Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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r11

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no WE 4 VW PR. Or engineering. Das Oktoberfest postponed.

They have just lost 90% of potential diesel buyers in US.

If they try to exit the US market (as far as diesels are concerned), EPA will go for max penalty. Last I checked not much sympathy for Germans in US. Detroit b partying.

How could they let EPA control the narrative here ?
 

miningman

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Would this be the same EPA that recently flooded that river in Colorado with millions of gallons of mining effluent??
 

Drivbiwire

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My understanding is that NOx formation is related to peak cylinder pressure, not stoichiometry.
EGR reduces available air, Throttling the motor (EGR flapper valve) also reduces air, thus enriching combustion... NOx emissions reductions are directly related to the richer resulting fuel air ratio.

You are correct that combustion pressure raises combustion temperature, this too increases (or decreases) NOx formation respectively.
 

r11

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Völkischer Beobachter top story tomorrow: Der Diezel Untergang.
 

seth1065

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lets be real here , their sales suck in the US, to most people VW has a bad rep already ( deserved or not does not count in the court of the public), not sure about the resolve of regulators, yeah we will have to get some software , it will suck, our MPG will go down, I basically get what the window sticker said I would get, maybe VW will throw us a loyalty coupon , maybe but at the end of the day most of us will ***** maybe but keep our cars, what else are you gonna get ??? I drive about 30,000 miles a year so I do not see what other cars would be able to give my what my JSW gives me. Just my 2 cents



Thanks for enforcing that.

On point, I wonder if VW will able to contain the fallout from this? It's going to hit their sales, hurt their credibility, and harden the resolve of regulators against diesel in general. Bad for all of us. I look forward to learning more about the exploit, and about the real-world effect it had on emissions and performance. But even if it turns out not to be as bad as alleged, the damage to VW is done.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Question... Those FlashZilla type devices... If you have one of those, you can download your ECU software and re-upload it whenever you want, right? Even if you don't bother to get a tune you could still use it to read and write your original software. So you go to the dealer, they install their malware, and you go home and flash the original program again.

Do they work on the newer cars? I've only used one with my 2004.

Just sayin... Sales of those might go through the roof.
 

seth1065

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I think it is a pretty small amount of people who go for a Tune in the real world so I think the tuners will stay below the radar.


Unless the EPA decides to stomp them in the face.


Even the Canadian ones. There is legal precedent to go after Canadians for violating US law even if they did it without setting foot in the USA.

http://www.hazmatmag.com/environmen...s-not-apply-to-canadian-operation/1000030988/

http://www.hazmatmag.com/environmen...ution-agreement-with-teck-cominco/1000053277/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-order-issued-for-pot-activist-emery-1.878376
 

Random_Vibration

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I don't believe this.... Sounds like a good old government shakedown to me, 1st red flag.... Obama administration..... 2nd red flag.....EPA
More along the lines of what they did to Gibson guitars

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-gibson-guitar-for-breaking-indian-law-video/

I give VW the benefit of doubt here, I doubt they programmed cars to cheat as stated its more likely just the way the car is meant to run but VW like Gibson is facing a trashing of their reputation from the EPA that has unlimited resources

How many scams have we seen against car companies? How about the exploding pinto:eek: I have yet to see proof that pintos were more likely to catch fire than any other compact at the time, plus the number of pintos that caught fire in rear collisions were a very small number

How about the exploding Chevy pickups from being hit in the side NBC news had to formally apologize on air for
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtpMzGN9uWc

I believe VW probably did nothing wrong here
Uh, no. These EPA diesel rules predate the current and previous presidents. The legislation took affect in 2007 so it had to be passed in the late 90's. I worked on a fuel system component which was an interim step towards 2007 in 1999 for the USA's largest off road diesel manufacturer.

You can doubt VW gamed the test but VW admitted to it and they are alot closer to the situation than you.
 
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flee

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A lightbulb just went on in my head as to why VAG recently paid a friend in cash and an Audi loaner to keep her Jetta TDI wagon for a week for "testing"...
 

jhinsc

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The vehicles in the WVU test were two VW TDI's and one BMW - one Jetta without SCR and one Passat with SCR and one BMW X5 Diesel. The only vehicle that didn't meet the EPA standard during real world driving was the Jetta without SCR. The Passat with SCR met the EPA standard most of the time during highway driving. The BMW met the EPA standard almost all of the time under nearly every driving environment.
The Jetta without SCR is the only one that exceeded the limits by 10-35 times during certain driving conditions. The Passat was much less than that.
The reason I bring all this up is that the spread between real world FE and EPA fuel economy is actually much larger on the Passat than the Jetta. It would seem that a reflash of the Passat to test specs probably won't have much of a negative effect on emissions and still wouldn't explain the fuel mileage rating discrepancy but the reflash of the non-SCR equipped vehicles might.
It seems reasonable the adjustments needed will have small or minimal affect on mpg's. As long as it still meets EPA mileage ratings, I'll be fine with it. I don't see the end of TDI's for VW's - other auto makers can do diesels just fine so I chose to believe it's a doable, fixable problem. BUT, I will be looking for some kind of warranty extension in case changes reduce longevity, and some compensation if it ends up affecting "EPA" mileage ratings or requires more maitenance. Diesels are not only type of engines under scrutiny - direct injection gas engines are also starting to fall under scrutiny for soot problems. Have you seen the tail pipes of some Genesis/Hyundai vehicles lately. One white Genesis sedan I was following recently looked like it had a pre-emission control diesel by the look of it's tailpipe and bumper.
 

Cool Breeze

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We BMW owners heard a non-governmental study was done measuring the actual emissions of some light duty diesels and only the BMW (X5) passed whereas none of the VW's did. Their results supposedly peeked the curiosity of the EPA.


Welcome to the world of carbon build up due to high utilization of EGR. . BMW owners have been dealing with it since 2011.
 
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NOx is monitored 100% of the time at the catalyst, so there is NO WAY any TDI is out of compliance.
A University doing research on diesel emissions discovered two different VW diesels - a 2012 and a 2013 were grossly out of compliance and emitting way more than the legal amount of emissions.
Like I said, this is a Blackmail on the part of the EPA, VW will issue a recall, which will effectively do nothing to the car or how it performs. The software change will simply eliminate the "TEST" cycle so it cannot be interpreted to be thwarting emissions.
There isn't some "TEST" cycle the system is doing that's "confusing" the EPA. A University found that while on public roads the TDIs emitted substantially more NOx emissions than legally allowed. They notified the EPA. The EPA started investigating and noted that when the vehicle was run through the official EPA emissions test cycle, the vehicle passed emissions, but as soon as it was driven on road, the emissions skyrocketed.

They asked VW to explain the discrepancy, and VW tried claiming mechanical failure, but the EPA was able reproduce the issue on brand new vehicles, and VW had no answer. The EPA then told VW to either explain what's going on, or the 2016 TDIs will not get certification approval because these vehicles just aren't meeting emissions standards.

It's at this point VW admitted to having a software cheat programmed to pass the EPA emissions tests.

This isn't VW "caving" to some kind of blackmail. They know their goose is cooked.You don't admit to cheating federal emissions tests if you're not really guilty just to save face. That's like pointing a gun at yourself and pulling the trigger. The accusations by the EPA are extremely serious, and the consequences VW are facing could be quite dire. The EPA can fine them for every vehicle sold, demand a recall, a buyback, or who knows what else.

All of this, including the EPA's testing results are public record. The study done by the university is also public, and anyone with access to a NOx sensing exhaust sniffer will be able to verify and backup the EPA's claims.

I suspect VW will get fined, and the recall will simply be a reflash. I suspect SCR-equipped TDIs for the most part won't be affected to much - probably just higher DEF consumption. However, I think the NOx-adsorber equipped TDIs (the pre-SCR) models will have their fuel economy impacted significantly. U.S. diesel trucks equipped with NOx adsorbers had absolutely dreadful fuel economy (6.4 Powerstroke, early 6.7 Cummins)
 
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NYC-TDI

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Why does this not surprise me? All it shows is that VW treats the government with the same contempt that it treats its customers. At least they're consistent. As far as I'm concerned the EPA should fine them into bankruptcy.
 

forcedfedbug

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Darn

Man, more people are posting pages before I can finish reading the last post...LOL But really I wonder if this has anything to do with the "Efficient Mode" check box in the ecu. When I saw that in my '13 beetle there was a few posts on it but never could find any info on it and what it changed or the purpose even for the check box. I do know though with the ecu flash of a few months ago I have seen none and I mean NONE difference before or after the flash. I got really close to 42MPG per tank and I still get really close to 42mpg per tank.
As far as all the other posts about electric being cheaper and less polluting only counts until the governments wants to start taxing those miles. You are going to have to start paying sooner or later for the roads you use. My guess is sooner. The government is just waiting until there is enough of them on the roads to justify their time.
Everything else I see as either political or politically incorrect to say on any forum board with or without the threat of being banned. Now to get back to reading the 20-30 new messages that went up while I was typing all this.

Ron

Ron
 

Merlinspop

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I'm scheduled to take my new Passat in to the dealer tomorrow morning for a free 2-week checkup. Will be curious to hear what they have to say.

I'm not a "sky is falling" type, but this is a little disturbing to hear. On the other hand, my first Fuelly report came back at 49.2mpg.
 

MaroonB4

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This is the same EPA that just came out with an opinion that Americans waste 30% of the food we produce, which in turn raises methane gas percentages which contributes to global warm ....I mean climate change. No way they were smart enough to figure this out on their own. Good on VW for sticking it to the EPA.....until they got caught. The govt here apparently knows best and finds it necessary to limit the import of truly fuel efficient vehicles through over regulation and a 'we know what is best for you' mentality. I would love an 80+ mpg vw rabbit! As for my alh and it's emissions systems...f*** the 'man'!
 

OlyTDI

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Wow. What a big issue for so many TDI owners!

Making me really appreciate that my daily is an '04 PD with 129,000 miles!
 

Random_Vibration

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The government is just waiting until there is enough of them on the roads to justify their time. Everything else I see as either political or politically incorrect to say on any forum board with or without the threat of being ban
I find that people see what they wish to see and the reconstruction the facts to match their opinions.
 

Drivbiwire

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We BMW owners heard a non-governmental study was done measuring the actual emissions of some light duty diesels and only the BMW (X5) passed whereas none of the VW's did. Their results supposedly peeked the curiosity of the EPA.


Welcome to the world of carbon build up due to high utilization of EGR. . BMW owners have been dealing with it since 2011.
Not true, VW will simply increase dosing of Urea, instead of 1 gallon every 4000 miles, expect 1 gallon every 3000-3500 miles.

Non issue on SCR engines.
 

DrSmile

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I worry about the town cop pulling me over now when they read this and asking if I had the "fix" completed on my diesel. They won't care if it's an 05, and the state laws regarding smoke emissions are so vague that they will be able to give me a ticket regardless. Diesels are likely to become a target of the eco-crowd too, I can see some of these nuts vandalizing TDIs to keep them off the road...
 

Drivbiwire

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A University doing research on diesel emissions discovered two different VW diesels - a 2012 and a 2013 were grossly out of compliance and emitting way more than the legal amount of emissions.
There isn't some "TEST" cycle the system is doing that's "confusing" the EPA. A University found that while on public roads the TDIs emitted substantially more NOx emissions than legally allowed. They notified the EPA. The EPA started investigating and noted that when the vehicle was run through the official EPA emissions test cycle, the vehicle passed emissions, but as soon as it was driven on road, the emissions skyrocketed.

They asked VW to explain the discrepancy, and VW tried claiming mechanical failure, but the EPA was able reproduce the issue on brand new vehicles, and VW had no answer. The EPA then told VW to either explain what's going on, or the 2016 TDIs will not get certification approval because these vehicles just aren't meeting emissions standards.

It's at this point VW admitted to having a software cheat programmed to pass the EPA emissions tests.

This isn't VW "caving" to some kind of blackmail. They know their goose is cooked.You don't admit to cheating federal emissions tests if you're not really guilty just to save face. That's like pointing a gun at yourself and pulling the trigger. The accusations by the EPA are extremely serious, and the consequences VW are facing could be quite dire. The EPA can fine them for every vehicle sold, demand a recall, a buyback, or who knows what else.

All of this, including the EPA's testing results are public record. The study done by the university is also public, and anyone with access to a NOx sensing exhaust sniffer will be able to verify and backup the EPA's claims.

I suspect VW will get fined, and the recall will simply be a reflash. I suspect SCR-equipped TDIs for the most part won't be affected to much - probably just higher DEF consumption. However, I think the NOx-adsorber equipped TDIs (the pre-SCR) models will have their fuel economy impacted significantly. U.S. diesel trucks equipped with NOx adsorbers had absolutely dreadful fuel economy (6.4 Powerstroke, early 6.7 Cummins)
Stick a probe in any gasoline engine on the road and test their emissions. We did that and the NOx emissions and other components were so far out of tolerances it was laughable to think they ever passed emissions.

Again the solution will be to increase SCR dosing, which will result in costs to the driver of pennies not dollars per 4000 miles of driving.

When you are looking at an entire model year of cars being held up in port due to accusation, You plea the deal and move on to get those cars out of port.

The costs of putting out a recall are nothing when faced with $BILLIONS$ of cars sitting in port that are held up do to some Government clown creating this mess.
 
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seth1065

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Spoken like a true Texan:eek: it seems pretty simple they cheated, they got caught , they pay the fine what ever it is, we lose a mile or two lives goes on.

This is the same EPA that just came out with an opinion that Americans waste 30% of the food we produce, which in turn raises methane gas percentages which contributes to global warm ....I mean climate change. No way they were smart enough to figure this out on their own. Good on VW for sticking it to the EPA.....until they got caught. The govt here apparently knows best and finds it necessary to limit the import of truly fuel efficient vehicles through over regulation and a 'we know what is best for you' mentality. I would love an 80+ mpg vw rabbit! As for my alh and it's emissions systems...f*** the 'man'!
 

Drivbiwire

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I worry about the town cop pulling me over now when they read this and asking if I had the "fix" completed on my diesel. They won't care if it's an 05, and the state laws regarding smoke emissions are so vague that they will be able to give me a ticket regardless. Diesels are likely to become a target of the eco-crowd too, I can see some of these nuts vandalizing TDIs to keep them off the road...
Seriously? not possible!
 

tdi1fun

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I am calling BS on the EPA as well I guarantee that with any vehicle gas or diesel if you test it on a dyno or just sitting there it will be vastly different than testing under real world conditions. there is a huge differences in temperatures of intake air exhaust equipment and so on. bet if you tested a Prius going down the road the emissions would be just as bad.
 

forcedfedbug

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Originally Posted by DrSmile View Post

I worry about the town cop pulling me over now when they read this and asking if I had the "fix" completed on my diesel. They won't care if it's an 05, and the state laws regarding smoke emissions are so vague that they will be able to give me a ticket regardless. Diesels are likely to become a target of the eco-crowd too, I can see some of these nuts vandalizing TDIs to keep them off the road...

Seriously? not possible!
Ha, You have not heard very many stories about New Jersey have you. I believe he has every belief that is possible.

Ron
 

Random_Vibration

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I am calling BS on the EPA as well I guarantee that with any vehicle gas or diesel if you test it on a dyno or just sitting there it will be vastly different than testing under real world conditions. there is a huge differences in temperatures of intake air exhaust equipment and so on. bet if you tested a Prius going down the road the emissions would be just as bad.
Do you call BS on VW admitting to the whole thing too. In end, it doesn't matter what we as individuals believe if the EPA and VW agree that some skullduggery was in play.
 
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