Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[cheoah]

More growing pains for this technology. I think we'll all be eager to learn more as time goes on, lots of speculation and fear for performance. I will be surprised if they both circumvented regs, AND failed to have a remedy in the event they were forced to conform.

I laid a lot on the line upgrading my farm tractors to interim tier 3, and gave up the ability to handle many repairs on farm. More risk. But the Deere technology seems to work well, and the emissions are reduced. I only hope in the end my Passat proves to perform at similar levels, INCLUDING reduced emissions. I don't really care about the occasional enthusiast removing emissions equipment. Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic! But from a fleet standpoint, the standards are worthy of our efforts, and many of us made our purchase based on our support of that idea. Whether the whole set of standards and testing protocol is practical, is another matter. But measuring these emissions is pretty straightforward these days and if the levels really are what's being reported, it's pretty disappointing as a VW customer. Not to everyone, clearly, but first reaction is, booooooo. We'll see.

 

[nectarguru]

Only certain counties in Wi are required for testing, unfortunately you live in one of them I may be wrong but I do not believe diesel is tested
I however just get a renewal notice

Emissions testing in diesels is required for models made after 2006.

 

[MRO1791]

Can someone please explain why VW would install the defeat device in the first place? If the cars are capable of passing EPA tests and advertised MPG are based on EPA tests, then I don't see what would motivate VW to "cheat." Is there a defect in the way TDIs are engineered that the "cheat" is compensating for?

Yes, see my prior post above about the disclosure on my Cummins TDI truck. With the full emissions system in operation, it has issues with clogged DPF, stuck EGR, damaged Turbo, and of course bad MPG as the vehicle keeps going regen and dumping fuel in the exhaust to try to burn the DPF clean and regen the NOx absorber. Some of the trucks had EGR cooler issues, stuck EGR valves, and oil diluted with diesel (from all the regen cycles).

My guess is that VW knew well of these issues and programmed in a way to avoid them, but that is not EPA compliant. When the comply, expect all the problems the post 2007 TDI trucks have had to come to your VW too.. the emissions standards are really over the top in my opinion.

 

[y2kbird]

Is there a chance that VW has some of the emissions / regeneration systems engage at various intervals, and 'test mode' just forces them to cycle on? Otherwise, on a short test runtime, not every system would be engaged.

Or, what if VW designed a 5min regen to be on 5 minutes then cycle off for 5 minutes and repeat. Maybe during 'on' cycles emissions are 40x cleaner than allowed and on 'off' cycles 40x dirtier than allowed. Net would be exactly meeting the standard (but surely still failing the EPA's spirit of the law)

 

[Jeta Life]

Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks

Don't worry too much you have a great car ! Just wait and see what happens, don't be too quick to make a bad move. This will be a chess game for the higher ups.

Enjoy your ride and don't stress too much about it. You have a beautiful car, enjoy it!

Priceless advice I got on this forum is drive more and worry less. I'm still working on that though, I am a worrier too.

Take care

 

[Keith63]

Emission Recall Question (Freaking Out)

Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks

 

[jrnudd89]

Caterpillar got out of supplying highway diesel engines to class 7-8 manufacturers so they could sell trucks for themselves and that is what they do today.

http://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/on-highway-trucks.html

It just seems like they left because sales volumes aren't huge.

The vocational truck to which you refer does not have a Cat engine under the hood.

 

[bmccrea]

2 observations...

I'm surprised Touareg TDI's aren't affected. Perhaps they are, just not tested yet?

I doubt VW is the only manufacturer to have a software algorithm in the ECU allowing it to perform a certain way under certain exact conditions. If the test is ran under certain conditions and the EPA/CARB isn't smart enough to test under regular operating conditions then really its the EPA/CARB with egg on its face here and is taking it out on VW.

Just my 2 cents. Enjoying the conversation here...

 

[VeeDubTDI]

2 observations...

I'm surprised Touareg TDI's aren't affected. Perhaps they are, just not tested yet?

I doubt VW is the only manufacturer to have a software algorithm in the ECU allowing it to perform a certain way under certain exact conditions. If the test is ran under certain conditions and the EPA/CARB isn't smart enough to test under regular operating conditions then really its the EPA/CARB with egg on its face here and is taking it out on VW.

Just my 2 cents. Enjoying the conversation here...

The EPA shouldn't have to throw curve balls to keep people honest.

 

[Random_Vibration]

The vocational truck to which you refer does not have a Cat engine under the hood.

The block of the CT13 is a navistar but the fuel system and engine controls are Caterpillar. Both developed the emissions compliance.

 

[FordGuy100]

Heck, if it drives prices down, I dont mind! Any TDI I own almost instantly becomes off-road use only.

 

[nectarguru]

"We want to assure customers and owners of these models that their automobiles are safe to drive, and we are working to develop a remedy that meets emissions standards and satisfies our loyal and valued customers."

Typical corporate wordage amended many times over by their legal department to ensure the most neutral response to not make any promises. When all is said and done, there will unlikely be a happy resolution to this problem. Your car's performance will go down, undermining the reason you purchased it in the first place, the reliability will also go down, costing you time and money down the road, and you will get nothing in return. "Satisfies our loyal and valued customers" means nothing more than you will get to keep your car. If there is a class action, you and I will get a few bucks out of it that don't amount to much. The dealer won't toss you some magical incentives because they already have your money. VW will likely recover from this in the long run, but you as the owner are screwed.

I as a customer am disappointed because I thought long and hard before deciding to purchase a Mk7, and after doing much research I realized that a newly ordered Golf is the only way to get the car I'm after, largely for fuel economy. If the economy and torque goes down, and the potential for future problems BECAUSE of this "solution" goes up, there is no point in owning this vehicle. A shame, because I'm still a proud TDI owner. I've only owned my car for 3 months, and until this "solution" is implemented, I intend on enjoying it to the fullest.

There's been a lot of back and forth finger pointing at the EPA and VW in this long thread, but remember that at the end of the day you're the one who went out and spend a good chunk of your hard earned money on this vehicle. I'm insulted as a buyer because I was duped.

 

[TDI-DIY]

My question for the EPA emissions experts here, just curious.

Are NOx and the other offending emissions measured as a per/mile quantity or as a percent of total exhaust?

It seems to me that by just about any measure our TDI's would release less overall emission (incl. NOx) than most vehicles getting 1/2 the mpg's. Am I wrong?

 

[Wankel7]

Who here is going to figure out how to spoof these cars to run in full emissions compliance mode?

Get a taste of what is to come with the reflash....

 

[Rockwater]

I trust EPA on this far more than VW. Glad to see they're on the job. If VW can't comply with the law, they have no business selling diesels here in the US. Simple case of greed which deserves a stiff financial flogging.

 

[y2kbird]

Ever since the EPA shut off power to the laser containment system, leading to the escape of all those ghosts, things have gone downhill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vxEimC3HME

 

[Random_Vibration]

My question for the EPA emissions experts here, just curious.

Are NOx and the other offending emissions measured as a per/mile quantity or as a percent of total exhaust?

It seems to me that by just about any measure our TDI's would release less overall emission (incl. NOx) than most vehicles getting 1/2 the mpg's. Am I wrong?

They are measured in grams per brake horsepower hour. The more BHP*hr you make, the more NOx you can make.

 

[NYC-TDI]

It seems a lot of the discussion here is about the reasonableness of the EPA rules and attacks on the agency. This is of course a valid topic of conversation but it misses the point. The point is that VW willingly violated those rules and has admitted to doing so. In short they broke the law. Calling into question the "fairness" of the law as a defense for the violation is no more acceptable in this case than it would be for a drug dealer citing the fact that marijuana is legal in Colorado after he was arrested for dealing the drug in Texas. "That's not fair!" is not a legal defense.

 

[rotarykid]

I trust EPA on this far more than VW. Glad to see they're on the job. If VW can't comply with the law, they have no business selling diesels here in the US. Simple case of greed which deserves a stiff financial flogging.

Your statement would have clout if the current light duty diesel emission laws were actually about making the air we breath cleaner, which they never really were...

Current light duty diesel emissions regs on non-existent then or now in any numbers were about making the air look cleaner on paper while allowing the largest pollution producers continue to be sold for another decade when the current law was passed...

Current regs which are what this entire thing is about do not make any dent in real pollution, they couldn't possibly make any difference since these vehicles were not sold here in any numbers...

!No clean air will ever be gotten from current over-stringent light duty diesel emissions regs as long as they make up less than 1/2 of 1 % of what is sold today in the US!

Anyone who wants law that would actually lead to cleaner air, push for passage of law which requires all gasoline powered offerings be required to reduce the trillions of tons of unregulated or measured today of ultra fine PMs......

This is in reality a non issue to real world pollution for the few copies of these which are on the road today....

 

[Jeta Life]

I trust EPA on this far more than VW. Glad to see they're on the job. If VW can't comply with the law, they have no business selling diesels here in the US. Simple case of greed which deserves a stiff financial flogging.

at least VW is making a product that can benefit people, the EPA wants this lawsuit money off of VW's hard earned dollars for engineers, mechanics, sales people, keeping people employed.

lawsuit money is not my idea of hard earned money, but a lot of people such as lawyers get rich off of other people's property

 

[Keith63]

I am heading to the dealer on Tuesday to have my timing belt changed and I am instructing them not to upgrade anything until I receive the official recall notice from VW of America. After that, I will do all service procedures myself. That way I will keep my same mpg and won't get the fix until I hear on this forum that the fix won't decrease my mpg.

 

[2011tdiproject]

You guys saying what VW did was "wrong", well, let me ask you this, did any of us get to vote on these emissions standards? It's not unethical or immoral to violate something that doesn't have a right to exist in the first place.

I wonder what people would buy if we had a free market, multiple choices of emissions equipment. If you could buy a tdi with full emissions, partial emissions, or no emissions controls at all, and all the effects of emissions on the environment were described in detail. I bet most people would buy the cars with some emissions controls, but not the extreme the EPA currently has set.

I'm going to tell everyone I know about this, and I bet every single person will laugh and cheer VW on. Especially the guys with diesel pickups, they know all about what the EPA did to their newer trucks.

 

[Random_Vibration]

It seems a lot of the discussion here is about the reasonableness of the EPA rules and attacks on the agency. This is of course a valid topic of conversation but it misses the point. The point is that VW willingly violated those rules and has admitted to doing so. In short they broke the law. Calling into question the "fairness" of the law as a defense for the violation is no more acceptable in this case than it would be for a drug dealer citing the fact that marijuana is legal in Colorado after he was arrested for dealing the drug in Texas. "That's not fair!" is not a legal defense.

Agreed. I do sympathize on the difficulties of meeting tough NOx in the US and tough CO and PM standards in the EU. It's an engineering nightmare. On the other hand, I didn't choice the path VW selected. I wasn't let in on the secret before I bought. I probably will have to suffer thru some detuning of the vehicle I thought I knew. I am not terribly happy with either the EPA or VW but VW was the only one who knew the fix was on.

 

[2011tdiproject]

Calling into question the "fairness" of the law as a defense for the violation is no more acceptable in this case than it would be for a drug dealer citing the fact that marijuana is legal in Colorado after he was arrested for dealing the drug in Texas. "That's not fair!" is not a legal defense.

And yet again another person giving all their power away to the government. What is the relevance of it being a "legal defense", when we don't get any say in it, in this supposed democracy? We didn't get to vote on marijuana being federally illegal, just like we don't get a vote on emissions laws.

 

[Jeta Life]

I am heading to the dealer on Tuesday to have my timing belt changed and I am instructing them not to upgrade anything until I receive the official recall notice from VW of America. After that, I will do all service procedures myself. That way I will keep my same mpg and won't get the fix until I hear on this forum that the fix won't decrease my mpg.

make sure you are due for a timing belt change, do a search on the forum for that before you spend all that money, your car is only 3 years old

true you have the right to tell dealer you don't want the update, I doubt it will be a drastic change in mpgs, stay tuned

a lot of great advice here, reading is great here, a lot of cool characters

 

[Keith63]

JETTA LIFE'
My Jetta has almost 110,000. Based on what I have read it is due for the timing belt change?

 

[rotarykid]

And yet again another person giving all their power away to the government. What is the relevance of it being a "legal defense", when we don't get any say in it, in this supposed democracy? We didn't get to vote on marijuana being federally illegal, just like we don't get a vote on emissions laws.

....the first error in your way of thinking is we are a republican democracy, we have never had a democratic democracy form of government.....

And on emissions rules, if they were really about the common good making the air cleaner, not about politics the most heavily polluting of what is sold today would be at the top of the list when it comes to passing stronger regulations....

The vehicles which pollute the heaviest today are trucks & suvs, which exist today in a loophole for emissions and CAFE......A loophole bought by the introduction of, a the cost of the current non-existent then or now light duty diesel autos.....

Current over stringent light duty diesel emissions rules on vehicles which no one has sold here since 1986 do not, will never give us cleaner air......

This enforcement of this violation of law, will not ever make any difference in pollution anywhere in the US....this is today a feel good by some enforcement action, while continuing to allow gasoline powered trucks & suvs their loophole operation.......

 

[Drivbiwire]

JETTA LIFE'
My Jetta has almost 110,000. Based on what I have read it is due for the timing belt change?

Uh, 10,000 miles ago!

Don't forget the water pump and all associated rollers!

 

[oldpoopie]

JETTA LIFE'
My Jetta has almost 110,000. Based on what I have read it is due for the timing belt change?

Yes, but youll be paying way more than nessesary at the dealer. Aurely there are capable independants nearby?

 

[Av8rdanPim]

Emissions fix on 2015 Golf TDI - Performance hit coming?

Just bought my first VW product 2 weeks ago, and the deciding factor was the car's amazing, impressive, exciting performance. Tonight I am totally disgusted about them lying/cheating on emissions system debacle.

My question: Assuming VW will recall and fix the issue, can anyone here tell me what sort of performance hit the 2.0L TDI engine will take in terms of torque, acceleration and average MPG? If it ends up performing like a Prius, it will be $21,000 worth of suck.