Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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ChemMan

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Does the EPA even have the regulatory latitude to approve a partial fix ?
I don't think so. That being said technically 70 mg/mi (BIN5) isn't the legal limit per vehicle it is only the requirement for the fleet average. The max legal vehicle would be 200 mg/mi (BIN8). So I guess in theory if VW could meet that then they could buy credits from other manufacturers or release some ultra-clean (i.e. BIN2 or BIN3) to bring their average down.

The bad news is it would all buy guarantee a successful class action lawsuit because even corrected the vehicle wouldn't be the vehicle as sold. Still it is an option if they can't make 70 mg/mi. The EPA does have the latitude to allow manufacturers to carry deficits forward as needed.
 

Zut Alors!

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Just a question since people mention it from time to time:

There are people who are actually ashamed to be driving a TDi now? As in real emotional distress in the form of shame ashamed?

The vast majority of people don't even know the model of car they drive, much less what a TDi is, much less be able to say something about the current scandal other than it's a scandal. I owned a Prius for 3.5 years, and I got far more chuckles for owning a Prius than I do my GSW. Average Joe is exponentially more perplexed by the fact that I own a station wagon than what powers it.

Tl;DR: People are weird.
 

hybridkiller

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The bad news is it would all buy guarantee a successful class action lawsuit because even corrected the vehicle wouldn't be the vehicle as sold.
Unless you could demonstrate that you, as the purchaser/owner of the vehicle suffered some harm or personal loss as a result of purchasing that vehicle vs another one, that would likely not be a successful suit - class action or otherwise. Additional depreciation or decline in resale value? You would need to sell/trade the car and be able to prove that you didn't receive fair market value - specifically because of this issue. THEN file your lawsuit.

VW will make some token appeasement to owners and settle any CA suits out of court for just enough to make the lawyers happy, but TDI owners that are hoping for some sort of windfall from this are dreaming.
 
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Singuy

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Just a question since people mention it from time to time:

There are people who are actually ashamed to be driving a TDi now? As in real emotional distress in the form of shame ashamed?

The vast majority of people don't even know the model of car they drive, much less what a TDi is, much less be able to say something about the current scandal other than it's a scandal. I owned a Prius for 3.5 years, and I got far more chuckles for owning a Prius than I do my GSW. Average Joe is exponentially more perplexed by the fact that I own a station wagon than what powers it.

Tl;DR: People are weird.
LoL, emotionally distressed? Talking about a first world problem! The amount of NOX the TDIs are releasing is like 0.02% of the total footprint in the U.S. So no this is not keeping me up at night.
 

TDIpilot4u

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Just a question since people mention it from time to time:

There are people who are actually ashamed to be driving a TDi now? As in real emotional distress in the form of shame ashamed?

The vast majority of people don't even know the model of car they drive, much less what a TDi is, much less be able to say something about the current scandal other than it's a scandal. I owned a Prius for 3.5 years, and I got far more chuckles for owning a Prius than I do my GSW. Average Joe is exponentially more perplexed by the fact that I own a station wagon than what powers it.

Tl;DR: People are weird.
I don't feel ashamed at all, I still love the car. This doesn't mean I am not disappointed in all the news.
I just wish I would have bought a golf...my wife's little sister was complaining about all the stuff her friends have including a Jetta. I jokingly wanted to sell it then...
 

croppz

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Not ashamed at all. I love driving this car and just being in it. Everything is so much nicer compared to the 2 fords I had before. My second choice was a GLI but chose the TDI for the MPGs. GLI is so nice though. Though I do wish I got the manual, I really like the DSG but I guess I'll have to change my own fluid because I refuse to pay a dealer that kind of scratch to do it.
 

Mammoth

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Just as an academic exercise, the other day I went virtual car shopping to see what I might want if I were to replace my car with a non-TDI vehicle. Only then did I realize that there isn't anything else that does all the things this car does that I like. I always carry a bike when I travel, I don't want a CUV/SUV/wagen, and the other hatchback options just don't drive like this thing - or get 50-ish mpg.
I did the same thing, but looking for wagons. The best I could find were the BMW 328i wagon (depressing fuel economy) or the 328d wagon and the Volvo v60. None of them available with a manual transmission, so...there's absolutely nothing out there for me other than the car I have now.
 

Mammoth

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Just a question since people mention it from time to time:

There are people who are actually ashamed to be driving a TDi now? As in real emotional distress in the form of shame ashamed?

The vast majority of people don't even know the model of car they drive, much less what a TDi is, much less be able to say something about the current scandal other than it's a scandal. I owned a Prius for 3.5 years, and I got far more chuckles for owning a Prius than I do my GSW. Average Joe is exponentially more perplexed by the fact that I own a station wagon than what powers it.

Tl;DR: People are weird.
Yes. Both of my daughters have mild asthma. Asthma's a virtual epidemic in urban settings, and NOx is directly contributing to that. I live in a part of the country where the smog settles over the landscape and we have routine "spare the air" days. The past couple of days, I've seen a LOT fewer TDI's on the roads around here. I parked mine and have switched back to driving my MINI Cooper S or biking wherever I need to go. I love my TDI, but I have a responsibility to my kids and to my neighborhood to only drive it when I absolutely have to. If I can get by without using it at the moment, I will.

And yes, when I do drive it, I feel a bit ashamed to drive it. People who generally do things that they know are causing harm to others, but they do them anyway for selfish purposes, giving f-all to everybody, are generally considered to be ***holes. I don't want to be an ***hole. I have alternatives to transport, I'll take them when I can. I won't blame others cause I know some people don't have alternatives. IF that's weird, then I am ok with being weird.
 

pkhoury

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Just a question since people mention it from time to time:

There are people who are actually ashamed to be driving a TDi now? As in real emotional distress in the form of shame ashamed?

The vast majority of people don't even know the model of car they drive, much less what a TDi is, much less be able to say something about the current scandal other than it's a scandal. I owned a Prius for 3.5 years, and I got far more chuckles for owning a Prius than I do my GSW. Average Joe is exponentially more perplexed by the fact that I own a station wagon than what powers it.

Tl;DR: People are weird.
I'm not at all ashamed. I felt compelled to reply to this, since I owned a Prius myself from 2006-2010. People characterize my wagon as being a "dad car," until I tell them that my "dad car" can beat the **** out of their Hyundai or GM (and I do).

Now I will say, in the end, I was ashamed to own a Prius, for reasons I think should be fairly obvious. That, and the transmission died at 126K miles, with the dealer telling me that's not uncommon.
 

Diesl

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LoL, emotionally distressed? Talking about a first world problem! The amount of NOX the TDIs are releasing is like 0.02% of the total footprint in the U.S. So no this is not keeping me up at night.
More like 0.1% (500,000 TDIs * 1g/km *13,000 miles/year * 1.6miles/km = 10,000 tons, versus 15 million short tons = 13 million tons yearly US NO2 emissions).
 

pkhoury

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Not ashamed at all. I love driving this car and just being in it. Everything is so much nicer compared to the 2 fords I had before. My second choice was a GLI but chose the TDI for the MPGs. GLI is so nice though. Though I do wish I got the manual, I really like the DSG but I guess I'll have to change my own fluid because I refuse to pay a dealer that kind of scratch to do it.
Changing the DSG fluid is a pain in the @$$, but it's not that difficult. Last time I did it, I believe it took about 75 minutes, including drain, fill, and removing the air box and battery shelf.

And I feel the same way - I really wish I bought the standard transmission (but I didn't know how to drive standard then; now, I could do it in my sleep, without a tach).

What does the dealer charge to do the DSG fluid change anyways? I think it usually sets me back about $70-90 for all materials.
 

jollyGreenGiant

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At this moment, many, many non VW peeps have forgotten this story and only will remember briefly when a news item draws their attention and verbally attacks with bombs like spewing, belching, cheating over and over and the like.

Large masses of people will feel their full ancestral rage and pinch hard in their seats for half as long as they did the last time and forget to breath for a moment too, they might even bring it up at the waterdrooler tomorrow. But then they'll laugh at some redoinkulous Halloween costume and forget all about it and start slowly bottling up their rage until whatever the spinsters got ready drops and pops their carefully tailored trigger

It's a cycle, a system. Engineered.

Whatever. I love the things.
 
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Mark SF

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Yes. Both of my daughters have mild asthma. Asthma's a virtual epidemic in urban settings, and NOx is directly contributing to that. I live in a part of the country where the smog settles over the landscape and we have routine "spare the air" days. The past couple of days, I've seen a LOT fewer TDI's on the roads around here. I parked mine and have switched back to driving my MINI Cooper S or biking wherever I need to go. I love my TDI, but I have a responsibility to my kids and to my neighborhood to only drive it when I absolutely have to. If I can get by without using it at the moment, I will.

And yes, when I do drive it, I feel a bit ashamed to drive it. People who generally do things that they know are causing harm to others, but they do them anyway for selfish purposes, giving f-all to everybody, are generally considered to be ***holes. I don't want to be an ***hole. I have alternatives to transport, I'll take them when I can. I won't blame others cause I know some people don't have alternatives. IF that's weird, then I am ok with being weird.
The problem is that there is no correlation between childhood asthma rates, and NOX levels, and proximity to roads, or even whether they live in an urban setting.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/time_to_rethink_the_inner_city_asthma_epidemic

Asthma rates are up 60 percent since the 80s, while air quality is much better.
 
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JBell

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For somebody to not drive their car because they think it will put out less emissions than a gasser is high on something or misinformed. To park your TDI in favor of a Supercharged Mini Cooper is just silly and uncalled for. Trust me. You're not doing the environment any better.


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croppz

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Changing the DSG fluid is a pain in the @$$, but it's not that difficult. Last time I did it, I believe it took about 75 minutes, including drain, fill, and removing the air box and battery shelf.

And I feel the same way - I really wish I bought the standard transmission (but I didn't know how to drive standard then; now, I could do it in my sleep, without a tach).

What does the dealer charge to do the DSG fluid change anyways? I think it usually sets me back about $70-90 for all materials.

Dealers charge close to 400-500 for the DSG service I believe last time I read on here. I'd rather spend the 130 or so in materials and do it myself. I've done more complicated things. Ever change a clutch on a Pontiac grand am? Was ready to shoot myself lol. I have a feeling it's mainly a pain in the ass because of the process, but worth saving 300+ bucks.
 

NYC-TDI

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Here's my best guess as to what actually might have happened:

VP of Product Engineering: "Sir, we're having trouble getting the new common rail TDIs to meet US EPA standards."

CEO: "Keep working on it till they can."

VP of PE: "Yes sir."

Sometime several months later...

VP of PE: "Good news sir, my senior engineer just informed me we're good to go on the US EPA / TDI issue."

CEO: "Excellent."

In all likelyhood this was a decision made by a lower level exec hoping for a promotion and to play the hero for solving a major problem - not some top-down corporate strategy.
Possible but highly unlikely. Winterkorn liked to brag that he "knows every bolt" on VW cars. Someone other than the peon that did the actual programming had to know. They sure know now.
 

classen

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so I drive an old geezer of a TDI (2003 ALH). Just curious how the emissions from the ALH compare to that of the common rail engine involved in deiselgate.
 

CommonRail

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Oh, I don't think this kind of manipulation by automakers stops at diesels. I think manufacturers of gasoline vehicles could be guilty as well. I think the pressure to cheat emissions testing is widespread, given the public's demand for fuel-efficient vehicles. Any engine that burns fuel in "lean mode" or "fuel saving mode" is going to produce extra NOx as a byproduct. Count on other automakers getting caught as well.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when you have 100 million vehicles on US roads that are not EPA-compliant. The Gov't will have no choice but to rewrite the rules, lest they face popular uprising (try forcing that many vehicle owners to obey). VW is just the tip of a huge, ugly iceberg IMO.
 

CMac

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I'm a software engineer and I will guarantee that at least mid-level management knew what code was being written to pass the emission tests. And if upper level management didn't know it was because they deliberately didn't want to know. A "Oh you have fix for the diesel emissions that we've been working on for two years - don't tell me what it is and don't try to get it patented as it obviously isn't important." kind of ignoring reality that happens all too often at the VP level in engineering organizations.
And as far as an easy fix - don't count on one as the EPA has been refusing to certify the new 2016 diesel engines before this problem gained traction the last few days. I'm expecting a fairly big drop in mileage (5-6 mpg?) if they end up having to turn on the emission test parameters all the time for my Passat - which already has the SCR emission system. For the Golfs Jettas and Beetle which don't have SCR prior to 2015 models they may end up with a U.S. buy back as adding the tank did require some redesign of the rear floor pan etc to fit the tank, heater and lines for the urea in the 2015 models. Adding these as an aftermarket fix will be a big cost, maybe 6-10K?? depending on labor and how mad the dealerships are at VOA over this issue.
 

logdrum

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IBTL.... I have 2 2003 TDI's and was going to buy another used 06 BRM this week. This news has made me hesitant. I am wondering though who else cheated.
 

CommonRail

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IBTL.... I have 2 2003 TDI's and was going to buy another used 06 BRM this week. This news has made me hesitant. I am wondering though who else cheated.
Buy away. The values of those models are going to increase substantially. Anything pre-2009 is a-ok and doesn't fall under the current emissions standards.

I wish I could trade my 2014 DeathWagen in for a 2005-2006 model with decent mileage.
 

roostre

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How about 4. They negotiate a fine with the EPA, they fix the SCR cars (easy) and as part of the deal the EPA issues a one-time exemption for the LNT cars.
There is precedent for this, VW and the EPA have negotiated in the past according to this article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...on-emissions-almost-as-old-as-pollution-tests

On July 23, 1973, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency accused the automaker of installing defeat devices in cars it wanted to sell in the 1974 model year. VW then admitted it had sold 1973 model year cars with the devices, which consisted of temperature-sensing switches that cut out pollution controls at low temperatures.

The EPA suspected VW sold 25,000 vehicles with the cheating technology. Then-Attorney General Elliot Richardson took the company to court for violating the Clean Air Act. They settled with a $120,000 fine without admitting any wrongdoing.
 

Tom Servo

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so I drive an old geezer of a TDI (2003 ALH). Just curious how the emissions from the ALH compare to that of the common rail engine involved in deiselgate.
I'd be curious to see that information as well. I have an '05, BEW. Both our engines were sold before the rules got so tight.

I'm a software engineer and I will guarantee that at least mid-level management knew what code was being written to pass the emission tests. And if upper level management didn't know it was because they deliberately didn't want to know.
Everyone who is familiar with the management structure of VW in Germany seems to agree that Winterkorn was very much a hands-on kind of manager and a lot of mundane stuff went through him and others at the upper echelon of management. If that's true, I'd be shocked if he truly didn't know about this.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens when you have 100 million vehicles on US roads that are not EPA-compliant. The Gov't will have no choice but to rewrite the rules, lest they face popular uprising (try forcing that many vehicle owners to obey). VW is just the tip of a huge, ugly iceberg IMO.
Can you imagine the upheaval? It would be a nightmare for regulators. I don't think it would happen, though. There's just so much more global investment in meeting emissions goals for gasoline engines that I imagine the technology is easily capable of beating the US and EU limits.

Still, there's a small spiteful part of me that kind of wants GM or Toyota or someone to also found to be cheating just to lessen the blow a little.
 

ChemMan

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There is precedent for this, VW and the EPA have negotiated in the past according to this article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...on-emissions-almost-as-old-as-pollution-tests
Negotiated yes. Part of the settlement was that VW removed the low temperature switches thus restoring the vehicles to full emission compliance.

I can't recall a case where the EPA allowed vehicles that were unlawful under the clear air act to remain unfixed by the manufacturer. Now since recalls usually are not mandatory (at least not at the federal level) the loophole is the consumer can simply not have the repair completed but that is different than an official acceptance by the EPA to allow a non-compliant vehicle to remain unfixed by the manufacturer. Given that the Tier II emission standard was an act of Congress I am not sure the EPA could give VW a pass even if they wanted. So my guess is that either VW will bring the vehicles into compliance (at least partially to the legal maximum of 200 mg/mi) or they will be forced to rebuy and destroy them. Then again I guess there is a first time for everything.
 
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NYC-TDI

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Funny article at Jalopnik by Doug DeMuro posted today. I could hear the voice of Gilbert Gottfried speaking the words in this article:
Should I Still Consider Buying A Diesel-Powered Volkswagen?
http://jalopnik.com/should-i-still-consider-buying-a-diesel-powered-volkswa-1733017620
Hilarious and true. Don't understand why so many people stay loyal to VW even after having massive problems with their cars. I had enough of my Golf's problems and VW's horrible customer service last year. I got rid of it and have no regrets.

Yet still even after this scandal we have some siding with VW, actively making excuses for them even. Do you not realize when you're getting screwed?
 

LRTDI

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Now this is perfect. Watch until the end.

http://blog.4wheelonline.com/2015/09/21/video-parody-******s-reaction-to-vw-epa-scandal/

Everyone who is familiar with the management structure of VW in Germany seems to agree that Winterkorn was very much a hands-on kind of manager and a lot of mundane stuff went through him and others at the upper echelon of management. .
His approach was to centralize everything and as a result getting decisions and approval for something took forever. I hope that this will lead to decentralization and more regional power when it comes to decisions.
 
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jimbo1mcm

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Here is my VW solution: Deflect the problem. Start a campaign against Volvo marine diesels and how they are killing the whales.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Tl;DR: People are weird.
Yep, and blame social media. It also seems people of today are turning into, dare I say, pussy's and man cards are disappearing at an alarming rate. :eek:


Yes. Both of my daughters have mild asthma. Asthma's a virtual epidemic in urban settings, and NOx is directly contributing to that. I live in a part of the country where the smog settles over the landscape and we have routine "spare the air" days. The past couple of days, I've seen a LOT fewer TDI's on the roads around here. I parked mine and have switched back to driving my MINI Cooper S or biking wherever I need to go. I love my TDI, but I have a responsibility to my kids and to my neighborhood to only drive it when I absolutely have to. If I can get by without using it at the moment, I will.

And yes, when I do drive it, I feel a bit ashamed to drive it. People who generally do things that they know are causing harm to others, but they do them anyway for selfish purposes, giving f-all to everybody, are generally considered to be ***holes. I don't want to be an ***hole. I have alternatives to transport, I'll take them when I can. I won't blame others cause I know some people don't have alternatives. IF that's weird, then I am ok with being weird.
I rest my case. If you feel so strongly about it, stop driving, turn off all the gadgets and power in your house, and start burning tree's and coal, but oh crap, they're going to pollute too so your screwed either way. ;)

For somebody to not drive their car because they think it will put out less emissions than a gasser is high on something or misinformed. To park your TDI in favor of a Supercharged Mini Cooper is just silly and uncalled for. Trust me. You're not doing the environment any better.


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Just like all the others who are parking their cars or considering a Hybrid, ROFL.

Buy away. The values of those models are going to increase substantially. Anything pre-2009 is a-ok and doesn't fall under the current emissions standards.

I wish I could trade my 2014 DeathWagen in for a 2005-2006 model with decent mileage.
I have an 03 with the better ALH, drive to Seattle, give a me a few grand and your gross polluting Wagon, I'll give you mine. :D
 

gncc600

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I feel sorry for all the workers at the VW plant in Tennessee along with the suppliers and dealership employees. They will likely be facing massive layoffs. Lots of jobs will be lost due to the effects from this. Its easy to bash VW and some of you wanting them to crumble but its good for the country if they survive and come back strong.
 
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