Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[ChemMan]

It's just the nature of the beast. Fortunately, DPF regenerations are a very small percentage of overall engine run-time, so the temporarily increased NOx emissions have very little effect on the overall average NOx emissions.

I guess I wasn't clear. It had a significant effect on the emissions while it was occurring but that burst was so high as to affect the overall average.

The route (route #1) was run twice. The first time there was no DPF event and it clocked in at 410 mg/km. The second run there was a DPF event and it clocked in at 810 mg /km.

That is an extra 28,072 grams (400 mg/km * 70.18 km) compared to the run with no DPF event. When you consider the limit is 43 mg/km even one recharge every 650 kms would take the entire NOx budget.

That should not be happening. That can't happen and still have a vehicle that passes emissions.

 

[dgoodhue]

I have a 2011 VW Golf TDI. Its has 52,000 miles on it. I've had all the maintenance done at a dealership. How many times has the software in my car been 'updated?'
Does anyone here know the answer to this?

If you have your receipts it will say on those. I would guess the dealer has a records of all the dealer work done on your car.

 

[SageBrush]

Seems that now Volvo, Hyundai, and Renault won't pass mustard.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-Hyundai-could-all-fail-future-EU-tests.html

This is beginning to look like funny business, if you ask me. Is the underlying goal is to eliminate diesel engines - then move on to gas - so that we all have to have electric vehicles?

If you are asking if this is all a conspiracy theory, then no. The issue is smog.

A major player is the California air resources board (CARB.) They used to think that *EVs were the answer and promoted them heavily through compliance credits but in recent years have moved to hydrogen cars. So if you enjoy irony, bask in the fact that EV and diesel lovers both are very annoyed with CARB these days.

Before people veer off into politics and start screaming that CARB should not pick technology winners and losers, I'll agree completely but point out that the CARB behavior is an unintended side-effect of meeting manufacture demand that any proposed regulation be cheap enough and practical (from an industry wide standpoint, anyway.)

 

[WVU TDI]

Ooof, my user name, haha.

 

[Sooner]

The suit who spooked the EPA-worth knowing

Ultimately, yes, that is what will happen. The goal may not be to eliminate internal combustion directly, but regulations will be tight enough that internal combustion can no longer compete in a cost-effective manner.

Of course, we're talking about several years down the road... by that time we'll probably have autonomous cars, in-road charging, and a whole host of other new technologies at our disposal.

I concur with the goal. Who are these people? I will repost a shocking validated story about a main drafter of the clean air act laws (now in prison for wholesale fraud) and the skills of the EPA in general

www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/the-suit-who-spooked-the-epa/

 

[ChemMan]

Now that is interesting. It seems like a path to compliance verification:
Require direct, uncensored OBDII sensor readings on all vehicles
Verify accuracy with on-road test
Use in conjunction with current dyno testing

ODBII is only reporting what the ECU tells it. So if ECU says NOx is 70mg/mi that is what you will see.

What we really need is open source ECU software. Let people look at the code and they will see what is going on. Right now the ECU is just a magical black box. You have to trust it is doing the right thing. If it isn't then you probably are not going to find out (unless you use your own independent sensors aka WVU).

 

[n1das]

How would anyone here know this? Call your dealer and ask if they've ever flashed your ECU. I highly doubt it though.

The number of times the ECU has been reflashed can be read via OBD-II using VCDS and if you know what to look for. There is a non-resettable counter value that increments every time the ECU gets reflashed via OBD-II. There is another way to do it like how it was originally done at the factory and doesn't increment the counter. This method requires disassembling the ECU and connecting to a port on the circuit board, probably done thru the processor chip's JTAG port. This is a lot more involved than what a dealer would so I would think it would be done via OBD-II and then you could read the counter value using VCDS.

Good luck.

 

[Billion003]

I think gasoline engines should be held to the CO2 standards diesels can achieve.

 

[n1das]

I think gasoline engines should be held to the CO2 standards diesels can achieve.

They already are in the T2B5 limits. The established emissions limits for the particular class of vehicle are technology neutral. Real world NOx emissions is the major issue with the affected TDIs.

 

[Sooner]

I guess I wasn't clear. It had a significant effect on the emissions while it was occurring but that burst was so high as to affect the overall average.

The route (route #1) was run twice. The first time there was no DPF event and it clocked in at 410 mg/km. The second run there was a DPF event and it clocked in at 810 mg /km.

That is an extra 28,072 grams (400 mg/km * 70.18 km) compared to the run with no DPF event. When you consider the limit is 43 mg/km even one recharge every 650 kms would take the entire NOx budget.

That should not be happening. That can't happen and still have a vehicle that passes emissions.

Right, the VW emissions (if accurate) are appauling given the claims and standard. In fact so bad, just what are all those add on systems doing. I hope BMW and Mercedes did a little more engineering to have far lower real world emissions.

I would expect the "test" calibrations are all gamed somewhat and real world results need correlated responsibly by a engineering organization not a regulatory organization.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

This is about compliance. The EPA will want these cars modified or removed from the road. It should be quite clear.

No it isn't "quite clear". The statements from the EPA clearly say that the cars are legal to drive. They were bought by owners in good faith, believing they were in compliance. The penalties will fall on VW. They will be obliged to recall and fix them (and perhaps or not may offer some compensation for any negative impacts), and they will be fined.

We are several months away from knowing what the recall will involve and what action the EPA and VW will take if they are unable to make the cars comply. Until then no need to panic. Drive on, worry not.

 

[bring]

Sorry if this has already been asked - it's a long thread, so easy to miss stuff.

What exactly is the issue with the EA288 engine? If I read the report correctly, the cars tested had EA189 engines.

Thanks

 

[bhtooefr]

The EA288 engines have the cheating code in their ECUs.

VW claims that they're not actually using that code, just that it's there.

 

[n1das]

No it isn't "quite clear". The statements from the EPA clearly say that the cars are legal to drive. They were bought by owners in good faith, believing they were in compliance. The penalties will fall on VW. They will be obliged to recall and fix them (and perhaps or not may offer some compensation for any negative impacts), and they will be fined.
We are several months away from knowing what the recall will involve and what action the EPA and VW will take if they are unable to make the cars comply. Until then no need to panic. Drive on, worry not.

What PlaneCrazy said. Diesel ON.

If you log a lot of miles like I do (55k miles/year) your TDI may be past the federal emissions warranty by the time any official recall comes out.

The sky is not falling.

 

[ChemMan]

Thanks for the excellent posts.What pollutant ?

Carbon Monoxide. Just showing that even the bad behaving Jetta had about half the CO of a Prius.

Am I wrong is thinking that NMOG is a VOC (volatile organic compound) ?
Because if so, then combing them does not make sense from an air pollution standpoint as I understand the generation of smog.

Yes. Smog is created from ground level ozone. Both NOx and NMOG are ozone precursors. It is a good decision to track them as one. It also prevents gaming the system by cutting one over the other and it also gives the manufacturers some flexibility in how to reduce emissions.

 

[SageBrush]

ODBII is only reporting what the ECU tells it. So if ECU says NOx is 70mg/mi that is what you will see.

What we really need is open source ECU software. Let people look at the code and they will see what is going on. Right now the ECU is just a magical black box. You have to trust it is doing the right thing. If it isn't then you probably are not going to find out (unless you use your own independent sensors aka WVU).

I was under the impression that "ECU" is something of a generic term and that every control board is an "ECU" that can be addressed separately.

I agree with the sentiment regarding readable code and have said so before in this thread, but it conflicts with commercial interest. Perhaps the compromise is to make the ECU that reports pollutant open and 3rd party, and let the manufacturers write closed code for other ECUs.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I guess I wasn't clear. It had a significant effect on the emissions while it was occurring but that burst was so high as to affect the overall average.
The route (route #1) was run twice. The first time there was no DPF event and it clocked in at 410 mg/km. The second run there was a DPF event and it clocked in at 810 mg /km.
That is an extra 28,072 grams (400 mg/km * 70.18 km) compared to the run with no DPF event. When you consider the limit is 43 mg/km even one recharge every 650 kms would take the entire NOx budget.
That should not be happening. That can't happen and still have a vehicle that passes emissions.

Okay, I see what you're saying now.

 

[Sooner]

EPA talking point 40x NOx

Still saying it was 35x going uphill is not exactly honest. It was 35x on a rural route which was 50km of combined uphill, downhill, and flat terrain.

Actual NOx emissions from the WVU study regarding the 2012 Jetta
Fleet Limit: 70 mg/mi (43 mg/km)
Dyno Test Results: 35mg/mi (22 mg/km)
Worst Segment: 2408 mg/mi (1505 mg/km)
Best Segment: 982 mg/mi (614 mg/km)
Overall mileage Weighted Average: 1734 mg/mi (1084 mg/km)

Broken out by segments
Route 1 - Highway - 982 mg/mi (614 mg/km) = 14x limit
Route 2 - Urban - 1582 mg/mi (989 mg/km) = 22x limit
Route 3 - Rural - 2408 mg/mi (1505 mg/km) = 35x limit
Route 4 - Heavy Traffic - 2368 mg/mi (1480 mg/km) = 34x limit

Absolutely misleading to say 40x based on one pre-urea car going uphill which is just one component of average driving. No one passes going up hill alone under load. However, the VW exceedence is shockingly high to me based on the clean diesel marketing.

 

[SageBrush]

Yes. Smog is created from ground level ozone. Both NOx and NMOG are ozone precursors. It is a good decision to track them as one. It also prevents gaming the system by cutting one over the other and it also gives the manufacturers some flexibility in how to reduce emissions.

Correct any errors in this layman chemistry please:

NMOG = (sub-set of) VOC
VOC + NOx = Ozone

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I was under the impression that "ECU" is something of a generic term and that every control board is an "ECU" that can be addressed separately.

I agree with the sentiment regarding readable code and have said so before in this thread, but it conflicts with commercial interest. Perhaps the compromise is to make the ECU that reports pollutant open and 3rd party, and let the manufacturers write closed code for other ECUs.

In the case of Volkswagens, ECU is the engine control unit. Other manufacturers, like Ford, have PCMs, or powertrain control modules, that also control other aspects of the vehicle in addition to the engine.

 

[US_TDI?]

I'm sure this has been asked, but is anyone doing real world testing of gas vehicles in the USA or are they only looking at diesels? I realize that no gas cars were caught cheating on this issue but are we holding them to the same standard by doing real world testing on both?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I'm sure this has been asked, but is anyone doing real world testing of gas vehicles in the USA or are they only looking at diesels? I realize that no gas cars were caught cheating on this issue but are we holding them to the same standard by doing real world testing on both?

Real-world testing has been scarce until this study blew the emissions debate wide open. Expect to see a lot more real-world testing going on as a result of this scandal.

 

[dieseldorf]

The news is fast 'n' furious!

WRAP UP 3-

VW rigged tests on 2.8 mln cars in Germany, Berlin says​

Fri, 25 Sep 14:25:00 GMT

* German transport minister says VW manipulations illegal
* Porsche boss Mueller to be named new CEO - source
* Company to fire at least four senior executives-sources


By Andreas Cremer


WOLFSBURG, Germany, Sept 25 (Reuters) - Volkswagen rigged emission tests on about 2.8 million diesel vehicles in Germany, the country's transport minister said on Friday, nearly six times as many as it has admitted to falsifying in the United States.


His comments, pointing to cheating on a bigger scale than previously thought, deepened the crisis at the world's largest automaker as its supervisory board held a crucial meeting.

.....

 

[SageBrush]

I'm sure this has been asked, but is anyone doing real world testing of gas vehicles in the USA or are they only looking at diesels? I realize that no gas cars were caught cheating on this issue but are we holding them to the same standard by doing real world testing on both?

I've forgotten where, but I read yesterday a study that did on-road testing of a group of diesel and gassers. The gassers matched their dyno expectations while the diesels did not.

I expected the turbo gassers to also show discrepancies, but I do not know if any were tested.

 

[1854sailor]

Seems that now Volvo, Hyundai, and Renault won't pass mustard...

You need to ketchup on your spelling…

 

[bring]

It's odd that none of the articles mention the fact that EA288 cars (2015) already have urea treatment built in

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I've forgotten where, but I read yesterday a study that did on-road testing of a group of diesel and gassers. The gassers matched their dyno expectations while the diesels did not.

I expected the turbo gassers to also show discrepancies, but I do not know if any were tested.

Expect to see very large discrepancies in larger displacement turbo gassers like the F150 Ecoboost, which gets certified at relatively light load, but often finds itself operating under heavier loads, such as when towing/hauling. Emissions test designs will be revised and updated to provide more real-world examples of driving, perhaps even including real-world testing on real streets in real traffic.

 

[n1das]

Carbon Monoxide. Just showing that even the bad behaving Jetta had about half the CO of a Prius.
Yes. Smog is created from ground level ozone. Both NOx and NMOG are ozone precursors. It is a good decision to track them as one. It also prevents gaming the system by cutting one over the other and it also gives the manufacturers some flexibility in how to reduce emissions.

I agree with this. The emission profiles of gasoline compared to diesel are so different that it is essentially "pick your poison". Tracking them as one may be a result from lessons learned by EPA and CARB from tracking them separately for so long.

Regarding VOCs, I recall reading somewhere that areas like LA have a major problem with VOCs as one of the smog precursors. A major source of VOCs are from fuel vapors aka evaporative emissions as the escape from the vehicle and during fueling. Notice the bellows on the gasoline pump nozzles...they are there to capture fuel vapors that would otherwise escape to the atmosphere. OTOH, VOCs are essentially a non-issue with diesels and why diesel vehicles don't have an evap emission control system (no sealed tank, no charcoal canister, etc.) because it serves no purpose. The evap system is a gasser thing.

 

[rustycat]

Otay, here's something to cogitate on: EPA mileage ratings. I suspect not everyone here understands these are provided by the manufacturer of the vehicle and not independently arrived at by the EPA. I believe there are only two tracks in the World that fit the specifications for determining the number.
"EPA estimates are based on laboratory tests conducted by manufacturers according to federal regulations. EPA re-tests about 10% of vehicle models to confirm manufacturer's results"
We live in an Age where all Gov. Statistics are lies and there seems to be no exceptions to this.
The only subjective qualifier will be the level of brain washing via public education that the reader of the fudged facts will bring forth to form an uninformed opinion.
And that's all I have to say on that subject, ggg.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

It's odd that none of the articles mention the fact that EA288 cars (2015) already have urea treatment built in

The EA189 Passat also has urea treatment built in. Volkswagen claims that the cheat code is included in the EA288's programming, but that it doesn't use it or that it somehow still complies with emissions standards. We will find out, for sure.