwh = 1.812 grams per kwh
  • Electrics generally get ~3.0 miles per kwh
  • Coal is 39% US electric mix, and falling
  • I'm giving VW all kinds of room here, because US fleet coal is more like 2lbs / MWh, but let's be pro-VW and assume...4
  • from above, 1.812 / 3 (.39 percent coal) = .236 gr / mile electric, with coal in its supply
  • Tier 2 Bin 5 is .09gr/mile, with VW at 40X = 3.600 gr / mile
Hence, "Ob NOx ious".
 
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tariq

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I don't know, maybe open the windows? We're talking Southern California, right?
I can tell you in Fl when it's 90+ degrees with 80% humidity much of the year, most folks are not going to open the window, particularly if they have a baby/ toddler in the car. Of course, the poor AC system in my fairly new TDI can't even keep up...In any case, all situations are unique.
 

Jeta Life

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NOX Pollution

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4898832&postcount=14

2009-2014 Jetta/Golf/Beetle/A3s are literally 1970s bad on NOx. (On other emissions they're quite good, mind you.)
I know I'm taking the lazy man's way out of this by not reading but how is it that our VWs are not controlling the NOX emissions properly ?

Is it partially because we do not have AdBlue tanks, my lean NOX trap on my 2009 must not be doing its job , I guess ?
 

VeeDubTDI

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Ummm I get why your upset....but have you read your SIG line lately? Can you say "the pot calling the kettle black"?
Thank you! What's with the people running around with modified TDIs complaining about other people's emissions. :confused:
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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Dealers charge close to 400-500 for the DSG service I believe last time I read on here. I'd rather spend the 130 or so in materials and do it myself. I've done more complicated things. Ever change a clutch on a Pontiac grand am? Was ready to shoot myself lol. I have a feeling it's mainly a pain in the ass because of the process, but worth saving 300+ bucks.
The first time you do it, it's a pain in the ass, but only because it's time consuming. I prefer to drain my DSG fluid entirely and refill where the filter goes (as opposed to the other method that requires that expensive tube that attaches to the fluid pan and requires VCDS). The tiny little hole where the fluid goes in means it'll be at least 30 minutes or so for all 4.5 quarts (or whatever it was) to flow in.

I think if I owned a Pontiac, I'd shoot myself. LOL
 

pkhoury

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Don't get me started on the idiots in LA that get on the freeway and drive for 3 exits to take their kids to school. Hello, surface streets, at the least?!
You mean the ones who try to get into the fast lane, doing 55mph when everyone's going faster, and then cut everyone off 3 exits later?
 

pkhoury

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I can tell you in Fl when it's 90+ degrees with 80% humidity much of the year, most folks are not going to open the window, particularly if they have a baby/ toddler in the car. Of course, the poor AC system in my fairly new TDI can't even keep up...In any case, all situations are unique.
FWIW, my AC just died recently. One of my best friend's mechanics suggested the pressure control valve, as verified by myturbodiesel. Replaced that, and WOW - the car's AC works better than what it was new. I know, off topic, but my 2 cents, so I just dealt with this 2 weeks ago.
 

JBell

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Agree. I don't see how I could consciously drive my TDI through the stop and go pick up line at my Childs elementary school in the knowledge that I might be poisoning all the kids standing outside, waiting to be picked up. I am ashamed to drive the car now and the stigma that it's polluting on a level higher than many large, dirty diesels on the road makes me sick...and I'm not the only TDI driver in my area that feels the same. Complete betrayal on the part of VW. I think this will kill the TDI brand and diesels in the U.S.

You are the reason why there's a perception of frivolous lawsuits for anything and everything.


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tsingtao

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I know I'm taking the lazy man's way out of this by not reading but how is it that our VWs are not controlling the NOX emissions properly ?

Is it partially because we do not have AdBlue tanks, my lean NOX trap on my 2009 must not be doing its job , I guess ?
When the trap is full, the NOx must be reduced to H2O, N2, and CO2 using diesel fuel. Speculation is that, if VW had the car inject enough diesel (post combustion) to do this, it would give crappy mileage and increased soot which compromise the life of the DPF
 

bhtooefr

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  • Tier 2 Bin 5 is .09gr/mile, with VW at 40X = 3.600 gr / mile
.07, not .09, for 2.8 g/mi.

And that is worst-case, but still. Let's be really kind to VW and say 10x (the low-end of the EPA estimates), you still get 0.7 g/mi.

Also, the coal plant's tailpipe doesn't exhaust in an urban area, it exhausts in BFE, and therefore doesn't contribute to the urban area's smog nearly as much.
 

pkhoury

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With the engines running the whole time. It is SUCH a bad example to set.
I hope that doesn't make me look bad, keeping my engine going with dogs in the car, at a rest stop, while it's 98 degrees outside. Then again, there are also trucks next to me that have bigger engines running constantly. Is NOx any worse at idle and not during a regen cycle?
 

Jeta Life

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SageBrush

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but that NOx standard of .04 gram per km is designed to regulate diesel away and now they have a stick.
43 mg/km is the limit for ALL passenger cars under 8500 lbs GVWR. Diesel is not being singled out.
 
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VeeDubTDI

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Or just don't drive their kid to school.

Walking, cycling, or taking the bus (depending on what options are practical in the area) would be better choices than driving a personal car to school.
I did all three of those things growing up. My mom would occasionally pick me up half way home, as she got off work at around the same time school let out, and I'd start walking rather than sitting around and waiting.

I don't really understand this new door-to-door drop-off service that parents are doing for their kids these days. :confused:

PS: git off mah lawn! ;)
 

pkhoury

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Tuning may not be an option everywhere...smog police gonna check ur emissions privilege, bro!
I actually heard about this happening in CA now! My best friend told me someone did this to a friend's car, and he ended up parting out the car, because it wasn't economically feasible to make it emissions complaint. He said the cops now carry around portable emissions checking equipment. Makes me want to reregister my TDI in a state that cares less about emissions standards.
 

pparks1

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Unfortunately, a Prius is still a Prius :(
I did all three of those things growing up. My mom would occasionally pick me up half way home, as she got off work at around the same time school let out, and I'd start walking rather than sitting around and waiting.

I don't really understand this new door-to-door drop-off service that parents are doing for their kids these days. :confused:

PS: git off mah lawn! ;)
In my case, my kids go to a charter school which is 10 miles from our house. The school offers no bussing solutions. We have to drop them off and pick them up. We do carpool with others on the pickup.
 

Fobulous

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Heres a real question.

If this does severely negatively effect our cars in mpg and performance, is the only recourse we have, within reason, class action?

I cant see individuals having the financial capital to fight vw in a one on one fight and come out ahead.

I'd be happy if they just left me alone and honored my warranty, but we all know the epa won't be satisfied with that solution.
Yes i am interested to know this as well. i would love to keep my car but i sure don't want them to decrease it's performance nor fuel economy..:confused: What they did is just so unforgiving..
 

nakkers

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Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs trigger massive recall, s...

Here's how it compares to coal, in PHEV / BEV (electrics):

  • The filthiest coal plants are about 4lbs NOx per MWh.
  • 4lbs / 1,000kwh = 1.812 grams per kwh
  • Electrics generally get ~3.0 miles per kwh
  • Coal is 39% US electric mix, and falling
  • I'm giving VW all kinds of room here, because US fleet coal is more like 2lbs / MWh, but let's be pro-VW and assume...4
  • from above, 1.812 / 3 (.39 percent coal) = .236 gr / mile electric, with coal in its supply
  • Tier 2 Bin 5 is .09gr/mile, with VW at 40X = 3.600 gr / mile
Hence, "Ob NOx ious".

This doesn't really answer my question. Or I'm just not getting it.

How does a 2003 TDI compare to a 2013 TDI in terms of real world emissions?

Are they compatible?

My point is, there are nearly half a million TDI running around but, there are other older spec vehicles on the road too.

Are these NOx emitting machine need to be grounded or are they just not performing to a very strict standard the Government imposed and the manufacturer couldn't achieve?


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TwinWagons

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RE: it's a no brainer. 2nd NOx CAT where the muffler is

The cheating from VW is more like when when the smart kid is embarrassed so bad they don't have the answer that they fudge it. It's a matter of chemistry. CAT chemistry isn't too difficult, it's just getting the catalyst to scale down. I did some research about this after the initial ***. I read the WVU report and it clearly shows the DPF is running when NOx emissions are peaking. I think the DPF cycle heats up the NOx CAT so much that it is outside of it's efficient catalyst range. I think if they substitute the muffler with an additional NOx CAT the problem may be solved. I need to program dashcomm to see if the muffler location is cool enough during DPF regen. The DPF is next to the engine on the passenger side so there might be enough tailpipe to dissipate the 1400F degree temperature at the NOx CAT. I don't know the mass of the platinum and aluminum oxide elements so I can't even guess the efficient catalyst temperature window. My gut tells me if they locate an additional NOx CAT where the muffler is, remove the muffler... have the 2nd NOx CAT serve double duty... it might work well enough so we can tune our vehicles to get higher performance and mpg while meeting the EPA NOx emissions limit

Hopefully they have a decent chemist at their disposal. It can be done. I think someone was embarrassed that they didn't calculate the catalyst temperature window and fudged the ECU to get the emissions done.

I'm starting to think it's a no brainer. 2nd NOx CAT where the muffler is and done.
I think they'll also need to add a DEF tank and pump to feed the reaction being catalyzed, but I completely agree that that there just doesn't seem to be any other way to go. And the good news is that it's a solution that shouldn't hurt economy or reliability, and might even help a little.
 

Jeta Life

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I did all three of those things growing up. My mom would occasionally pick me up half way home, as she got off work at around the same time school let out, and I'd start walking rather than sitting around and waiting.

I don't really understand this new door-to-door drop-off service that parents are doing for their kids these days. :confused:

PS: git off mah lawn! ;)
my kids are spoiled rotten by this as most Americans.

totally agree, I had to take long walks, yes long walks

gee, wonder whatever happened to that
 

Jeta Life

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2nd NOX CAT

The cheating from VW is more like when when the smart kid is embarrassed so bad they don't have the answer that they fudge it. It's a matter of chemistry. CAT chemistry isn't too difficult, it's just getting the catalyst to scale down. I did some research about this after the initial ***. I read the WVU report and it clearly shows the DPF is running when NOx emissions are peaking. I think the DPF cycle heats up the NOx CAT so much that it is outside of it's efficient catalyst range. I think if they substitute the muffler with an additional NOx CAT the problem may be solved. I need to program dashcomm to see if the muffler location is cool enough during DPF regen. The DPF is next to the engine on the passenger side so there might be enough tailpipe to dissipate the 1400F degree temperature at the NOx CAT. I don't know the mass of the platinum and aluminum oxide elements so I can't even guess the efficient catalyst temperature window. My gut tells me if they locate an additional NOx CAT where the muffler is, remove the muffler... have the 2nd NOx CAT serve double duty... it might work well enough so we can tune our vehicles to get higher performance and mpg while meeting the EPA NOx emissions limit

Hopefully they have a decent chemist at their disposal. It can be done. I think someone was embarrassed that they didn't calculate the catalyst temperature window and fudged the ECU to get the emissions done.

I'm starting to think it's a no brainer. 2nd NOx CAT where the muffler is and done.
I hope VW is reading this, excellent post. I'm sure their engineers are exhausting all options.

Never thought of that, there is room for it and sounds better than an expensive AdBlue retrofit.
 

tomo366

TDI Lifer, Member #68
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Kensington, Maryland USA
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Maybe this question was already answered but I don't have time to scroll through 305 pages ..lol

How is it that VW had to cheat to pass emissions to keep the performance? How is the Chevy Cruz, BMW 328D and MB E250 able to do it with same or better performance and same or better MPG's?
VW just got caught! by accident.....I believe all of them are dirty and we will see soon...
 

bhtooefr

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How does a 2003 TDI compare to a 2013 TDI in terms of real world emissions?
Nobody's tested a 2003 in the real world, I believe, but the worst case (an automatic) is at about 0.7 g/mi NOx, which is the best case for real-world for a 2009-2014 LNT-equipped TDI, and the worst case for those cars is 2.8 g/mi NOx.
 

HARd_NOx_LIFe

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On last night's Real Time w/ Bill Maher postshow on Youtube, comedian and car enthusiast Spike Feresten (Feresten is host of "Car Matchmaker" on Esquire TV) and Bill Maher comment on VW scandal, from timemark 4:50 to 6:40:

Real Time with Bill Maher: Overtime Overseas – September 25, 2015 (HBO)
https://youtu.be/Rqg2tSXZ6_Q
 

tariq

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FWIW, my AC just died recently. One of my best friend's mechanics suggested the pressure control valve, as verified by myturbodiesel. Replaced that, and WOW - the car's AC works better than what it was new. I know, off topic, but my 2 cents, so I just dealt with this 2 weeks ago.
I'm fairly certain that is also the issue with mine. We also have a Ford with a scroll compressor/ valve and this same fix solved the problem with it's AC.
 

Jeta Life

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So if this NOX deal is widespread (hopefully) VW is not alone

I'm sure VW is conducting its own tests on competitors

Amazes me how VW got attacked just when it became world's top automaker
 

ChemMan

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So if this NOX deal is widespread (hopefully) VW is not alone
I'm sure VW is conducting its own tests on competitors
Amazes me how VW got attacked just when it became world's top automaker
WVU study was released 18 months ago. VW and EPA were notified the same day. VW has been stalling and obfuscating the entire time. Nothing prevented them from coming clean last year.
 
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