Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[csteve]

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

actual letter from EPA

 

[DEZLBOY]

VW has admitted to installing the "switch" to pass emissions test, but allow "better - something" in daily driving.

Now, my question is why would VW do this? If VW had not put the switch in, and the cars would drive day to day as they would when testing, what would have been so drastically different for VW to do such a thing?

If mpg would have dropped, do you think that many of potentional buyers would not have bought? If performance dropped, same question. I find it hard to believe that the difference between "test mode" and "day to day" driving would have made any difference to 95% or more of buyers.

So, that leads to me believe (just a guess) that the VW running in "test" mode always 24 day would have suffered some sort of mechanical/sensor failure over and over again. And the specter of people saying that VWs were unreliable and the cost for VW to cover repairs was the issue.

And, shame on VW. Advertising "clean", promoting e-Golf for the environment, and then cheating such that VW drivers were polluting way above allowable specs. That's just plain wrong. And making fools of it's customers.

 

[Marc_TDI]

How will this effect us in WI?
I just moved here recently....is testing done in WI?

 

[oilhammer]

I am far more Volkswagen fan than EPA fan. I say good job. Now even I want a CR TDI!

 

[Drivbiwire]

No publicity is bad publicity... Imagine all the people googling TDI and reading about the 49 MPG+ cars.... Soon VW will be doubling production.

And for all those wanting to sell your cars because of this, Buyers will be lined up around the block!

 

[waspie]

so, as they admitted fault to move the 2016s, does that mean they'll be releasing them from port soon? my ordered 2016 is scheduled for production in early october and I'd like to get it in november as is scheduled. I couldn't care less about the somewhat elevated NOx, I just want my car.

 

[AmericanLocomotive]

Stick a probe in any gasoline engine on the road and test their emissions. We did that and the NOx emissions and other components were so far out of tolerances it was laughable to think they ever passed emissions.

It's done all the time. If the vehicle still has a functioning catalyst and O2 sensors, their NOx emissions are well controlled. Hell Popular Mechanics did it recently just for kicks with a Ford Raptor, and there was less NOx coming out of the tailpipe than the ambient air in the city they were in.

Again the solution will be to increase SCR dosing, which will result in costs to the driver of pennies not dollars per 4000 miles of driving.

Increased SCR dosing won't help the LNT-equipped TDIs.

The costs of putting out a recall are nothing when faced with $BILLIONS$ of cars sitting in port that are held up do to some Government clown creating this mess.

It's not just violations for failing to meet emissions, they have software that actively cheats the emissions tests. They're liable to be fined over $35,000 for every TDI they've sold since '09. Then there's the recall costs, which could be catastrophically high if hard parts need to be changed (might be very possible for LNT equipped vehicles). Then there are going to be lawsuits for lost resale value. God-forbid the reflashed TDI's don't meet their fuel economy targets either, because that's another round of lawsuits right there.

VW only moves about 80k TDIs a year. At most there's a few thousand 2016 TDIs at port right now. The storage costs of a few thousand cars is NOTHING compared to the monumental amount of trouble VW is facing right now.

Up to $18 Billion in just EPA fines + Recall Costs + Lawsuits

 

[dowster]

Press release posted by VW, doesn't say much.

http://media.vw.com/release/1064/

Volkswagen Group of America, Inc., Volkswagen AG and Audi AG received today notice from the US Environmental Protection Agency, US Department of Justice and the California Air Resources Board of an investigation related to certain emissions compliance matters. As environmental protection and sustainability are among Volkswagen's strategic corporate objectives, the company takes this matter very seriously and is cooperating with the investigation.
Volkswagen is committed to fixing this issue as soon as possible. We want to assure customers and owners of these models that their automobiles are safe to drive, and we are working to develop a remedy that meets emissions standards and satisfies our loyal and valued customers. Owners of these vehicles do not need to take any action at this time.

 

[durallymax]

As a member of the Engineering community I am embarrassed by this. The Engineers certainly had to design this software and one would think it raised ethical questions. Are the Emissions rules more relaxed in Europe? How did these people justify the cheating in their mind so that they felt ok with it?
My point is that I just wonder what was on the minds of the Engineers that put this system in place.

Without knowing the entire story its hard to really know. One scenario is they had a target to meet with a date and did what was needed to make the higher ups happy, each person below has less and less "power" so to speak and was more or less probably just doing their job. The risk of being a whistleblower on something as minuscule as this (in the big picture) is hardly worth it to most people I would think.

Yes the Euro regs for NOX are slightly lower. Euro 5 is 0.18, Euro 6 is 0.08. The vehicles cited in this case would have an EPA reg of 0.04. All figures are g/km.

And then in 2010, Caterpillar exited the Highway Truck Business among other things as it was too expensive to comply.

Not to argue details, but they were never in the highway truck business until recently. They quit supplying engines to the on-road sector because of how small the market was getting for them and the cost to continue wasn't worth it. They were an outside supplier, just like Cummins is (and is now the only independent supplier). Cummins on road engine sales are a large part of the companies business, Cat's on road sales were tiny compared to their other industries they serve. Couple that with the competition from all of the "in house" engines (DD/MB, Mack/Volvo, Paccar/DAF, Navistar) and it makes perfect sense that they got out of it.

Cat actually did just enter the on road Heavy Truck business recently though with their own truck that is built by Navistar with a Navistar engine. The CT-13 engine is the Maxxforce 13 POS that has been one of the worst engines ever. Cat had some deal where they sold the on road C15 to Navistar in some sort of capacity. Navistar was supposed to build a big block motor, but couldn't due to wasting all their money trying to meet emissions without SCR. They scrapped the project and started offering the ISX Cummins instead. Evidently Cat doesn't want to offer the Cummins in their truck, so there's rumors they may re-enter the on highway engine segment again.

As Americans, we've set emissions limits on vehicles. Rather than comply, a manufacturer decides to cheat, by making its car seem clean to regulators while knowing that, out on the roads, the cars will be far dirtier. "Screw you, Americans, we found a way to cheat and we don't think you'll do anything about it."

All to chase profit.

I hope government regulators exact a penalty large enough to deter VW and other manufacturers from cheating like this again.

Just terrible.

We? I don't agree with the EPA reg's at all so count me out. I don't think its "screw Americans", maybe they're mounting something bigger against the EPA. It's time someone did. Maybe they wanted to show how good the cars perform with only marginally higher emissions.

Don't forget what the EPA and other "do-gooders" do for profit.

Not saying what VW did was right, but it's not as bad as some make it seem.

Any lawyers out there?

Oh great.....

lets see. Cam issues......hpfp issues.........general lack of concern when the customer has issues......yep I don't feel bad for VW at all.

Have you ever owned any other newer diesel? They all have issues and cost a lot to keep running. They're getting better though.

They are not playing chess here...an admission of guilt is an admission of guilt.

It was certainly a calculated move, not a knee-jerk reaction to just admit guilt in the way they did. They have a plan, what it is I'd love to know but we probably never will, but they certainly have things thought out many moves ahead of this.

At least VW hasn't poisoned American pristine streams & rivers with toxic mine waste.

Thank you. I don't think many on here have to deal with the EPA much in their day to day lives. They are NOT that great of an agency. They keep trying to overreach and thump their chest with the clean air and clean water acts. I'm not saying we need to pollute everything, very far from it. I can't even begin to explain my gripes in the space here.

It would be great if VW's master plan puts the EPA in their place, someone needs to.

I just read about trucking companies buying new chassis and putting old rebuilt engines/drive trains/axles in them to get around emissions.

Glider kits have been around for decades. There is nothing even remotely illegal about them. They were originally built for people who totaled a new truck and still had a good drivetrain. Then people bought them to recycle their rebuilt drivetrain and have a new truck for a lower price and without the hefty 12% Federal Excise Tax. Today they have become very popular due to the high costs of running the new emissions engines, which until recently were very unreliable and had terrible mileage.

Heavy on road diesels emissions are tied to the engine, not the chassis, which is why this is allowed and legal in every way. You do need the title for the donor truck in order to use that engine, you can't just go take one out of a bulldozer or something. It's still not really ruining the environment, most of the engines used are still late model engines with low emissions, they just don't have DPF's or SCR, etc. They get the best fuel economy, they run the most miles with the fewest breakdowns and you are recycling an engine/trans/rear-ends that are otherwise good.

and does anyone even talk about acid rain anymore?

Yes actually, as a farmer I do mention it from time to time. With the cleaner air and lack of acid rain, we actually see a sulfur deficiency in some crops now and have to apply it along with the other nutrients. Not that it's a bad thing, the benefits of cleaner air and less acid rain are probably better overall lol.

40 TIMES the amount of emissions as when it's being tested? That's ridiculous. I wonder how much of a health hazard my car is now.

10 seconds of idling in your garage will kill you.....

Do some research, and figure out what it actually means. Remember news has to be sensationalized. 40 is going to be the maximum they saw, and if you look through the actual study it is nowhere near the normal amount over the regulations they observed. Just using some rough numbers and comparisons, the average amount of NOX emitted by the Jetta is close to what most of the newest cleanest semi's end up emitting per mile or km, and close to what the regulations for the cars were in the 90s. In the grand scheme I don't think its very significant.

Didn't something similar happen to heavy engine manufacturers in 1992 or 1994? I thought I remembered Cat, Cummins, Detroit busted for something similar.

Yes late 90s all but Navistar were involved. Navistar got a lot of brownie points with the EPA. They were early to meet the 04 regs too. Thats partially why they were allowed to take so much time meeting the 2010 regs with their EGR only system that failed. In the meantime they got pissy and ratted out Cummins over their SCR sytem and they even sued the EPA claiming they were playing "favorites". Then they announced they would just pay the $1800 (or whatever it was) fine for selling non compliant motors as it would be cheaper. A stop was put to that and they ended up with an SCR system partially designed by Cummins, the EGR only idea was scrapped, the 15L engine from Cat was scrapped, the CEO left, and multiple class action lawsuits have been filed over the Maxxforce Fiasco.

My question , Is this even possible? I think our friends at ross-tech, and some of the tuners should chime in maybe they already have. How does a car even "know" it's being tested?
Wheel sensors not detecting wheels going around? Maybe?

I'm more inclined to think this is deflection by the EPA away from the orange river and the California fire fiasco.

There's a lot of ECM's that analyze data to adjust for various conditions. I'm not an expert at all, but with the knowledge and technology available today I think it would actually be a lot easier than many would think especially if the EPA test cycle characteristics were known.

I don't get into politics but I don't think this is necessarily what it looks like at face value either. The EPA is not exactly squeeky clean.

This is going to hurt the entire passenger car diesel market in the US. BMW , Mercedes, Chevy, ....
The beginning of the end? I bet VW just did more damage to the diesel image than diesel engines from 70s did.

I highly doubt that, by next week I bet most people (other than TDI owners) will have forgotten about it, heck half probably already have. It's not really that big of news, as long as something else comes along it will be out of the headlines quick. If its a slow news week, it may pop up. If theres a house of cards that keeps falling, then it may get interesting.

My 2013 Beetle convertible has no SCR. The 2014 and 2015 model years both use an SCR. I was under the impression (apparently incorrectly) that the SCR was there to reduce these emissions. It seems that isn't the case. What DOES reduce NOx?

SCR does reduce NOX. The emissions are still being reduced on your's, just not enough. The Passat with SCR that they tested came up at 0.80 g/km at its worst. The limit is 0.04g/km. Is it really that high? Cars are rated in grams per kilometer, other sectors are rated in grams per hp/hr. Let's say you are doing 50kph average to help relate the numbers and since the passat is 140hp I'll just use that number, obviously it's not going to run anywhere neat that power, but its just for the sake of comparison. Here is some spec's based off the EPA regs of that era for various diesel sectors, that show NOx emissions in grams per hour.

If the Passat met the specs it would be 2g.
The non compliant passat would be 40g.
A common size off road engine 42g.
A heavy on-road engine 28g.
A locomotive 770g.

If the Passat were built prior to 2003 the limit would be around 40g in the same scenario as above.


Now this is overly simplistic based off the reg's, and just meant to illustrate somewhat how small the emissions are. There's obviously many more factors to consider, like the overall contribution to the overall NOx emissions (obviously there's less trains than there are passenger cars).

 

[bhtooefr]

Actually, $41,250 per car - $37,500 per car for a car with an invalid Certificate of Conformity, $3750 per defeat device.

 

[MRO1791]

DO NOT GET THE RECALL

When you advance the timing or add excess air you get higher cylinder pressures, more heat, more efficiency, less soot and more NOx. Conversely, when you retard the timing or run richer mixtures you result in lower peak pressures, lower efficiency, more soot and less NOx.
What does this mean to you? Reading the recall, the violation is for excess NOx. This means that any fix performed will result in less efficiency and more regeneration cycles. It will also increase the amount of soot in the high pressure EGR.

Unless you believe that NOx is more important than fuel consumption and CO2 this recall will only hurt you.

Bingo!! On my Dodge 2009 Cummins the buyer has to acknowledge that short drives especially in cold weather and under light engine load will clog the DPF and likely damage the Turbo, and the EGR sticking and sooting up is an known issue on that vehicle.. interestingly, has not been an issue for VW, but I bet we now know WHY!! After the re-program, expect lower performance, lower MPG, and more mechanical issues, especially clogged DPF, turbo failures, and stuck EGR valves (causes some Turbo failures)).
I have heeded that warning, and so far so good on the Dodge, but really to have to have a second car as primary driver (an old Saturn) is really absurd and expensive frankly, and for a passenger car even more so.. I see this doing great harm for TDIs in the US.. sadly.

On another note, seems pattern of VW concealing problems is a trend... the failure to address the HPFP design issue being another example... but to be fair, all the OEMs seem to do this to some degree.. so not surprised.

 

[Revpeach]

I'm wondering if the vagcom cable can turn on and off the "switch?"

 

[13jsw]

How will this effect us in WI?
I just moved here recently....is testing done in WI?

Only certain counties in Wi are required for testing, unfortunately you live in one of them I may be wrong but I do not believe diesel is tested

I however just get a renewal notice

 

[PeteZ06]

What are the chances do you guys think that emission exempt diesel states will become mandatory after this fiasco?

 

[atc98002]

Only certain counties in Wi are required for testing, unfortunately you live in one of them I may be wrong but I do not believe diesel is tested
I however just get a renewal notice

This did not impact state testing. It only impacted the EPA and CARB testing for certification. No one will have any issues with local smog testing.

 

[firedaniel]

figures I just bought a new 2015 Passat TDI I have Been loving the hwy mileage. I have 7k miles on it and its been perfect. I may just change my own oil and transmission fluids and stay away from the dealer.

If VW does pull out of the diesel market in the US the car might actually be worth something if the recall doesnt scrap it lol

DW

 

[av8r]

The biggest disappointment to this whole ordeal between a Multi-National Corporation and the US Government is we as consumers ALWAYS - ALWAYS end up losing.

Corporations are just like us taxpayers - doing everything in our power to "work" around tax laws and excessive regulations.

Government thinks/wants to do everything to maintain power and control.

I'm not going to pass judgement yet....especially in today's immediate internet news cycle where press releases by Corporations and Government ARE ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS 100% factual - NOT

 

[rotarykid]

No one here thinks the current over stringent emissions regs are more less than useless than me today. That is today on non-existent light duty diesel vehicles making up less than 1/2 of 1 % of what is on the road today....

You could remove all emission on these cars and they would still be cleaner in many respects than the still allowed today heaver class used large displacement gasoline powered offerings!

Current in law light duty diesel emissions regs.,stupid emissions regulations which were drawn up and made law under the last president's administration....Regulations that require in some instances for the air coming out to be cleaner than what is taken into the engine!!!

So enough with blaming this on current politics, the current emissions regs on light duty diesels were firmed up becoming law over a decade ago!

So current emission's law/regs on the books today have nothing to do with who is where today!

>>>>>>So enough......

 

[MRO1791]

Remember that EPA is a government agency that doesn't necessarily represent their constituents so much as cater to their buddies: domestic automakers, the oil/gas industry and other folks with big wallets. Punches have been thrown back and forth, this is EPA using the high-ground, "you cheated", argument to gain public backing amongst other gains.

...

Well said, while VW appears to be in big trouble here, how reasonable are the NOx emissions in the first place? The Diesel Pick-ups post 2007 have had all kinds of problems trying to attain the standard, and as a result the big gas guzzling trucks getting half the MPG began come back.

That the EU has a more reasonable NOx standard for Diesels is quite telling to me.

 

[Random_Vibration]

...So enough with blaming this on current politics, the current emissions regs on light duty diesels were firmed up becoming law over a decade ago!

So current emission's law/regs on the books today have nothing to do with who is where today!

>>>>>>So enough......

Don't trouble us with factual, documented information.

 

[Tom Servo]

I may just change my own oil and transmission fluids and stay away from the dealer.

You'll find many here who would advocate for doing that anyway, just because the dealers are so historically bad.

I adamantly disagree with the incredibly strict emissions requirements foisted on diesel passenger cars in the US, but I'm even more disappointed in VW for not finding a better engineering solution than cheating.

Luckily, I don't have one of the affected models and this news wouldn't stop me from acquiring one in the future if necessary. The torque, mileage and quality of "the drive" matter to me a lot more than emissions or compliance.

 

[rotarykid]

This will be my first and last diesel car. I am transitioning to electric. I already lease a Spark EV and I drive it more than I do my diesel. It is more economical for me too.

At 2.56$ per gallon at my filling station, diesel has never been cheaper in SoCal. When I drive my TDI to and from work I average 47 mpg. Doing the math, 1000 miles cost me 54.30$.

By contrast driving my EV averages 5.5 miles per kWh. Every kWh costs me 0.11 cents. Doing the math, driving for 1000 miles costs me $20.

So despite the cheapness of diesel, it is still 34.30$ cheaper to commute to and from work with my EV.

Once the 200 mile Chevy Bolt is available in 2017, I will use my TDI as a downpayment towards the Bolt. If that is not available, then I will get the Chevy Volt. Its 53 mile range is perfect for my to and from work round trip.

But Full EV is my preference. It is economical, its cost of maintenance is 1/3 less than an ICE car, and in states where energy is produced from Natural Gas and renewable like CA it is less polluting. In CA, you will eventually have to get an electric car. so might as well start now.

Those numbers are only because current law allows these vehicles to be road tax cheats! Making the rest of us pay your road tax is neither fair nor does it help with real pollution.....Since California is currently just tail pipe shifting to my part of the west...

Your tax cheating EV may very well give you cleaner air but this air is bought by increasing the pollution in the places where your power is produced.........Not really giving anyone cleaner air......

 

[k1xv]

If Bernie Madoff were an automotive emissions engineer, VW would have hired him.

Not mentioned in the discussion is that some tree huggers actually purchased this car because of its represented very low emissions. As far as they are concerned, this amounts to fraud. While I do not describe myself as a tree hugger, in discussing the car, I often raise how clean its exhaust is. Looks like that is no longer a talking point.

And the IRS paid out a lot of $1300 tax credits based on the high efficiency and clean technology that the car was supposed to represent. It takes chutzpah to get your clean technology qualification for a federal tax credit with trick emissions software.

 

[rotarykid]

40 TIMES the amount of emissions as when it's being tested? That's ridiculous. I wonder how much of a health hazard my car is now.

Worry not, you are and it would be cleaner without all emissions controls than the currently still legal sold everyday large displacement gasoline powered offerings put in puckups & SUVs today....

These large displacement offerings put out mega-tons of ultra fine PMs which are neither measured or regulated today by CARB or the EPA.....

 

[Jeta Life]

The EPA is looking to make lawsuit money against VW.

Maybe because VW's Clean Diesel technology is so innovative that no other carmaker has been able to come up with a successful diesel which helps the environment, not hurts it. Very hypocritical of the EPA.

VW is trying to do its part but is now being sued, wow ! Doesn't surprise me. Lawsuits are nothing new here. It probably is to try and limit VW's growth to favor other automakers.

Why try and defeat diesel as an alternative, probably because the higher forces at work feel threatened by VW's innovations. It is a victory for the Common Rail Technologies, something VW deserves credit for. Our CR TDI's are helping the planet get greener, not other people's pockets.

 

[MRO1791]

I should make clear, when I say "you might have a case," I'm talking about getting damages in a class action lawsuit. I don't think there's likely to be grounds for a buyback. That would require something a lot more egregious than this.

Maybe, Maybe not. I own a Dodge Cummins, 2009. Gov't forced FCA to offer buy backs on many trucks (mine in target audience) over their slow process to replace a couple of ball joints in the steering linkage that very rarely failed in operations, and almost always at low speed. They actually fixed mine on a recall, but the parts were slow to get to dealers, and hence the Gov't forcing them to offer a buyback as part of the settlement.

I would think this is much more egregious than the slow replacement of steering joints that rarely failed.. from an engineering point of view anyway.

 

[Keith63]

Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks

 

[MRO1791]

The emissions standards are so far out there, that 40x nothing is still nothing. The feds have made ridiculously high standards more for advancing an agenda than protecting us. That doesn't exonerate possible cheating, but I really don't give a rat's ass if my car emits 40x what the EPA likes. Many on this forum make modifications which worsen emissions, so whining of that nature rings a little hollow.

BINGO!!! Concur, the NOx for Diesels in the US is insane, not even the EU imposes such tight restrictions. Ours are from CARB (C for California) and specifically LA, where the geography cause smog issues, and of that NOx is a concern.. most everywhere else the NOx is not going to be an issue, an it is way over blown.. frankly LA has much bigger issues than a few TDIs on the road.

 

[Random_Vibration]

...That the EU has a more reasonable NOx standard for Diesels is quite telling to me.

Because the EU is breaking balls over CO and particulate emissions instead. Oh yes, the grass is greener there!

 

[Keith63]

Ok, I have three (3) questions regarding a 2012 Jetta TDI Premium in relation to a possible recall due to this issue:

1) If I am currently getting 53 MPG, what will be my expected MPG on this non-SCR vehicle when they do the software update to correct the isuse?

2) I purchased this vehicle due to great milage as others have, do you beleive that VW will provide trade-in incentives to current TDI owners?

3) If I avoid going to a dealer for service will I receive a notice from the EPA to get the vehicle updated or be fined?

Thanks