Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[SageBrush]

That 40x thing the EPA quotes is sensationalizing and not very good science. Check out the graph that preceeds this discussion which shows you that Car A (oldest TDI in question) was going uphill under high load to achieve that result.

No. Read the report again, or look at the graph in the first post of this thread pulled from it showing **average** emissions for each sub-test by car.

 

[tvmaster]

GM killed people, Toyota killed people, and it's business as usual, no one's in jail and the stock prices are as they were.
To me, buying VW stock right now, is a no-brainer.
But I'd wait until they increase the 36 month warranty to 10 years before buying a new VW. I'm hoping that's what they'll temporarily put into effect to get back market share in the showroom

 

[SageBrush]

Also, it would be VERY hard to convince me that a Prius and its rare earth batteries is more environmentally friendly than a NOx spitting TDI

It is a rare person here who would even consider a Prius regardless of how much proof of how clean they are is available, but that is a poor reason for anyone to write nonsense, let alone a journalist.

There are no rare earth metals in the Prius battery.
There are rare earth metals in the generators and CAT, but they are recycled.
Very detailed life cycle analyses of the car from Toyota are available free for your reading.

 

[transmit]

From Bild:Audi's research and development boss Ulrich Hackenberg, a long-time VW brand executive, and Porsche's engine chief Wolfgang Hatz will be dismissed at the meeting, Bild reported, citing unnamed company sources.

Hackenberg....hmmm....very close to the word "Hacker"...hmmmm

And "Heisenberg"...hmmm, hmmmm!!!

 

[Wankel7]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-that-x3-diesel-s-emission-exceeded-eu-limit

Good grief.

 

[VodkanDiesel]

You know what's funny?

While EPA is attacking TDI's, they completely ignore things like this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MSCYSAMLykc&feature=youtu.be

And there are WAY more of these things on the road than TDI's. Fix this problem first, and then talk to me about TDI's.

 

[rick43065]

Best Summary Yet

very interesting take - this whole story does drip with sensationalism, which is totally typical in these times we dwell in... VW (and now BMW?) got caught trying to pull a fast one - the mainstream media knew they could count on the hysterical majority to run around singing "who's afraid of the big bad Wolf(sburg)?

This is the best summary of the situation yet.

 

[jimbo1mcm]

I should make my wife read all 200+ pages of this thread.
She made me sell my A3 with 384k on it rather than fix it.
I gave it to my daughter and it started blowing white smoke.
Never the less.... I miss blowing black smoke at other obnoxious drivers and rue the day I bought a TDI that doesn't smoke at all.

Great fun with my early Olds GM Diesel. Hit the passing gear and you got more black smoke than you can imagine!!

 

[TDI smile]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-that-x3-diesel-s-emission-exceeded-eu-limit

Good grief.

the circle gets bigger, and the CRUZE Diesel is from OPEL. Now - who gets fired from the German GM daughter?

 

[VeeDubTDI]

You know what's funny?

While EPA is attacking TDI's, they completely ignore things like this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MSCYSAMLykc&feature=youtu.be

And there are WAY more of these things on the road than TDI's. Fix this problem first, and then talk to me about TDI's.

The EPA isn't attacking TDIs.

 

[Chris Tobin]

I am a retired corporate attorney and owner of two VWs with TDI engines, which I really like. I am not at all offended by what the EPA has alleged, and the real facts will eventually emerge.
I do know a lot about class action lawsuits. Law firms which specialize in this type of legal action only need one person who owns one of the affected VWs and will list him/her as the plaintiff, and allege that the potential group of plaintiffs is so large that the suit should be elevated to class action for the sake of judicial efficiency. At this time, it is my understanding that several legal actions have already been commenced, and each will first attempt to knock the others out of the game.
At some point, the winning law firm will obtain a list of all VW owners with affected engines, and will mail them notice of the class action case and that they have the option to opt out. Not opting out means that you will be automatically included as a plaintiff and will supposedly get your share of the award, if any. The law firm will of course get the lion's share of any settlement. These cases never go to trial, being settled along the way. After a settlement is reached, the law firm will give the judge a list of all of its expenses to date, which will come out of the settlement. The amount will be very large, as these firms routinely will charge about $1000 per billable hour for these cases. Also, they do not give a rip about you, but are only in it for the $$$$$.
Thinking about the critical matter of proof of damages, no one on this earth can prove any real damages due to this VW code. We have cars that get higher mpg than the EPA estimate, so we spend less on fuel. No damage here. You also have no legal standing to sue on behalf of the environment or the EPA. It is still raging whether the EPA uses real science or junk science fueled by a political agenda. Using real scientific methods, no one to date has adduced any proof of environmental damage caused by diesel powered cars. So, no damage here either.
What is the almost certain outcome in this case is that VW will negotiate some amount of EPA fines, and will pay a class action settlement, which will not be large enough to pay the expenses of the action. We will all most surely receive some sort of notice from VW to take our cars to the dealer where the computer chip will be reflashed with code that will make your car lower powered, less efficient, and allegedly cleaner running. VW cannot force you to do this to your car, so it will be a voluntary action. The EPA may also mail you a threatening letter that you need to have your car computer reflashed, which you may also refuse to comply with. Most states, like mine, exempt all diesel powered cars from emissions testing.
May the torque continue to be with you,
Speedster

And also with you!!!

On the attorney front, rather than joining a class action suit, VW owners would probably be better off filing a small claims case directly against VW like the woman did against Honda for her Civic Hybrid, wouldn't they???

 

[node_one]

The Mk5s have a good size trunk, a DEF tank could be installed on either side of the rear of the trunk. That is where I installed the Water/Meth tank for my Snow system. VW was lazy and cheap and decided to cheat plain and simple!!!

The trunk is large in the Jetta, not so much in the Golf...

 

[powerdrive]

VW is not going to reimburse consumers. They will flash new code and pay the fine. VW did not willingly transgress the EPA so that you the consumer would have more power or greater fuel mileage, they could care less. What VW cares about is the cost of replacing emmision components under the time period of the emmision warranty. The corrected file will cause more frequent DPF and EGR failures. The increased maintenance cost after the emission warranty expires will be the responsibility of the buyer. Reduced resale value will not be a factor for compensation, just the way it is. Once the cars develop a reputation for requiring frequent expensive maintenance of emmision components in order to get them past inspection the resale value will drop to..... not gonna happen. State inspection stations will be required and informed to look for defeated emmision controls on these models and those with DPF deletes will be forced to reverse the delete. I would be surprised if this does not trigger repercussions in the industry affecting aftermarket tuners that have offered emission control circumventions. At the very least they will be very occupied reversing some tunes, and possibly they will be answering some difficult questions themselves on environmental violations.

 

[bhtooefr]

You know what's funny?

While EPA is attacking TDI's, they completely ignore things like this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MSCYSAMLykc&feature=youtu.be

And there are WAY more of these things on the road than TDI's. Fix this problem first, and then talk to me about TDI's.

They don't ignore that at all: http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/edge-products-llc-settlement

It's just that they don't have the resources needed to go after every single person that does that to their truck, and instead go after the companies supplying emissions delete hardware and software.

 

[jimbo1mcm]

Class action lead lawyer to VW lead lawyer: " Either give us $500 million for the settlement or read and diagram each of the posts on the TDI thread". They will cave.

 

[busdrvr]

VW is not going to reimburse consumers. They will flash new code and pay the fine. VW did not willingly transgress the EPA so that you the consumer would have more power or greater fuel mileage, they could care less. What VW cares about is the cost of replacing emmision components under the time period of the emmision warranty. The corrected file will cause more frequent DPF and EGR failures. The increased maintenance cost after the emission warranty expires will be the responsibility of the buyer. Reduced resale value will not be a factor for compensation, just the way it is. Once the cars develop a reputation for requiring frequent expensive maintenance of emmision components in order to get them past inspection the resale value will drop to..... not gonna happen. State inspection stations will be required and informed to look for defeated emmision controls on these models and those with DPF deletes will be forced to reverse the delete. I would be surprised if this does not trigger repercussions in the industry affecting aftermarket tuners that have offered emission control circumventions. At the very least they will be very occupied reversing some tunes, and possibly they will be answering some difficult questions themselves on environmental violations.

BINGO
And that is why we got rid of ours at just under 100k. The turbo was just the first soldier to take one for the team. I think cr's are throwaways after 100k. Not in any way like the diesels of old. These components are really going to be stressed and fail.. mucho dinero

 

[powerdrive]

I doubt there will be a class action suit. VW will adhere to the emission warranty with the new file, it will cost them somewhat more than they anticipated. If you have problems later it's your problem. They will have fulfilled their implied warranty. I doubt that fuel mileage will take a great hit with the corrected file, it most certainly should meet EPA advertised MPG. There is no case for a class action suit.

 

[immortalmk2]

Has everyone seen the photo of the rolling test rig that was used by the WVU/CAFEE/ICCT team to “catch” VW? This is a sizable piece of kit that undoubtedly puts significant load on an engine as it's driven on its “real world” cycle. Wouldn’t operating a vehicle with such a load increase emissions well beyond that expected under typical uninstrumented driving conditions?

The researchers claim that their testing was representative of “driving conditions pertinent to major United States population centers located in the state of California.” Really? Was the data adjusted to reflect the increased load of the test kit? Were the test cars consistently operated by a single driver without any additional passengers or gear? Did CARB’s subsequent chassis dynamometer testing simulate comparable load conditions?

And what about the increased exhaust back pressure due to the test gear’s visibly extravagant plumbing? As we all know, increased exhaust back pressure will decrease engine efficiency, resulting in greater fuel consumption and emissions. How was this accounted for in the tests?

Something doesn’t smell right here. As ICCT implicates more diesel cars as "gross polluters" using this test rig (the BMW X3 might be the latest), I have started to wonder if their test methodology is sound. I just downloaded the CAFEE final report to see if it answers my questions, but I have 133 pages to work through.

 

[o_a_ravi]

Just checked the craigslist ad listing for my area., and I already see so many 2009+ Golfs, Jettas and Passats on sale ....

Crazy people

 

[SageBrush]

They don't ignore that at all: http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/edge-products-llc-settlement
It's just that they don't have the resources needed to go after every single person that does that to their truck, and instead go after the companies supplying emissions delete hardware and software.

Makes sense, although the customers seem to have this sense of invulnerability that should be shown to be misplaced.

A couple well publicized stories of the EPA grabbing the customer lists of the detune businesses and then a few example cases discussed on this forum would, I think, be quite the deterrent.

 

[DSL HED]

You know what's funny?

While EPA is attacking TDI's, they completely ignore things like this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MSCYSAMLykc&feature=youtu.be

And there are WAY more of these things on the road than TDI's. Fix this problem first, and then talk to me about TDI's.

That looks like my wife's old 2000 Jetta with an 01M and larger injectors. She used to love using it as a smokescreen to make tailgaters go away but now she drives a TSI equipped Jetta so the fun is over (except for the insane power the TSI has).

All of this end of world commentary is craziness. I'm going to continue to drive more and worry less as others have suggested. Once VW and the EPA make up I'm sure VW will offer something to the affected owners.

 

[Mark SF]

I admire the technology that goes into a Prius, it's a good solution to making an efficient powertrain. Unfortunately, there are two reasons I would not get one :

Firstly, the way that they drive. The ride and handling are way off the pace. Toyota has never been able to do a decent chassis compromise, and the Prius is a shining example.

Secondly, the fact that I would be a Prius driver. They are easily the worst driven car on the roads around here. I wish they would make the rear end more attractive, as I spend about 40 minutes a day studying it as I drive, stuck behind one doing 55 mph in the outside lane.

 

[SageBrush]

Has everyone seen the photo of the rolling test rig that was used by the WVU/CAFEE/ICCT team to “catch” VW? This is a sizable piece of kit that undoubtedly puts significant load on an engine as it's driven on its “real world” cycle.

In another ICCT publication I read that the kit weighs 35 -70 kg, depending how old it is.

The authors discuss this question and conclude that it is unlikely to be a big deal. I agree, and was personally more skeptical of only three cars in the study, but there is a large body of confirmatory data now available from many different sources.

 

[TDIRoady]

I doubt there will be a class action suit. VW will adhere to the emission warranty with the new file, it will cost them somewhat more than they anticipated. If you have problems later it's your problem. They will have fulfilled their implied warranty. I doubt that fuel mileage will take a great hit with the corrected file, it most certainly should meet EPA advertised MPG. There is no case for a class action suit.

The only ones that win in a Class Action suit is the lawyers, NOT the consumers!

 

[powerdrive]

The only ones that win in a Class Action suit is the lawyers, NOT the consumers!

Agreed.

 

[rick43065]

Long post alert. Sad situation. These forums are electrifying. That is likely the goal here. Proof of damages got my attention. Disclaimer: I sold my 2013 Passat TDI a while back and was waiting for the 2016 Passat TDI to roll in for my next car. We all feel betrayed-but by how much? I am an engineer (trained at West Virginia University oddly enough) and likely OCD by trade. OK here you go-the U.N. says per capita we are exposed to 100 kg NOX per year. Let us add to that figure the amount VW TDI added for the 500,000 TDI's in question say 20,000 km/year. The EPA standard is .04 g/km driven (read about senior EPA agent John Beale, now in FED prison if you want to know more about that).

Anyhow, the poor little 2009 Jetta TDI going uphill in a headwind no doubt did the 30-40x (1.5 g/km). I trust the real time emission are accurate and car tuned properly. Small sample to base world wide anger on. A rare one case scenario. EPA works on gross averages. So, I am estimating a real average of .5 g/km (alledged VW cheat was 10x in my opinion on average-significant it was). So, if all 500k car drive 20k miles per year you get 10 kg per car-year BUT averaging over out over our population of 320 m we increase the 100.00 kg to 100.0152 kg per year NOX .....That is without me providing a credit for the replacement NOX level had the TDI been unavailable. Folks that is 15 grams per person per year on top of the existing 100,000 grams per person per year. Clean-NOT but deadly like ignition switch failures? Plus much CO2 reduced.

Fix, Fine, Make whole, jail a few but ruin the industry for this impact?

Oh and all diesels will exceed the average going up hill, under load, that is understood and why wholesale fleet averages are the measure. I look forward to more info but I am greatly sadened by what looks like a victory for those wanting to retire the Diesel first then retire all Internal Combustion Engines in time. That will require lots of power plant emissions from something magic I guess.

I will go back to reading posts and lurk since I am no longer directly affected-yet. I wish current owners well in this painful situation.

Own 2012 VW Passat Diesel: Like the 600-800 miles between fill up and phenomenal fuel mileage with POWER. I have driven a Prius it was awful, try driving one on the highway at 70 MPH then need to accelerate, isn't going to happen. The TDI is quite "comfortable" accelerating well beyond the posted speed limits.

Good Summary from Sooner but his math is wrong as he mixes 1.5g/km (metric distance) with miles (imperial distance). " So, I am estimating a real average of .5 g/km (alleged VW cheat was 10x in my opinion on average-significant it was). So, if all 500k car drive 20k miles per year you get 10 kg per car-year"

Nope you get .5g/km * 1.61 miles/kM= 0.805g/mile * 20,000 miles = 16,100 g NOx : This is 16% of the existing 100,000 g of NOx we are exposed. But wait, a typical efficient gasoline engine is about .5g/mi of NOx emissions: So the net result of driving a TDI with the "defeat device" enabled is NET ZERO from a NOx perspective. But "Clean Diesel" has much less CO and other exhaust harmful (and deadly) gasses. This doesn't explain the corporate fraud, and consumer deception, but to expect a clean exhaust when you burn a fossil fuel is just as ridiculous a position. If you want that then buy a fuel cell car.. (oh wait how efficient is it to convert a hydrocarbon fuel then store it as hydrogen. I will save you some time.. buy an diesel or gas engine)

 

[rgoetz]

where's skypup?

I hope I'm not asking an offensive question, and I haven't hung out here for a long time, but for the old-timers I ask, where's skypup when we need him?

 

[TDIPeter]

I just signed up for the Class Action in Canada. I will wait and see how it goes...and goes...and goes....

 

[immortalmk2]

In another ICCT publication I read that the kit weighs 35 -70 kg, depending how old it is.

The authors discuss this question and conclude that it is unlikely to be a big deal. I agree, and was personally more skeptical of only three cars in the study, but there is a large body of confirmatory data now available from many different sources.

Thanks, you saved me some reading. Any mention of the impact of increased exhaust back pressure?

 

[TDIRoady]

Sooting

I'm assuming this issue of more emissions may explain why I had noticed that our garage has some areas of the wall that appear "sooted". While I don't leave the car idling in the garage, I do back it in, especially in the winter for better exit. My wife noticed it more than I did and I didn't think much of it since we have a "clean diesel". I was beginning to wonder if it had something to do with some region cycles that were in process when I parked in the garage...as usual I guess the wives know better!