Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

Status
Not open for further replies.

ChemMan

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Location
Earth
TDI
2011 Volkswagen Jetta SportWagen TDI
I understand that VW would be counseled to not admit fault publicly. But if you read the bulk of media reports regarding this matter you are led to believe that VW has openly admitted to intentional cheating. But clearly they have not. Only the EPA has claimed that VW admitted to cheating, but they have failed to back up this claim with any real proof, like the name of the individual at VW who made the admission. One again, the media has created a narrative that gets them advertising dollars and they are now running around trying to find “facts” that support that narrative.

And where's the "mountains of evidence?" The single ICCT report? What else is there? Has anyone actually seen the offending code? Has anyone else reproduced the ICCT results with on-road PEMS testing? Nope. I'm ready to work through the "mountains of evidence" if someone can tell me where it is.
It is an ongoing investigation. The EPA isn't going to release evidence during an ongoing investigation. Come on that is a ridiculous requirement. If VW didn't admit fault and the EPA claimed they did, they would be suing the EPA right now and stating they have never used defeat devices. They would be going on their air stating their vehicles pass emission requirements and defending the company's reputation. They would be seeking to have the stop sale order lifted and demand the EPA issue COC for 2016 models are required by law. They would be showing their own testing reports that the vehicle are compliant.

Yet none of that has happened, and they have apologized to the public. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
 
Last edited:

Ludicrous Speed TDI CUP

Veteran Member
Joined
May 4, 2012
Location
Northern IN
TDI
2010 TDI Cup, 06 Jetta TDI
Several people on here got angry when I mentioned I'd taken all the emmissions stuff off my 2010 TDI Cup..... which has been flawless for the last 70,000mi by the way with Stage2 tune and no DPF/Cats/EGR.
Run BioDiesel in it with RotellaT6.

The parts per "Billion" The stock cars are of for "CA" Emmissions is a joke... It's all to get a jab at VW for being ahead of the curve....
This entire thing is a Joke.....

It'll blow over... My TDI isn't going anywhere near a dealer or back to the factory....

Don't be the sheep... It's not what it seems.
~Scott
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...

I appreciate you taking the time to write.
Volkswagen of America takes what the government has said very seriously and we are fully cooperating with the responsible agencies. Volkswagen has also ordered an external investigation of this matter.
The trust of our customers and the public is and continues to be our most important asset. We at Volkswagen will do everything that must be done in order to re-establish the trust that so many people have placed in us, and we will do everything necessary in order to reverse the damage this has caused. This matter has first priority for the entire Board of Management.
If you can provide the following information, we can begin the process to look into your request to buy back your Jetta TDI:
• Your Jetta’s current mileage
• Your current mailing address
• Which state you originally purchased your Jetta in
• Any warranty related repairs have been performed on your Jetta

Your ownership is important to us and I'm very sorry that this experience has caused you to feel differently about VW. We are working as quickly as we can to find a remedy and will be alerting drivers as soon as this is available.

Sincerely,



Ashley M.
Customer CARE Advocate
Assuming the "M." in "Ashley M." doesn't stand for "Madison" and this is for real,
then let me interpret that for you.

It means "we'll consider accepting your car as trade-in on a new VW".

At "fair" market value. Which may not be much at the moment.

Then you get to have a brand-new VW, and assuming the trade-in covers any existing loan you have on it, you get to be on the hook for another 36+ months of payments, starting from zero.

That can hardly be a win-win solution for you but VW gets to sell another car in tough times. But if it makes you feel any better... who am I to interfere? :rolleyes:
 

SageBrush

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
CO
TDI
None
I understand that VW would be counseled to not admit fault publicly. But if you read the bulk of media reports regarding this matter you are led to believe that VW has openly admitted to intentional cheating. But clearly they have not. Only the EPA has claimed that VW admitted to cheating, but they have failed to back up this claim with any real proof, like the name of the individual at VW who made the admission. One again, the media has created a narrative that gets them advertising dollars and they are now running around trying to find “facts” that support that narrative.

And where's the "mountains of evidence?" The single ICCT report? What else is there? Has anyone actually seen the offending code? Has anyone else reproduced the ICCT results with on-road PEMS testing? Nope. I'm ready to work through the "mountains of evidence" if someone can tell me where it is.
The list of links in the first post should be read first.

Consider the reverse though: say this is all just one great misunderstanding. Don't you think VW would have said so by now ? Why instead fire the CEO and admit at the highest levels to a failure of ethics ? The company is heading for BK, but you think they are just waiting for the right time to display the disgruntled worker ?

addendum: I see now that ChemMan beat me to it. Cross my heart, we are not the same person. As evidence, note that he writes much better than I do.
 
Last edited:

immortalmk2

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Location
United States
TDI
2012 VW Golf TDI Manual w/Tech (His), 2013 VW Golf TDI DSG w/Tech (Hers)
It is an ongoing investigation. The EPA isn't going to release evidence during an ongoing investigation. Come on that is a ridiculous requirement. If VW didn't admit fault and the EPA claimed they did, they would be suing the EPA right now and stating they have never used defeat devices. They would be going on their air stating their vehicles pass emission requirements and defending the company's reputation. They would be seeking to have the stop sale order lifted and demand the EPA issue COC for 2016 models are required by law.

Yet none of that has happened, and they have apologized to the public. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
Then the media should be reporting that the EPA alleges that VW has admitted cheating but no evidence of the admission has yet been released because it's an ongoing investigation. This is a fact. Instead, the media is reporting that VW has admitted to intentional cheating, and this is simply not true. See the difference?
 

ray96disco

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagen
At least VW hasn't poisoned American pristine streams & rivers with toxic mine waste.
Well said.

I’ve been pleased with the mileage my German foot locker gets and will be sorely disappointed if that drops, and you know it will. Besides, I never got the mileage some people around here claim. Wonder what I did wrong? I’ve had a good chuckle seeing people comment “shame on VW for cheating” and then wondering what the effects will be on their DPF deletes, straight pipes and tuner chips.

I’m concerned about the effect of this on resale value but the little guy’s been getting screwed over since time began. This is nothing new. And the current generation running the big banks and corporations worldwide make the financiers and industrialists of the Gilded Age look like pikers, so you know we’re not getting any tangible reimbursement for losses. Just take it in the shorts and move on.

[FONT=&quot]Anyway, there’s no information available to ascertain the real effects of this and it seems pointless to run around playing Chicken Little, so I’ll just keep running around in my cool little car spewing pollutants 40 x the legal limit of [FONT=&quot]next to nothing [/FONT]and add that to my list of sins.[/FONT]
 

jimbo1mcm

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Location
CT USA
TDI
2015 SEL TDI PREMIUM Blue 2015 SEL TDI PREMIUM's Silver and Blue
Your car is now a comedian!!

Because:

1. When you want to trade it in, the dealer laughs.

2. When you want to sell it, everyone laughs.

3. When people see the TDI badge, they laugh.

People: If you don't think the value of your vehicle has dropped into the basement you are deluding yourself. We are driving vehicles that have no resale or trade in value anymore.

Still think everything will be okay if they reflash the ECU?
 

Mammoth

Active member
Joined
Sep 15, 2012
Location
Menlo Park, CA
TDI
2013 JSW TDI 6MT
http://media.vw.com/release/1076/

So again, this seems to imply that it's only the EA189 that's affected. I know the 2015 Golfs, etc. (with the EA 288 engine) are listed as part of the investigation, but VW seems to only be admitting a problem with the EA 189 engines.
Yeah, so the numbers they are now citing are not 11M cars worldwide, but 5M. Of course...difficult to believe them now, isn't it ;)
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
I think a lot of people have this simplistic idea that sometime back in 2008 some senior VW exec met with the CEO to have him personally approve the dubious ECU programming, and therefore CEO and other senior execs must have known about it.

Here's a news flash - massive global corporations don't work that way. The CEO doesn't review and sign off on every single engineering detail of the products. He hires and fires OTHER people who do that.

Where the CEO (and to some extent senior mgmt) IS culpable, however indirectly, is fostering an internal corporate culture which made this kind of grievous nonsense possible and likely.

It is unrealistic to expect a clear "yes WE lied" or "no WE didn't" from VW as a corporate entity - it's just not that simple. Winterkorn said "We have totally screwed up" and "I'm endlessly sorry..." That's about as much clarity as you're likely to get.

A bunch of people at VW will be canned, EPA will get their pound of flesh (as they should), some half-baked software revision will be implemented (which probably won't entirely, if at all, fix the issue), and current affected owners will be appeased with some combination of generous trade-in offers and complementary service vouchers.

Life will go on, VW will continue to sell a few cars in the US, and the "all new" 2017 VW TDIs will start at $29,999. (too much damage to global prestige - or what's left of it - to not continue to offer them in the US market, even at zero profit)
 
Last edited:

bairdc3

Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Location
Sacramento
TDI
2013 B7 Passat TDI SE
Because:

1. When you want to trade it in, the dealer laughs.

2. When you want to sell it, everyone laughs.

3. When people see the TDI badge, they laugh.

People: If you don't think the value of your vehicle has dropped into the basement you are deluding yourself. We are driving vehicles that have no resale or trade in value anymore.

Still think everything will be okay if they reflash the ECU?



Agreed, I live in California and already had to do a smog check on my 2 year old car when all other cars have 5 years before they do their first smog check. CARB will be FOREVER after these cars, and while I may get a fix and it works for 5 years more, after that it will be impossible to get it to pass smog. They will just make it impossible. So your right the resale value in CA will be ZERO! Guess I will have to find a state the does not do smog and sell it on e-bay.
 

shuswap

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Location
British Columbia
TDI
05 Golf TDI BEW auto
Because:

1. When you want to trade it in, the dealer laughs.

2. When you want to sell it, everyone laughs.

3. When people see the TDI badge, they laugh.

People: If you don't think the value of your vehicle has dropped into the basement you are deluding yourself. We are driving vehicles that have no resale or trade in value anymore.

Still think everything will be okay if they reflash the ECU?
If any one of the hand-wringing types on here want to sell me their almost new wagon, ( no sunroof, manual preferred) at the current market's low low value, then PM me. After all you'll be wringing the difference in value out of the manufacturer, so who cares how low we set the price?
I'm pretty sure the sky has not fallen over this bag of snakes that VW has gotten themselves in to.
 

SageBrush

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
CO
TDI
None
The CEO doesn't review and sign off on every single engineering detail of the products.
Quite the little detail.

Now I am curious: if a CEO is not involved in deciding to embark on a world wide fraud, what exactly are they asked about ?

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sorry, the reverse here is true. Thousands of VW employees were part of the 'clean diesel' campaign. It took meticulous planning and a large scale enterprise to run this deception for *years.* Think of all the engineers who gave talks to other engineers and at scientific conferences. Some were involved, most were hoodwinked by a very sophisticated disinformation network. Maybe it is not too hard to BS an EPA clerk but VW had to convince, within some degree of doubt, an entire engineering community.

That takes a lot of work, planning, expertise, resources, money, and widespread high level involvement.
 
Last edited:

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Yeah, so the numbers they are now citing are not 11M cars worldwide, but 5M. Of course...difficult to believe them now, isn't it ;)
5 million Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand products.

Keep in mind that Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Audi, Skoda, and SEAT - and Skoda and SEAT are the budget volume brands below VW and Audi - also used the EA189, and are not Volkswagen Passenger Cars.
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
Quite the little detail.
Now I am curious: if a CEO is not involved in deciding to embark on a world wide fraud, what exactly are they asked about ?
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
They're asked big-picture questions about sales growth, bottom line profits, marketing strategies, customer demographics, product placement, etc. - you know, CEO stuff...

You don't seriously not understand this, do you?
 

troyg54

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Lolo, MT
TDI
Golf, 2000, Black
I've read several articles suggesting the VW admitted to defeat devices being installed. Does anyone have a credible source as to this actual admission?

The only thing I think they could be referring to is this statement, but to me it's not so much an admission of guilt as it is a statement of we'll cooperate with the investigations.

I understand there's quite a bit of evidence that suggests real world Nox emissions are quite a bit higher, but my understanding of the tier 2 requirements is they really only apply on the test bed.

"I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers and the public," said Volkswagen CEO, Martin WinterKorn. "We will cooperate fully with the responsible agencies, with transparency and urgency, to clearly, openly, and completely establish all of the facts of this case. Volkswagen has ordered an external investigation of this matter. We do not and will not tolerate violations of any kind of our internal rules or of the law. The trust of our customers and the public is and continues to be our most important asset. We at Volkswagen will do everything that must be done in order to re-establish the trust that so many people have placed in us, and we will do everything necessary in order to reverse the damage this has caused."
 

shovelhd

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Location
Western MA
TDI
2014 JSW
It's not a JSW the new name Golf Sportwagon. They redesign the rear suspension like the MkVI has. They could of put the tank were the spair tire is and kept the IRS.
You missed the context of the term "redesign". I know what the GSW is.

I, for one, am not willing to accept a can of fix a flat in place of a full sized spare.
 

Mammoth

Active member
Joined
Sep 15, 2012
Location
Menlo Park, CA
TDI
2013 JSW TDI 6MT
5 million Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand products.

Keep in mind that Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Audi, Skoda, and SEAT - and Skoda and SEAT are the budget volume brands below VW and Audi - also used the EA189, and are not Volkswagen Passenger Cars.
Thanks, good point.
 

SageBrush

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
CO
TDI
None
Dude, seriously? It's a software routine in an ECU in a CAR - it's not the space shuttle program.
It might as well be for them, considering the ramifications.

Is a close-up view of BK enough of a bottom line issue for the CEO to concern himself with ? Is a cheat placed on 11m (at least) cars the kind of placement issue your version of a CEO might take an interest in ? Is violation of every country's pollution laws a big enough marketing strategy ?

Ok, ok ... I'll stop. Too much entertainment in one day will make tomorrow bland.
 
Last edited:

immortalmk2

Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Location
United States
TDI
2012 VW Golf TDI Manual w/Tech (His), 2013 VW Golf TDI DSG w/Tech (Hers)
The list of links in the first post should be read first.

Consider the reverse though: say this is all just one great misunderstanding. Don't you think VW would have said so by now ? Why instead fire the CEO and admit at the highest levels to a failure of ethics ? The company is heading for BK, but you think they are just waiting for the right time to display the disgruntled worker ?

addendum: I see now that ChemMan beat me to it. Cross my heart, we are not the same person. As evidence, note that he writes much better than I do.
I'm sorry SageBrush, but those links do not provide any hard evidence or admission by VW of an intentional cheat.

But here's one thing I know for sure. Engineers tend to be much more rational and "rule following" than the average bear. We also tend to be somewhat arrogant about our ability find solutions to hard problems and cheating is never an option. German engineers even more so. A couple of my German relatives could be described as almost "obnoxiously" self confident, and they would never stoop to the level of cheating to solve a difficult problem.

The leadership of VW is by and large engineers so I simply refuse to believe such an intentional cheat would have ever been orchestrated by them or the technical folks that work for them. If the problem of diesel emissions in the USA was a problem that couldn't be solved without cheating, I'm confident that VW would not have sold diesel cars here. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but that's what I still believe.

VW is following the typical crisis management play book. Quickly take responsibility but don't admit fault, make a few hire-profile firings to appease the public, and perhaps pay a fine. Then get down to business solving the real problem, which is often political and not something the general public will ever know about.
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
Is a close-up view of BK enough of a bottom line issue for the CEO to concern himself with ? Is a cheat placed on 11m (at least) cars the kind of placement issue your version of a CEO might take an interest in ? Is violation of every country's pollution laws a big enough marketing strategy ?
Here's my best guess as to what actually might have happened:

VP of Product Engineering: "Sir, we're having trouble getting the new common rail TDIs to meet US EPA standards."

CEO: "Keep working on it till they can."

VP of PE: "Yes sir."

Sometime several months later...

VP of PE: "Good news sir, my senior engineer just informed me we're good to go on the US EPA / TDI issue."

CEO: "Excellent."

In all likelyhood this was a decision made by a lower level exec hoping for a promotion and to play the hero for solving a major problem - not some top-down corporate strategy.
 

psssatman

New member
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2015 VW Passat TDI
Well as soon as California fall off into the ocean CARB will be gone unfortunately that still leaves the EPA. But until then we have to worry about he American car companies getting special treatment.

If you are asking if this is all a conspiracy theory, then no. The issue is smog.
A major player is the California air resources board (CARB.) They used to think that *EVs were the answer and promoted them heavily through compliance credits but in recent years have moved to hydrogen cars. So if you enjoy irony, bask in the fact that EV and diesel lovers both are very annoyed with CARB these days.
Before people veer off into politics and start screaming that CARB should not pick technology winners and losers, I'll agree completely but point out that the CARB behavior is an unintended side-effect of meeting manufacture demand that any proposed regulation be cheap enough and practical (from an industry wide standpoint, anyway.)
 

busdrvr

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Location
SE WI
TDI
09 sportwagen tdi,6spd man. Traded 7/2015 for 14 Allroad.
I'm sorry SageBrush, but those links do not provide any hard evidence or admission by VW of an intentional cheat.

But here's one thing I know for sure. Engineers tend to be much more rational and "rule following" than the average bear. We also tend to be somewhat arrogant about our ability find solutions to hard problems and cheating is never an option. German engineers even more so. A couple of my German relatives could be described as almost "obnoxiously" self confident, and they would never stoop to the level of cheating to solve a difficult problem.

The leadership of VW is by and large engineers so I simply refuse to believe such an intentional cheat would have ever been orchestrated by them or the technical folks that work for them. If the problem of diesel emissions in the USA was a problem that couldn't be solved without cheating, I'm confident that VW would not have sold diesel cars here. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but that's what I still believe.

VW is following the typical crisis management play book. Quickly take responsibility but don't admit fault, make a few hire-profile firings to appease the public, and perhaps pay a fine. Then get down to business solving the real problem, which is often political and not something the general public will ever know about.
If you take the epa's word as gospel, as the press no doubt does, the statement on p4 of the epa letter of violation is clear. Only when the epa told them the 16's were NOT going to be accepted did vw admit that they had designed and installed a defeat device in the vehicles. I am guessing there is subterfuge in there at some level.
 
Last edited:

puntmeister

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Location
Arizona
TDI
2004 Jetta BEW
I'm sorry SageBrush, but those links do not provide any hard evidence or admission by VW of an intentional cheat.

But here's one thing I know for sure. Engineers tend to be much more rational and "rule following" than the average bear. We also tend to be somewhat arrogant about our ability find solutions to hard problems and cheating is never an option. German engineers even more so. A couple of my German relatives could be described as almost "obnoxiously" self confident, and they would never stoop to the level of cheating to solve a difficult problem.

The leadership of VW is by and large engineers so I simply refuse to believe such an intentional cheat would have ever been orchestrated by them or the technical folks that work for them. If the problem of diesel emissions in the USA was a problem that couldn't be solved without cheating, I'm confident that VW would not have sold diesel cars here. I know I'm going out on a limb here, but that's what I still believe.

VW is following the typical crisis management play book. Quickly take responsibility but don't admit fault, make a few hire-profile firings to appease the public, and perhaps pay a fine. Then get down to business solving the real problem, which is often political and not something the general public will ever know about.
You're like the parent whose kid got caught smoking dope.

"No, sorry, my Johnny wouldn't do that - clearly there's been a mistake".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top