Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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ibanix

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Correct. How many diesels are there compared to gasoline motors running? I think people are focusing on the wrong thing here.

The right thing is how absurd the EPA is getting. The requirements are going to drive the costs of Diesel engines through the roof. Which will increase the cost of transportation for just about everything we buy and consume.


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I can buy a new car. I can not buy a new lung.
 

JBell

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A new gasoline or diesel car? How about you tell me how bad emissions affect health from a gasoline car?


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JBell

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I'm feeling the same. I mean, we can all speculate all we want, but can we really proactively do something about it before VW announces the remedy? Not really. And... I'm not sifting through 50+ pages of more comments since I last posted in a hotel room. I had to finish up a 2500 mile road trip (of which the car performed beautifully, having been running about 12-14 hours at a time without having the engine shut off).

OH MY GOSH! Do you know how many lungs you killed with all of that NOx?!? /S


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pkhoury

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Correct. How many diesels are there compared to gasoline motors running? I think people are focusing on the wrong thing here.

The right thing is how absurd the EPA is getting. The requirements are going to drive the costs of Diesel engines through the roof. Which will increase the cost of transportation for just about everything we buy and consume.


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Yup, can you imagine if all the big rigs ran on gasoline instead of diesel? Especially in states like CA, where it's between $3.50 and $4.00 for a gallon of gas, only to get maybe 3mpg instead of the 5-8 that truckers normally get? Yup, everything will go up in price.
 

JBell

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Yup, can you imagine if all the big rigs ran on gasoline instead of diesel? Especially in states like CA, where it's between $3.50 and $4.00 for a gallon of gas, only to get maybe 3mpg instead of the 5-8 that truckers normally get? Yup, everything will go up in price.

The economy will collapse. Seriously.


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ibanix

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A new gasoline or diesel car? How about you tell me how bad emissions affect health from a gasoline car?
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VW didn't commit fraud on gasoline cars. (Well, not that we know.) They have for some of their diesel cars. Isn't that what we're talking about?

If you're trying to argue "oh it's not so bad, other cars also emit pollution", then you're having a different conversation, and not one I'm interested in having. The issue is VW breaking the law, deliberately. If they don't like the law - or we don't - it can be petitioned. (And I'm sure the automotive industry spend millions in lobbying!).

I have a significant other who has COPD. She's 32. The next 40+ years of her life she has to breathe in the air around us. On a good day she only has to use three different kind of medications. On bad days she can't walk up a single flight of stairs without a 5 minute break.

I don't particularly care if the pollution generator is a diesel engine, gasoline engine, natural gas, coal, or wood fire. VW's fraud doesn't mean that she *will* have worse health. But it's possible. And that's wrong.
 

TDIpilot4u

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Geez, just once you think these flamewars die out, someone dumps gasoline on the fire...no pun intended, if one. This thread is like a dog chasing its tail and I keep watching.
 

hybridkiller

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Good news is it's not herpes it's dried strawberry jam. That's where I swoop in with my $1000 and in a matter of a week turn it into a billion dollars. At least that's what the first half of wolf of Wall Street taught me.
Yeah, something like this is what savvy investors call a "buying opportunity".

I don't much care for cyclical stocks (those that are sensitive to macro economic trends) but if I did I'd be watching this very closely for a bottom.
 

pkhoury

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A new gasoline or diesel car? How about you tell me how bad emissions affect health from a gasoline car?


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Gasoline cars don't produce emissions - that's why it's safe to keep your gasser running in the garage in the morning to heat up the engine. Yup, no ill effects there.
 

JBell

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Sorry to hear that. Can you link her COPD to the VW issue? Probably not. Can you link it to emissions from vehicles? Probably not.


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pkhoury

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Geez, just once you think these flamewars die out, someone dumps gasoline on the fire...no pun intended, if one. This thread is like a dog chasing its tail and I keep watching.
More like a dog chasing his tail with velcro or zip tie attached. Brought my dog to work a few years back; my supervisor did that, and the dog was busy for about 15-20 minutes. Just like how this whole thread is going, only much longer than 15 minutes.
 

pkhoury

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Back to the original topic (without sifting through all 307 pages) - the Toureg TDI or Passat TDI isn't included in the original complaint, right? So ultimately, is it possible that inclusion of a urea-injecting device could rectify the emissions problems, so our cars don't have to cheat to attain emissions compliance?
 

bhtooefr

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The Passat with urea is included, 2015 vehicles with urea are included, the Touareg is not.
 

drywaller

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I thought I read somewhere in the 100 plus pages here that if the affected vehicle owners sell their vehicle that this is a loop hole of some sort? So does the emissions defect only apply to the original buyer of the vehicle? If one sells ones vehicle is it now exempt from all this?
 

pkhoury

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The Passat is included, the Touareg is not.
That's kinda what I thought, but couldn't remember. Was there any reason why the Touareg wasn't, besides the fact that it's an SUV, and all SUVs get crappy fuel economy/emissions output, relative to sedans/etc? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the auspices that both used urea injection, with the Passat also using a DPF...
 

Scott_DeWitt

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Gasoline cars don't produce emissions - that's why it's safe to keep your gasser running in the garage in the morning to heat up the engine. Yup, no ill effects there.
Actually gasoline engines produce more deadly emissions than diesel engines.
 

Scott_DeWitt

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Back to the original topic (without sifting through all 307 pages) - the Toureg TDI or Passat TDI isn't included in the original complaint, right? So ultimately, is it possible that inclusion of a urea-injecting device could rectify the emissions problems, so our cars don't have to cheat to attain emissions compliance?
The engine software was able to pass emissions so it might be entirely possible that a software only solution is available.
 

bhtooefr

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That's kinda what I thought, but couldn't remember. Was there any reason why the Touareg wasn't, besides the fact that it's an SUV, and all SUVs get crappy fuel economy/emissions output, relative to sedans/etc? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the auspices that both used urea injection, with the Passat also using a DPF...
Everything has a DPF nowadays.

And, the complaint was specifically about the 4-cylinders, and that's all VW admitted to the defeat device being present on. The EPA hadn't gotten around to testing the V6s, they're doing that now.
 

pkhoury

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The engine software was able to pass emissions so it might be entirely possible that a software only solution is available.
I guess another question would be how low of a reduction in emissions would be obtained from whatever fix VW deploys. Honestly, I think we all know that tests on a dyno can never simulate "real world" conditions. Particularly with my trip - I wonder what my emissions output was, carrying about maybe 800-1200 pounds in my car (excluding me), with a lot on the roof rack (substantial wind drag). And again, add to the fact that with my 2 German Shepherds in the car (some areas being in the high 90s), AC was running full blast, even at refulling - so I think the engine was on the first time for about 13 hours without being turned off.
 

Sooner

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The Passat with urea is included, 2015 vehicles with urea are included, the Touareg is not.
We have not seen test results of the 2015 engine redesign. It may very well be close to legal or adjustable. VW likely had a strategy despite the cheat. It may loose hp/torque in doing so and more urea use. I am surprised the MB 2.1 diesel has 369 ft-lb of torque and is claimed to meet standard. We will know soon enough.
 
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pkhoury

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Everything has a DPF nowadays.

And, the complaint was specifically about the 4-cylinders, and that's all VW admitted to the defeat device being present on. The EPA hadn't gotten around to testing the V6s, they're doing that now.
So forgive my ignorance, but with a DPF capturing all the unburned particulate, what's the purpose of the urea at that point? Just to reduce NOx? Now I wonder if bigger engines have a DPF (big as in diesel locomotive big) or urea-injection systems.
 

drywaller

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VW didn't commit fraud on gasoline cars. (Well, not that we know.) They have for some of their diesel cars. Isn't that what we're talking about?
If you're trying to argue "oh it's not so bad, other cars also emit pollution", then you're having a different conversation, and not one I'm interested in having. The issue is VW breaking the law, deliberately. If they don't like the law - or we don't - it can be petitioned. (And I'm sure the automotive industry spend millions in lobbying!).
I have a significant other who has COPD. She's 32. The next 40+ years of her life she has to breathe in the air around us. On a good day she only has to use three different kind of medications. On bad days she can't walk up a single flight of stairs without a 5 minute break.
I don't particularly care if the pollution generator is a diesel engine, gasoline engine, natural gas, coal, or wood fire. VW's fraud doesn't mean that she *will* have worse health. But it's possible. And that's wrong.
Ummm I get why your upset....but have you read your SIG line lately? Can you say "the pot calling the kettle black"?
 

Singuy

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How about 4. They negotiate a fine with the EPA, they fix the SCR cars (easy) and as part of the deal the EPA issues a one-time exemption for the LNT cars.
Of course until we know for sure, a stock purchase may be premature.
Why would the EPA allow that? Maybe if this was 3 months into production or maybe 1 year, but 7 years worth of cars? EPA should just shut down if they exempt chronic cheaters.
 

JohnBlutarsky

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Quoted for being very helpful and informative. This mini-tutorial should be included in every news article on this story.

That is correct. Lean conditions mean lower fuel use, so lower hydrocarbon use (HC), so lower carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide (CO, CO2) output. But they also mean more "free oxygen" was leftover from the combustion process, and that free oxygen in high temperatures found in a combustion chamber will bond to the nitrogen that is also found in the intake air charge, so that becomes NOx. EGR is designed to feed in some oxygen-depleted air from the exhaust side into the air inlet side, so that there is less free oxygen left for NOx to form, in hopes that more of it gets used to actually burn the fuel instead.

In a perfect engine: HC (fuel) and N+O2 (air) combine to make CO, CO2, H20, and N. All the oxygen would be used to burn the fuel, and the nitrogen in the air, normally just an inert gas, passes right through.

But there is no such thing as a perfect engine. And since diesels, by design, naturally run VERY lean, far leaner than a gasoline engine can under the same circumstances, there is ALWAYS an issue with free oxygen molecules in the combustion chamber. Diesels do not run at a fixed lambda with regards to air/fuel mixture like a gasoline engine generally does. They are always under a varying mix. So it is hard to control NOx.

What sucks is, and nobody seems to want to point this out (the media certainly doesn't), is that despite the way higher than ideal NOx output of the engines in question, the other pollutants, HC, CO, CO2, etc., are far LOWER than the standards... in some cases, in the single percentiles. Which is why they get such great fuel economy. It also sucks that diesels seem to be forced into NOx standards the same as gasoline engines, yet gasoline engines are note expected to even come close to the CO emissions (fuel economy) that the diesels can get so easily. It is a double standard, and like it or not, that standard sucks. However, I do feel it is shady that any manufacturer, ESPECIALLY one of the largest on the planet AND one that has championed diesel technology more than any other, would "cheat" and do what they did.

So in conclusion of this post, yes it is most certainly possible than a 15 MPG pig of an SUV can emit far less NOx than a 50 MPG diesel. And if NOx is the ONLY data point you are looking at, then yes that 15 MPG pig can be "cleaner" and perfectly legit in the eyes of the EPA. I do not agree with this, since it seems to push for higher fuel use overall. It reminds me of low-flow toilets. Sure, they don't use as much water per flush, but if you have to flush them three times to make them do their job.... ????
 

bhtooefr

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So forgive my ignorance, but with a DPF capturing all the unburned particulate, what's the purpose of the urea at that point? Just to reduce NOx? Now I wonder if bigger engines have a DPF (big as in diesel locomotive big) or urea-injection systems.
The DPF is to trap particulate, the urea is to convert NOx into N2, H2O, and CO2.

And, locomotives are using DPFs, and I believe urea SCRs are coming out for them.
 
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