Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

Status
Not open for further replies.

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
TwinWagons: 5 million of the 11 million are Volkswagen Passenger Cars-branded.

The other 6 million are either Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Audi, Skoda, or SEAT, and VW is still responsible for all of those.

Basically, this is distinguishing between Volkswagen-the-company and Volkswagen-the-brands.
 

TDIpilot4u

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
I just cannot believe what I am hearing here.....people are just giving there cars away!
Talk about knee jerk reactions! LOL I wonder if the losses from people dumping there cars will be figured into the loss figures?

By the sounds of what some are upgrading to, they obviously have money to burn. I wonder if some of the recalls from other manufacturers that could actually kill you (in reality, not statistically) produced the same reactions. :confused:
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
Retrofitting the cars to use adblue may be quite feasible. It's a solution that sounds like it would cost something around $7 billion, which is what VW set aside. Reflashing the cars would cost a tiny fraction of that and buying them back would cost a lot more. They say 5 million of the 11 million cars are involved. Anything that already has an adblue system or was sold in a country that doesn't care much about emissions may have been subtracted from the 11 million. $1,200 per car seems kind of low to retrofit a system that would have added $500 to the cost of the car if put in at the time the car was manufactured, but that $500 may be the increase in retail price, not cost.
My guess would be some attempt to do it with a reflash, but that's it. Since this is not a safety issue per se, I doubt total retroactive compliance will be expected. A reasonable attempt to mitigate the issue, yes, but essentially rebuilding half a million cars probably ain't gonna happen and won't be mandated.

The bigger issue is probably trying to repair the loss of trust, both with regulators and owners, as well as potential future buyers - THAT'S where the money will be spent.
 
Last edited:

ChemMan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Location
Earth
TDI
2011 Volkswagen Jetta SportWagen TDI
My guess would be some attempt to do it with a reflash, but that's it. Since this is not a safety issue per se, I doubt total retroactive compliance will be expected. A reasonable attempt to mitigate the issue, yes, but essentially rebuilding half a million cars probably ain't gonna happen and won't be mandated.

The bigger issue is probably trying to repair the loss of trust, both with regulators and owners, as well as potential future buyers - THAT'S where the money will be spent.
VW made the EPA look like grossly incompetent chumps. They not only cheated, they did it for eight years and the EPA never caught on. You really think the EPA isn't going to force VW to comply to the exact spec of the law (i.e. 7.000001 mg/mi = fail)? Really? I guess you have never had to work with regulators. For people like that, the only headline worse than "EPA fails to catch vehicles polluting at 40x legal limit" is "Powerless EPA unable to keep polluting vehicles off the road." or maybe "If EPA can't keep polluting vehicles off the road what good are they?"
 
Last edited:

DriverJon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Location
Irvine, CA
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI, 6M
Freaking out? On here? No way! :p

Should be interesting to see what happens.


Yeah, just when you think you've got enough ammo stockpiled for the zombie apocalypse, then this happens...
It all started with a virus, that spread thru the nations diesel supply undetected... All TDI cars were infected, but only when they were abandonded did they awake, and begin to walk.... seeking their former masters....
 

bmali98

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Location
Dunsford Ontario
TDI
O4 golf pd auto
Breaking news

Anybody got any good bumper sticker ideas yet on this? If I don't find any better ideas, I'm going to have "HARD NOx LIFE" cut at the flea market after work tomorrow. Make light of the situation even though I don't drive an affected car. Maybe make the "I" blue.... I kinda don't want to use a members screen name tho but if **** hits the fan I will pull the seniority card newbie.:p unless a vet has a prob I guess..:D


Any other good ones......?




Edit: a bumper sticker for the window dur.
 
Last edited:

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
Anybody got any good bumper sticker ideas yet on this? If I don't find any better ideas, I'm going to have "HARD NOx LIFE" cut at the flea market after work tomorrow. Make light of the situation even though I don't drive an affected car. Maybe make the "I" blue.... I kinda don't want to use a members screen name tho but if **** hits the fan I will pull the seniority card newbie.:p

Any other good ones......?


Edit: a bumper sticker for the window dur.
How bout, "YOU CAN'T GET GOOD MILEAGE UNTIL YOU CRACK A FEW NOx"?
 

SageBrush

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
CO
TDI
None
VW made the EPA look like grossly incompetent chumps. They not only cheated, they did it for eight years and the EPA never caught on. You really think the EPA isn't going to force VW to comply to the exact spec of the law (i.e. 7.000001 mg/mi = fail)? Really? I guess you have never had to work with regulators. For people like that, the only headline worse than "EPA fails to catch vehicles polluting at 40x legal limit" is "Powerless EPA unable to keep polluting vehicles off the road." or maybe "If EPA can't keep polluting vehicles off the road what good are they?"
Does the EPA even have the regulatory latitude to approve a partial fix ?
 
Last edited:

nesdon

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Location
LA
TDI
2013 JSW, 2009 & 1998 Jetta Sedans
Geez this thread is impossible. Clear points of truth are so hard to pin down.

Sagebrush, I was told, 30 years ago in a GM smog certification program, that the testing drive cycle was compressed to save time, and so the accelerations and decelerations were exaggerated. I've never understood how a 7l could meet the gm/mile specs of a 2l and assumed it might be a factor. The consumer test regimes and laws have certainly changed a bunch in that time, and he could have been off as well.

Chem man, in that same training (of course a factory training program is likely pretty biased) I understood that NOx was highly reactive and if the concentrations and atmospheric conditions were not right, it would not create significant problems. It also started my interest in diesels as he also said that the main pollutant from a diesel was particulate that settled and was washed out of the atmoshere fairly rapidly. Of course we know more now about the health impact of particulates, and thought the advent of DPFS had largely solved that.
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
I could see them offering current owners the choice of either a) a check for a few grand to offset the "diesel premium" they paid for the car or b) trade-in value toward a new car equivalent to the dealer retail USED book value (IOW substantially more than book trade-in value).

Most people would probably just pocket the cash (I would). The whole thing would make for some fairly happy owners at a fraction of the cost of a buyback or mechanical retrofit.
 
Last edited:

RRYS

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Location
Mansfield, MA
TDI
2009 Jetta, 2009 Touareg
My guess: Seems VW will need to flash the software to the same version that was used in the EPA tests. Easy to do. Yes this may trim the mileage and power a bit. The crazy NOx catalyst design requires cycling from the normal lean burn to rich burn to reduce NOx to N2 and O2, but it takes extra fuel to go rich more often. I'll guess this will be a requirement to get a registration/sticker as otherwise owners would just ignore the recall. I would assume VW owners would be offered a settlement as this was effectively fraud and consumers should be reimbursed at least the extra cost of fuel. I wouldn't sell the diesel -its still a great car. VW did a lot right with the diesel technology. Of all the important emissions NOx is only one . NOx does produce acid gas and smog, however the VW does do pretty well with soot, CO, unburned hydrocarbons, and even CO2 is low due to good mileage. SOx (sister to NOx) is low as fuel is only 15 ppm Sulfur. It is still very clean and very efficient and riding a bike behind a TDI is a pleasure compared to most larger trucks.
 

SageBrush

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
CO
TDI
None
Sagebrush, I was told, 30 years ago in a GM smog certification program, that the testing drive cycle was compressed to save time, and so the accelerations and decelerations were exaggerated. I've never understood how a 7l could meet the gm/mile specs of a 2l and assumed it might be a factor. The consumer test regimes and laws have certainly changed a bunch in that time, and he could have been off as well.
Yep, he was mistaken.

If you are curious, the details are available for light reading ;)
The protocol states the speed changes, and over how many seconds they must occur. I've read that it takes 'drivers' quite a while to gain the experience required to follow the protocol.

You can also get a semi-quant feel for the accelerations required by looking at the graphs, one of which is shown in the first post of this thread. You mentioned earlier you know some physics so I'll presume you can do the conversion to power requirements if interested -- or drop me a PM and I'll provide the equations.
 
Last edited:

Revpeach

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
Monticello, IA
TDI
2012 Jetta
I think VW should come out with a kit that would remove the two rear wheels and replace them with a single mounted monster tire. The car would now be a motorcycle and we could get rid of a lot of emission stuff. We would end up with a really fuel efficient, ugly ride.
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
I think VW should come out with a kit that would remove the two rear wheels and replace them with a single mounted monster tire. The car would now be a motorcycle and we could get rid of a lot of emission stuff. We would end up with a really fuel efficient, ugly ride.
As long as it's not one wheel in the front...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8
 

Lodi781

Active member
Joined
May 21, 2014
Location
CT
TDI
2014 Golf TDI 4 dr
I could see them offering current owners the choice of either a) a check for a few grand to offset the "diesel premium" they paid for the car or b) trade-in value toward a new car equivalent to the dealer retail USED book value (IOW substantially more than book trade-in value).

Most people would probably just pocket the cash (I would). The whole thing would make for some fairly happy owners at a fraction of the cost of a buyback or mechanical retrofit.

For me, the only way they would get me back in a VW would be to buy back my car, and offer cash towards a new one. But i would be perfectly happy with a buy back and be done with it.
 

Jack Diesel

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Location
New Jersey
TDI
2011 VW Jetta
Anybody got any good bumper sticker ideas yet on this? If I don't find any better ideas, I'm going to have "HARD NOx LIFE" cut at the flea market after work tomorrow. Make light of the situation even though I don't drive an affected car. Maybe make the "I" blue.... I kinda don't want to use a members screen name tho but if **** hits the fan I will pull the seniority card newbie.:p unless a vet has a prob I guess..:D





Any other good ones......?









Edit: a bumper sticker for the window dur.

All in for a Hard NOx Life sticker.

Got a Malone Stage 2 '11 Jetta and getting excellent fuel mileage
 

bmali98

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Location
Dunsford Ontario
TDI
O4 golf pd auto
For me, the only way they would get me back in a VW would be to buy back my car, and offer cash towards a new one. But i would be perfectly happy with a buy back and be done with it.
That sux. Nice knowing you as a vw tdi fan. Not even a vw fan now eh...?




So far " HARD NOx LIFE" is a winner. Some vendor has gotta do this...
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
Just as an academic exercise, the other day I went virtual car shopping to see what I might want if I were to replace my car with a non-TDI vehicle. Only then did I realize that there isn't anything else that does all the things this car does that I like. I always carry a bike when I travel, I don't want a CUV/SUV/wagen, and the other hatchback options just don't drive like this thing - or get 50-ish mpg.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
Anybody got any good bumper sticker ideas yet on this? If I don't find any better ideas, I'm going to have "HARD NOx LIFE" cut at the flea market after work tomorrow. Make light of the situation even though I don't drive an affected car. Maybe make the "I" blue.... I kinda don't want to use a members screen name tho but if **** hits the fan I will pull the seniority card newbie.:p unless a vet has a prob I guess..:D
Any other good ones......?
Edit: a bumper sticker for the window dur.
Keep Back, Hard NOx Ahead.
 

Lodi781

Active member
Joined
May 21, 2014
Location
CT
TDI
2014 Golf TDI 4 dr
That sux. Nice knowing you as a vw tdi fan. Not even a vw fan now eh...?
So far " HARD NOx LIFE" is a winner. Some vendor has gotta do this...

It was my first VW. I bought it specifically because of the mileage and power. I do love the car, but not sure VW has impressed me over all to give them a second chance. But, who knows. Never say never.
 

drywaller

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Location
USA
TDI
VDUBS
I just heard of this. Sad day for vdub owners. How would this affect a sale from a California is registered vehicle to an Oregon. Resident? I had a sale line up on our wagon as we want to purchase a toureg. The would be buyer said he wants to hold off till the smoke clears.
Any thoughts?
 

amy1000

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Location
Doylestown PA
TDI
2010 jetta
On some previous posts in this thread, people were referring to something that sounded like a software memory card...sounded like you could comply with the recall and after you got it done, you could insert the card and get the original programming back. Can someone direct me to some info on that.
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
It was my first VW. I bought it specifically because of the mileage and power. I do love the car, but not sure VW has impressed me over all to give them a second chance. But, who knows. Never say never.
I get that you've lost faith, but if I were you I would relax and see how this unfolds. Despite all this talk about VW "making us whole", I doubt they're going to offer anything that'll leave you any better off than just selling your car outright and negotiating a good price on a new one - which is always an option if this heartbreak is too much for you. Just don't hold your breath that VW is going to offer anything more than maybe a generous trade-in deal. All this talk about straight up buybacks, especially at anything more than used book value, is wishful thinking.
 

totitan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
I don't get the difference here. If you're paying sticker for the new one, you've got instant negative equity (beyond just driving any new car off the lot) because you're paying somewhat more than street price for it.
Because the payoff on the '12 JSW tdi is $15,897 but current market value is only $13,500. I suspect the value of the JSW will continue to drop rapidly, so if I can convince a dealer to give me 16K for it and come home with a '16 GSW tsi with minimal change in the payment I'll do it
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
I just heard of this. Sad day for vdub owners. How would this affect a sale from a California is registered vehicle to an Oregon. Resident? I had a sale line up on our wagon as we want to purchase a toureg. The would be buyer said he wants to hold off till the smoke clears.
Any thoughts?
Relax and wait. The smoke will clear. People who loved these cars 2 weeks ago will still love them in 2 months.
 

bmali98

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Location
Dunsford Ontario
TDI
O4 golf pd auto
It was my first VW. I bought it specifically because of the mileage and power. I do love the car, but not sure VW has impressed me over all to give them a second chance. But, who knows. Never say never.
I myself don't blame them for what they did entirely. The would have spent millions if not billions developing a new motor that can't meet the standards of North America and maybe others.

Engineer: you want it to pass. Here you go boss. In all its 100hp 20mpg glory....
Management : fine, whatever. I'm fired if we don't get this f'ing thing In a Jetta so I'm gonna have someone mess around so the big cheese thinks we're doing something.......

It's real life problems not the big corporate greed/ deception many think it is. I Imo.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top