Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[rpgonzalez]

Dude.... you need to read the court transcripts. I know the wording can be difficult.... and there are no pictures.... the gist of the last hearing is that ALL owners will be offered a buyback, or a fix. Will be their choice.

No second or third gen exception. If you read earlier transcripts, specifically on testimony from Sax, the Gen 2 & 3 cars don't currently have systems that can handle the extra duty that a software reflash would demand.

The systems were built around the cheat.

Read up, and if you need help with the long words let me know. I'm sure I can help


edit: also read up on SCR systems. If you have a basic understanding of how they work, you will know why they can't "fix" the issue with a reflash. The catalyst and DPF are the main reasons why. There ARE some pictures with the articles I've read, so you might be in luck.

The cars being updated in Germany are fairing well, are they not?

 

[jdyno718]

Here's my two cents on this whole situation since I have been a member for a couple of years and haven't said much...

VW is revealing their settlement offers soon and it's probably going to look something like this:

1. First Gen CR140 gets a buy back because putting in a scr system would be too costly and take up too much space. Good luck getting consumers to agree with that and they know that.

2. Buy back will be pre-scandal values. I.e., September 17, 2015 values.

3. Second and Third Gens will get a software update. Sorry those of you who have these cars but that's what my educated guess is.

4. If you settle you will get $5,000 on top of buy back or software update.

5. Bisoned makes me laugh and not in a good way.

I mostly agree,
1st Gen will be bought back

2nd gen will be fixed and get injectors, bigger diesel particulate filter, and software, if it doesn't have ad-blue system it will be added on

3rd Gen will be fixed with software

 

[Philpug]

The cars being updated in Germany are fairing well, are they not?

Think about a judge who say went to a certain college and there was a student accused of a heinous crime that was put in front of him and received an overly lenient sentance. Germany needs VW to financially afloat and employ people, I am sure that they did what had to be done and gave VW a slap on the wrist to get them to pass as long as they pinky sweared not to do it* again.

*It=get caught.

 

[CTDCRD]

What is the fascination with depreciation on these cars? They were sold out of compliance and offered for use by VW. The depreciation is all on VW.

Some folks on this forum sound like VW lawyers or their paralegals. Deep in the tank for VW.

Just give me the value of my purchase and the $5000 and I'm happy. Otherwise, I'm cheated twice.

 

[LogicBomb]

The cars being updated in Germany are fairing well, are they not?

The 2.0 fix was just approved, however EU standards are much higher in their allowance for NOx than the US is. Just because it's fixable there, doesn't mean they're just as easily fixable here.

 

[maybe368]

What is the fascination with depreciation on these cars? They were sold out of compliance and offered for use by VW. The depreciation is all on VW.
Some folks on this forum sound like VW lawyers or their paralegals. Deep in the tank for VW.
Just give me the value of my purchase and the $5000 and I'm happy. Otherwise, I'm cheated twice.

You are not alone. I have been saying that since about the 1st or 2nd day of dieselgate. I was sufficiently flamed for it, but, since then things have softened up a bit around here, believe it or not ...Mark

 

[Dr. D]

I mostly agree,
1st Gen will be bought back

2nd gen will be fixed and get injectors, bigger diesel particulate filter, and software, if it doesn't have ad-blue system it will be added on

3rd Gen will be fixed with software

All gens will have an option for buyback. It's in the transcript.

 

[LogicBomb]

I mostly agree,
1st Gen will be bought back

2nd gen will be fixed and get injectors, bigger diesel particulate filter, and software, if it doesn't have ad-blue system it will be added on

3rd Gen will be fixed with software

Gen 1 are all EA189's without Adblue. While 2009's differ from the 2010-2014 Golfs/Jettas, they don't have an SCR in place to take advantage of the adblue. So it's more than that.

Gen 2's are the EA189s in Passats. All of which have Adblue, but the limit is the size of the SCR. You can dump a gallon a minute of urea into the exhaust but if the surface area within the SCR is too small, you just piss everything beyond the capacity of the SCR out of the exhaust. Have you ever looked at the location of the DPF or the SCR? There isn't a lot of room for expansion without hacking into the firewall, or the under body of the vehicle.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

I have asked before but did not get an answer (like all my posts it was ignored ha)

but is there anyway for us to look up what the value of are cars were from before the scandal? just to give a rough idea?

I bought a back issue of KBB from Amazon for about $10.

 

[romad]

Gen 2's are the EA189s in Passats. All of which have Adblue, but the limit is the size of the SCR. You can dump a gallon a minute of urea into the exhaust but if the surface area within the SCR is too small, you just piss everything beyond the capacity of the SCR out of the exhaust. Have you ever looked at the location of the DPF or the SCR? There isn't a lot of room for expansion without hacking into the firewall, or the under body of the vehicle.

But couldn't the catalyst medium be redesigned to have more surface area within the current outside container? It isn't 1 monolithic block but has passages so redesigning the same size block to have more passages will add more "surface area".

 

[JBell]

But couldn't the catalyst medium be redesigned to have more surface area within the current outside container? It isn't 1 monolithic block but has passages so redesigning the same size block to have more passages will add more "surface area".

I thought the larger issue with Gen 2's is the fact that the urea is not preheated by the engine?

 

[quattroginger]

My county has not had an arrest for moonshine or bootlegging since the 80's
And I thought I would post a picture of myself to show you how close your comment hit to home(and to keep this thread on topic) lol

Captain Spalding? lol

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

I bought a back issue of KBB from Amazon for about $10.

Thanks

 

[GoFaster]

The question come up, what happens with these cars that are bought back, will they resell them here? If yes, what type of title will the cars have?

A junk title.

Maaaaybe some of the later models with lower mileage will be worth enough so that they could be re-sold after having a "fix" applied - if one is approved - if the foreseeable resale value is higher than the cost of the fix plus the future warranty costs.

 

[romad]

I thought the larger issue with Gen 2's is the fact that the urea is not preheated by the engine?

I haven't seen/heard that but there are many comments about the lack of "surface area" for the urea to react with in the Gen 2's SCR system.

 

[Exstereo]

The cars being updated in Germany are fairing well, are they not?

Yes and they all have at least 10's of miles under their belts so we should good!

 

[JSWTDI09]

I haven't seen/heard that but there are many comments about the lack of "surface area" for the urea to react with in the Gen 2's SCR system.

Yeah, there have been a large number of comments about this. Unfortunately, there has been no real knowledge about whether or not this is true. All of the real experts on this are under that gag order. We are all just guessing (still). While the current SCR catalysts may be undersized, it is also possible that they are big enough. We just don't know. Only time will tell but there appears to be very little patience around here. Everybody wants to know the answers today - and that's not going to happen.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[Redgrom]

As one of the lawless modifiers of the DPF/Downpipe in my 2009 JSW I resent the title.
I had to do something to fix the EGR clogging due to the DPF cracking.
The cracking was due to poor design and the "cheat" not being good enough.
Mine was an example of the higher warranty cost (if it had been covered) and the cheat improvement.
Instead of spending the $$$$$ to replace the whole thing I did the unthinkable and had the downpipe installed and a 0.5 tune.
No real increased tuning and had the pipe with cat and resonators installed.
Did I do this to evade the EPA?
No!
I did this because the cost would exceed the limit before the EPA would allow doing something else.
This was the direct product of the VW cheat and poor engineering and outright fraud in presenting the 2009 as an EPA compliant vehicle!.
I resent being tossed into the law breaker category by the EPA, VW, or the righteous of the TDI forum.
Of course I chose the lower cost way to keep my car on the road. Probably there is not a great deal of difference in the pollution between the stock cheated and the modified cheater.
I don't intend to take VW up on a buy back unless it is to my advantage.
The car now has 250,000 miles on it and I plan to drive it well past 300,000 as well as the 2013 JSW my wife drives.
I have no plans to get into another car payment at this time.
Any buyback will have to be good enough to change my mind or I will definitely be a part of the projected 10%.

Have you replaced your fuel pump or installed additional filters? What other large repairs has the car needed if any? Sounds like you got a good one.

 

[mjLyco]

Yay more crimes for VW!... sigh.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/af0b53aedd28488b989de3fb5b99ef74/german-prosecutors-investigating-missing-data-vw-scandal

 

[byundt]

SCR surface area is likely ample

I haven't seen/heard that but there are many comments about the lack of "surface area" for the urea to react with in the Gen 2's SCR system.

I don't know why people keep blaming the lack of surface area in the SCR for VW's inability to offer a fix. Consider the data.

The Gen 2 & 3 SCR system is plenty big enough to pass the emissions testing on a dynamometer. It is therefore big enough to pass the emissions testing if the cheat were removed.

I believe, the problem is with the life of the emissions control equipment rather than the sizing. Remember that you also need increased levels of EGR to pass the test on the dynamometer. I am guessing that the DPF life is shortened by those increased levels of EGR.

That's why VW tried to "improve" their cheat by adding steering wheel movement to the test for whether the car was undergoing emissions testing on a dynamometer, or was actually on the road. They wanted to decrease their warranty expense for failed DPF, and improving the cheat spoke to that very issue.

 

[bring]

Just give me the value of my purchase and the $5000 and I'm happy. Otherwise, I'm cheated twice.

How so?

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

A junk title.
<snip pic>
Maaaaybe some of the later models with lower mileage will be worth enough so that they could be re-sold after having a "fix" applied - if one is approved - if the foreseeable resale value is higher than the cost of the fix plus the future warranty costs.

Would like to hear your ideas on (any possible) future warranty issues on "FIXED" cars.

IMO when (if) you "FIX" it you screw the reliability issue

 

[DSL HED]

I have asked before but did not get an answer (like all my posts it was ignored ha)
but is there anyway for us to look up what the value of are cars were from before the scandal? just to give a rough idea?

This was posted about 2 weeks ago. A guy on the Reddit TDI sub found August 2015 KBB values at his local library and was nice enough to share.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tdi/comments/4l1khb/get_your_kbb_prescandal_prices_here/

I'm hoping for a minimum of a 150% of excellent condition value buyback (like Toyota did with the rusty Tacomas) plus some cash back on top. We'll see what happens in about 12 days.

 

[durundal]

But couldn't the catalyst medium be redesigned to have more surface area within the current outside container? It isn't 1 monolithic block but has passages so redesigning the same size block to have more passages will add more "surface area".

Sure, but increasing the surface area without a larger volume means that you have to make the spacing between adjacent surfaces bigger, which means more constriction and associated pumping losses and back pressure at the exhaust manifold. There may also be manufacturing considerations in trying to close down the cell size, it might already be at a minimum practical value since that would be where you would want to live anyway to not take up more space (and cost for material) than you have to.

 

[thanksimgruven]

Gotta hand it to the Germans, radio controls on the left side of the steering wheel is brilliant!!

My car's performance has been unpredictable ever since an emissions recall in May of 2015.. Dangerously bad with the AC on. Do any remember that recall? I have the invoice, wish I kept the letter. Service manager was like "yup it's just a software re-flash to narrow the scope of a passing smog test.." yeah right,

Another point I found interesting: at the break of diesel-gate when VW admitted to lying, cheating, and defrauding it's customers, there was an article where a GM engineer was interviewed. He said the first thing any car manufacturer does when another manufacturer produces a competitive engine- they buy one, take it apart and try to figure out his it works. GM engineers took apart a TDI and couldn't for the life of them figure out how it ran so clean, therefor couldn't develop one of their own. Cruz is out, VW bad, RIP car diesels.

 

[Nuckaman]

I maybe right, I maybe wrong but....I'm expecting the buyback near purchase price plus cash money. It's not a matter of what is fair to either VW or the owners, nor will the decision be made purely on economics. The final offer will determine if VW when they can begin to close this chapter and move forward. Keep in mind too, there are a slew of lawyers chomping at the bit to jump in if public balks at the offer. They will never make everyone happy, but in order to achieve the 97% acceptance rating that they are looking for, anything short of full-purchase price probably won't do it.

They still need to face the music with Feds and determine the penalties. Satisfying almost all TDI owners will probably help soften the blow.

 

[autdi]

I don't know why people keep blaming the lack of surface area in the SCR for VW's inability to offer a fix. Consider the data.

The Gen 2 & 3 SCR system is plenty big enough to pass the emissions testing on a dynamometer. It is therefore big enough to pass the emissions testing if the cheat were removed.

I believe, the problem is with the life of the emissions control equipment rather than the sizing. Remember that you also need increased levels of EGR to pass the test on the dynamometer. I am guessing that the DPF life is shortened by those increased levels of EGR.

When you get to very lean, nearly complete burn, you have low EGR values, high pressure in the cylinder, low PM, great MPG, and nice performance, low CO2, but NOx way up. This would be acceptable with a sufficiently large SCR, but it's not. The only way to get NOx under the limit with the Gen 2, perhaps Gen 3 installed SCR is high EGR, lots more PM, CO2, and lower MPG. This increased PM directly goes to shorter DPF life.

So, if the problem is attacked from the exhaust valve back, keeping the MPG up and PM down is where owners would prefer it, but that means a much bigger SCR to deal with the NOx. Alternately, an accessible, cleanable DPF renders the point about more PM solved. One of the two has to be fixed. Heavy diesel picked the cleanable DPF, were it a couple clamps to remove, 1 hour to clean, and back on the road, I'd figure that operation once per 40k is not too bad. Not what I bought, but of the hack the car apart to find a SCR vs make a quick swap DPF, I know which I'd prefer.

 

[fan of fanboys]

This was posted about 2 weeks ago. A guy on the Reddit TDI sub found August 2015 KBB values at his local library and was nice enough to share.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tdi/comments/4l1khb/get_your_kbb_prescandal_prices_here/

I'm hoping for a minimum of a 150% of excellent condition value buyback (like Toyota did with the rusty Tacomas) plus some cash back on top. We'll see what happens in about 12 days.

awesome, thanks!!

maybe I missed but not sure what mileage those numbers are based off but dang big difference there and what is on kbb now. kbb excellent on my 2014 tdi based on that is roughly what I owe. so if get that plus a percentage and then $5K cash I would def do the buyback

like most, I hope this all happens quickly as possible!

 

[2015golfwagon]

Why could they not just drill a big hole in the DPF, put a plug in it and pull the plug out every 10K oil change and shove a Vac in the hole to clean out the DPF. Makes sense to me. I wonder if they thought of this?

 

[LogicBomb]

I don't know why people keep blaming the lack of surface area in the SCR for VW's inability to offer a fix. Consider the data.

The Gen 2 & 3 SCR system is plenty big enough to pass the emissions testing on a dynamometer. It is therefore big enough to pass the emissions testing if the cheat were removed.

I believe, the problem is with the life of the emissions control equipment rather than the sizing. Remember that you also need increased levels of EGR to pass the test on the dynamometer. I am guessing that the DPF life is shortened by those increased levels of EGR.

That's why VW tried to "improve" their cheat by adding steering wheel movement to the test for whether the car was undergoing emissions testing on a dynamometer, or was actually on the road. They wanted to decrease their warranty expense for failed DPF, and improving the cheat spoke to that very issue.

At the vehicles current performance level, the SCR is undersized. If they could have just thrown more adblue at it, they would have. You can always degrade engine performance by adding more fuel into the combustion chamber to lower NOx to a point where the SCR can get the vehicle into compliance. But doing so creates more particulate matter for the DPF, degrades fuel economy, and decreases the engines performance.