Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[Jeta Life]

dealer quoted me $1200 for my timing belt also due as I have 120K, the trusted tdi mechanics list on the forum's sticky notes or wherever will be a cheaper alternative but try to get a recommendation from a forum member before you go to that tdi trusted mechanic

as for this thread, lawyers are crooks, dealers have more overhead thats why they charge more, parking lot attendants, secretaries, parts people, salesmen and mechanics, people employed doing a job not lying or cheating

 

[Random_Vibration]

You guys saying what VW did was "wrong", well, let me ask you this, did any of us get to vote on these emissions standards? It's not unethical or immoral to violate something that doesn't have a right to exist in the first place....

No but the people who made these decisions were voted on. Did you talk to your congressmen and senators and tell them you disagree and they should pass legislation to delay or roll back this regulation? Did you post your concerns to the EPA during the public comments phase of the draft proposal? When legislators are voted into office, you have your say. Writing a letter to your representatives is having your say. By the same token, not voting and writing is opting out of choosing.

Choosing not to going along with a decision because it didn't go your way can be unethical and immoral. Society works because everyone does not get to do whatever they feel like is moral and ethical.

 

[Keith63]

I thought that we were not to discuss political thoughts or views here regarding this possible recall

 

[Random_Vibration]

I thought that we were not to discuss political thoughts or views here regarding this possible recall

Well what I said could be considered as philosophical and not political.

 

[Keith63]

Can anyone give me an answer or opinion on the three (3) questions I have previously posted regarding this issue. Thanks

 

[busdrvr]

Oooh..bad news. After shelling out 3 large for a turbo at 93k we decided it was too much of a risk to drive over 100k. Every day I thought about that dpf lamp and what it would cost. She loved that car. She really loves the 14 Allroad. Good luck all.

 

[75r90rider]

Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks

1. Near impossible to predict at this point. Nobody knows what VW's corrective action is at this early juncture. Basically way too early to tell. We don't even know what any potential software update is specifically, yet.

2. Again, too early to tell. It wouldn't surprise me for VW to try to throw a bone to current TDI owners. But who knows. Probably depends how this whole thing continues to evolve. All speculation at this stage.

3. Doubtful you'd be fined or forced to take your car in, but I don't know. I don't know what, if any, legal obligation you as an end user have to get recall work done, or what repercussions can come down on you for neglecting it. Someone smarter than me can opine on this one.

 

[SageBrush]

Disclaimer: I'm an interested onlooker, not a diesel owner or fan.

I share the confusion of others why VW would engage in this long term fraud. Perhaps a couple of years ago it made sense to someone at VW, but the latest Gen EPA MPG numbers are not so bad that people who like the cars for all the other reasons posted in these forums would shy away from them in significant numbers that could justify the risks involved in getting caught.

The best I can think of is that the cheating was targeted to Europe to pass Euro 5/6, and the US came along for the ride when it was decided to tweak the cheat for the EPA test. That also leaves a lot of unanswered questions but is a little more reasonable because the high fuel prices there make the consumer a lot more sensitive to actual on-road fuel economy. Perhaps the origins of the cheat are in competition vs other diesels ?

A somewhat unrelated possibility is that VW high performance requires high NOx emissions. SCR would seem to discredit that hypothesis.

The repercussions in Europe are impossible to predict, but I'm going to keep my eyes on France. If it turns out that Peugeot has not been cheating as well, VW is in for a rough ride.

 

[Sunnyb]

Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks

1. I don't think anyone has that information yet but generally tighter emissions will lower fuel economy and performance.

2. I doubt it and personally I don't care I'm happy with my car. I think the "outrage meter" has pegged on this one for some people.

3. No

 

[Av8rdanPim]

Move to the head of the Class (Action Lawsuit)

Ok, here's a question.

If I bought the car with the understanding that the mileage was estimated what it is, then the "update" would bring it lower, is that grounds to sue to allow a return/refund? I bought the vehicle with certain parameters in mind. The company would have effectively made fraudulent claims and received my business/money.

Any lawyers out there?

I am with ya on this. Have owned my 2015 Golf TDI for a total of TWO WEEKS...still has that new car smell. But if they recall it and "fix" something they were lying/cheating about and the performance takes a hit below the performance of the Golf I test drove that sold me on the make/model, you can bet I'll be right there with 450,000(ish) other owners who want a piece of VW over diminish performance and lower resale values. But we must first wait until this shakes out to see what happens.

 

[MRO1791]

Isn't there technology out there to test emissions while the car is actually driving down the road?

Yes, but reading the study that started it all here:

http://www.theicct.org/sites/defaul...WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

It took a trunk full of gear and a 2Kw generator and all the piping to go with, and for the SUV, 2 2Kw generators to run the test gear.. so not something an average Joe, or even state inspector is going to do.

 

[nectarguru]

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

In my personal opinion, no. I'm generally an optimist, but IMO when major corporations are involved with any sort of scandalous activity, the customers are considered last. They already have your money, and if you're financing then they'll be receiving more of your money for a long time, much of which will go towards them paying their massive fines. I think the only thing VW is concerned about right now is protecting their own hides.

It'll take a pretty major incentive for them to keep a customer who just purchased a new vehicle happy. I gave them a large chunk of money for my car. If they came to me and said "We'll offer you a direct trade-in for a TSI, and pay you back the difference in what you've already paid us," I might consider it, but that's living in a dream world.

They really have no reason or obligation to help you out in any way, but again this is all my opinion. Sorry for sounding bitter, but I'm reasonably upset about this.

 

[nectarguru]

I am with ya on this. Have owned my 2015 Golf TDI for a total of TWO WEEKS...still has that new car smell. But if they recall it and "fix" something they were lying/cheating about and the performance takes a hit below the performance of the Golf I test drove that sold me on the make/model, you can bet I'll be right there with 450,000(ish) other owners who want a piece of VW over diminish performance and lower resale values. But we must first wait until this shakes out to see what happens.

I hear you! 3 months later and I've still got the smell. Already had to make an insurance claim!

 

[Tom Servo]

Consumer Reports has suspended its "Recommended" status for certain VW TDI models in light of this scandal:

http://consumerist.com/2015/09/18/c...-recommended-status-for-recalled-vw-vehicles/

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[MRO1791]

I don't have time right now to read this whole thread, but I came across this news earlier and laughed out loud, wondering if this might actually get VW more customers. Where I read earlier, under the article for every "shame on you VW" comment, there were more than 10:1 against the EPA. The EPA does what they do without any of our input, (why don't we at least get to vote on acceptable emissions vs fuel economy, imagine that as a concept), and everything they do costs us money, so it's little wonder why so many people are opposed to them.

Good point! While I don't condone them intentionally violating the standards, it is reasonable to question the need for the standards in the first place. Even at 35x the limit (from the study results, read the dang thing) that is still lower NOx by several orders of magnitude from the pre 2006 standards, the dramatic cut in allowable emission is why we have so few TDIs in the US, EU standards are much more reasonable for Diesels, and acknowledge the need for a separate Diesel and Gasoline engine standard for NOx specifically.

 

[durallymax]

The block of the CT13 is a navistar but the fuel system and engine controls are Caterpillar. Both developed the emissions compliance.

The block of the CT13 and Maxxforce is from the German company MAN and is licensed to Navistar. It's based on their d20 engine. The rest of the CT13 is basically the Maxxforce. Neither Navistar nor Cat developed the true emission compliance system that now uses SCR to meet emissions (since the EGR couldn't). The SCR system is from Cummins.

Sent from my SM-N910R4 using Tapatalk

 

[durallymax]

My question for the EPA emissions experts here, just curious.

Are NOx and the other offending emissions measured as a per/mile quantity or as a percent of total exhaust?

It seems to me that by just about any measure our TDI's would release less overall emission (incl. NOx) than most vehicles getting 1/2 the mpg's. Am I wrong?

Grams per mile or kilometer for cars. Bigger stuff is grams per kwh or hp-hr

Sent from my SM-N910R4 using Tapatalk

 

[durallymax]

They are measured in grams per brake horsepower hour. The more BHP*hr you make, the more NOx you can make.

Wrong on both accounts. Passenger cars are measured in grams emitted per mile/kilometer.

Larger engines and/or off road are primarily measured based on grams per bhp-hr.

You cannot make more NOx with more power. The actual amount of NOx emitted is higher with higher power but not in relation to the power produced aka work done.

Sent from my SM-N910R4 using Tapatalk

 

[SageBrush]

Even at 35x the limit (from the study results, read the dang thing) that is still lower NOx by several orders of magnitude from the pre 2006 standards,

Euro 4 standards (circa 2005) for Nox:
Diesel: 250 mg/km
Petrol: 80 mg/km

California Petrol car Nox emission maximums from 1988:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/levprog/cleandoc/ldvtp88.pdf
400 mg/mile (248 mg/km)

For reference:
Current Tier II bin 5 Nox: 40 mg/mile
Average non-compliance of cars tested by WVU: ~ 240 mg/mile
35x non-compliance: 1400 mg/mile
Several orders (three?) above 35x non-compliance: 1,400,000 mg/mile

 

[Av8rdanPim]

2015 Urea Injected Golf TDIs included in emissions "recall?"

Does anyone here know if the latest 2015 Golf TDIs (mine is an "S" model) with the Urea injection system (blue filler tank next to fuel filler neck) is included in this emissions thing? I am reading that VW could have made the tweak on the 2.0L TDIs WITHOUT Urea injection to fool the EPA. But I am hoping (praying is more like it) that mine (two weeks old) might have a different emissions system that could somehow not be part of this recall. Because it would SO rock to have the incredible performance I am enjoying know remain.

I guess what I am asking is if there is any way to know yet which 2015 Golf TDIs are effected. All of the entire model year? List of VINs yet?

 

[Jayg]

With all the problems I had with my POS CR 2012 Jetta that was bought back, I'm so glad to know I don't have that thing anymore. Being at the VW dealer for everything under the sun. egr, dpf , leaks etc all before 20k miles. Glad to know I made the right call not sticking with it.

The way to make a common rail VW reliable is to make it illegal and void the warranty by removing exhaust components and getting a tune. I remember threads used to get deleted here when people asked about DPF deletes and it turns out the STOCK tune is illegal! LOL

God, good luck guys.

 

[Diesl]

From what I read, manufacturers often experience problems to get owners to participate in recalls. Sometimes they have to resort to incentives to get people to bring their cars in: http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2015/08/31/fca-nhtsa/71469852/ I'd assume that the incentive for a recall that costs the owner money in the long run, due to lower fuel efficiency or reduced lifetime of components, would have to be particularly convincing....

 

[Av8rdanPim]

Diesl, yes, it will be hard to convince people to come in and get a "fix" that will diminish MPG and performance, it that ends up being the case. I looked at about 5 cars before buying my TDI Golf two weeks ago, and like about a half million people tonight, I am really sorry I bought the car now if it is in the recall. But being a positive person, maybe they'll tweak the tweak and it will run the same, just spew less emissions. A guy can dream.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

Consumer Reports has suspended its "Recommended" status for certain VW TDI models in light of this scandal:

http://consumerist.com/2015/09/18/c...-recommended-status-for-recalled-vw-vehicles/

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Hey relax! Just today at 3pm I received an email for a $500 VW customer loyalty coupon ** toward the purchase of a new VW vehicle. I'm sure yours is on the way.

** "TDI Clean Diesel" vehicles excluded.

 

[Diesl]

The main point is that they can fine the manufacturer, but they can't force you (the owner) to participate in a recall.
At the end of the day, lower fuel consumption is good for both the owner and the environment.
Whether and how a vehicle manufacturer gamed the emissions testing, to trade off CO2 versus NOx, is between the manufacturer and the EPA. It might trigger a long overdue discussion, and will be interesting to watch from the sidelines, but I don't think we as owners should worry about it.

 

[nectarguru]

The main point is that they can fine the manufacturer, but they can't force you (the owner) to participate in a recall.

If you live somewhere that requires emissions, your registration renewal could be suspended until you obtain the recall. Also, if your car goes into the dealer for any tiny bit of service, the dealer may be required to not allow the car to leave their hands without the recall being performed (against your will), which renders your manufacturer's warranty useless.

 

[n1acguy]

I'm sure there's more to be revealed.
EPA rules allow for some wiggle room.
When the car is first sold it has to comply with emissions that are stricter, but if the dealer addresses a drivability issue, it is allowed to relax emissions somewhat with a reflash.
In other words, after put into service it doesn't have to be as clean as when first manufactured. Note that this isn't intended to allow every car to exceed 'as new' emissions. The idea is to maintain an average. Maybe VW was somehow trying to take advantage of this.
In this case, the claim of 40 times the certified amount seems a little wild.
I haven't seen a test outside of the university making that claim so far.
For all we know, that number was achieved during a regen.
Most of the outrage seems to be about the claim of intentional tightening of emissions when undergoing a test. My guess this was achieved when he OBD port was accessed. So far this is just a claim against VW that I haven't seen an official response to yet.
As far as I know, Germany is pretty green as a nation. I would expect VW to be also.
I'm hoping that it's not just wishful thinking that this isn't as bad as it looks at first sight.

 

[SageBrush]

Are NOx and the other offending emissions measured as a per/mile quantity

yes

It seems to me that by just about any measure our TDI's would release less overall emission (incl. NOx) than most vehicles getting 1/2 the mpg's. Am I wrong?

yes, if Nox is the pollutant you are considering. So far as I know, its production is mostly a function of fuel:air and combustion temperature. Those variables track fuel economy poorly.

 

[rwolff]

I just read about trucking companies buying new chassis and putting old rebuilt engines/drive trains/axles in them to get around emissions.

No. Trucking companies use glider kits (the name for what you're describing) to get an economical, reliable truck. All manufacturers have faced problems with sensors in the emission control systems (a truck is a harsh environment for sensitive electronics), and if a sensor fails the ECM will shut the truck down. I've read that in the first year of ownership, 40% of trucks with 2010 emissions have been "down" due to problems with the emission control systems, with an average downtime of over a month. When you're paying over $2k per month for a truck, and it's sitting at the dealer rather than on the road earning money, that's a recipe for bankruptcy. Since the EPA doesn't care whether or not a truck can do the job it was bought for, so long as it isn't emitting NOx, the industry has found a workaround.

If we have to take our TDI in for service can we refuse any recall/ updates? after all it IS our vehicle. If I have a warranty (I also have service to 30K) i do NOT want them touching emissions on my 2015 Golf.

Not a lawyer, but it's my understanding that if when the work order is written up the customer explicitly refuses permission to perform a particular service, it can be considered vandalism for a mechanic to perform that service.

Still, with some jurisdictions making the recall a condition of registration, it sounds like a good idea to get an ECM from a salvage yard, have the mandatory "nerfing" done on a "throwaway" ECM, and keep your good one in stock condition (unless you get a tune, of course).

 

[NYC-TDI]

With all the problems I had with my POS CR 2012 Jetta that was bought back, I'm so glad to know I don't have that thing anymore. Being at the VW dealer for everything under the sun. egr, dpf , leaks etc all before 20k miles. Glad to know I made the right call not sticking with it.

Didn't have near the the number of problems with mine as you did with yours but I had enough to convince me to get rid of it. I couldn't agree more with your last statement.