Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[gerry100]

I seriously doubt that this salesperson knows what he/she is talking about.
First, we do not know that the "fix" will negatively impact performance in any way because we do not know what the "fix" is. This is just another guess. It could be true, but we just don't know.
Second, a company cannot design a defeat for the "fix" until they know what the fix will be. Someone is blowing smoke somewhere.
and Third, it will definitely be illegal - there is no doubt about that. However, that hasn't stopped many people before so I doubt that it will now either.

Have Fun!

Don

My guess is that if the cheat didn't impact mileage or performance they wouldn't have done it

 

[JSWTDI09]

My guess is that if the cheat didn't impact mileage or performance they wouldn't have done it

I have had enough of guesses, I will wait for the facts. We all have guesses and many (most?) of them will be wrong. I can wait, I am in no hurry.

Have Fun!

Don

 

[TCBinaflash]

Called my dealership to schedule service today. Girl in service said everyday,all day people have been calling them about buybacks and what's going to happen.

Gawd that must suck.

 

[White Passat]

http://www.motortrend.com/news/volkswagen-golf-diesel-gate-recalls-begin-europe/

 

[jims2321]

I just keep drive along in my TDI, figure one day they will get their collective **** together. Maybe they are figuring out if it's just easier to buy off the US gov't and screw us, or work with the court and lawyers and screw us. Either way, it don't make a difference to me.

 

[AmandaSch]

I have had enough of guesses, I will wait for the facts. We all have guesses and many (most?) of them will be wrong. I can wait, I am in no hurry.

Have Fun!

Don

Rumack: Captain, how soon can you land?
Captain Oveur: I can't tell.
Rumack: You can tell me. I'm a doctor.
Captain Oveur: No. I mean I'm just not sure.
Rumack: Well, can't you take a guess?
Captain Oveur: Well, not for another two hours.
Rumack: You can't take a guess for another two hours?

?

 

[Jeta Life]

I sure hope (though doubtful) this becomes a case-study carefully examined at every business school on at least one outcome of our modern business short-term-thinking baloney.
The more I read about this, the more I keep thinking... why should anyone ever buy a VW again? And, then the reality sets in that the rest are doing it too, VW just got caught.
If people thought like companies... It's kind of like... hmm, if I go into that jewelry store and steal that diamond ring (worth $1M), and they only put me in jail for a month... time to put on the cat-burglar suit!

VWs actions with the cheat are criminal.
Don't forget we all paid at least a $3000 premium for the TDI. The second "big surprise" for me was when my DPF needed replacement. At this point I'm at just about break even.
I've saved about $1500 in diesel over RUG since I have driven 70,000 miles in the 3 1/2 years I have owned when I paid $18K for the Jetta Certified.
with the $1000 goodwill I am almost at break even with the exception of 2 other big repair bills.
The TDI runs awesome and I still enjoy the driving dynamics, it's just that the maintenance issues I have had put me in a pool of party poopers.
I'm okay with VW just giving me $5000 if they let me keep the car in my CARB state and drive it till the wheels fall off. It's been dealer maintained (7 oil changes, DSG flush, fuel filter changes) except for my mechanic who just did the 4 Bilstein HD struts (only charged me $850), new brakes ($250) and 4 new Pirelli P7s ($500).
If VW is allowed to pay a penalty to keep the cars on the road and just pays us each $5000 I wonder if most here would be ok with that, I think not.
Some have had changing needs, hardship, or just don't feel the same about VW. I still like my TDI, just don't love it anymore after seeing some of the nice little crossovers in the market and wondering how VW dragged its feet and only have the lonely Tiguan in its lots. Sure would love a Q5 but it's too darn expensive.
Audi/VW/Porsche shows in this Mark 5 Jetta TDI with its high maintenance costs. The DPF on 2009s was just horrible design so VW admitted it and paid the other half of the $5000 bill to replace my DPF/DOC/NOX/H2S CATS.
Still drives great, but it is sure expensive to maintain and that has been my biggest disappointment, not the NOx scandal which in my opinion is politics.

 

[Baba O'Riley]

Options:
Golf GTI 5dr 6sp
Golf Sportwagon 5sp
Mazda 3 GS hatch 6sp
Decisions, decisions.

175,000km on TDI.
Golf needs both winter and summer tires, plus 2 large services and timing belt coming up.

Buyback, bung, dealer incentive and the grand in Visa cards toward GTI is my first choice.

 

[dslman]

How a Recent Fiat Manufacture Buyback was figured...

For those who want a buyback:

Details of a Recent Chrysler Manufacture Buyback from last year were calculated as follows:
Trade-in Value (NOT Private Party) based only on "GOOD" market value ONLY plus 10%.

Read it here

If VW calculates buyback values similarly, then those who have beat up and/or salvage title TDI's will be jumping for joy, & those who have Mint Condition TDI's excellent condition will be screwed royally.

 

[Perry01]

For those who want a buyback:
Details of a Recent Chrysler Manufacture Buyback from last year were calculated as follows:
Trade-in Value (NOT Private Party) based only on "GOOD" market value ONLY plus 10%.
Read it here
If VW calculates buyback values similarly, then those who have beat up and/or salvage title TDI's will be jumping for joy, & those who have Mint Condition TDI's excellent condition will be screwed royally.

And if Ken Feinberg expects 90% + of TDI owners to accept the offer, it needs to be much better than that. VW gave him the authority to structure the buyback and his track record speaks for itself.
.

 

[jhawklver]

For those who want a buyback:
Details of a Recent Chrysler Manufacture Buyback from last year were calculated as follows:
Trade-in Value (NOT Private Party) based only on "GOOD" market value ONLY plus 10%.
Read it here
If VW calculates buyback values similarly, then those who have beat up and/or salvage title TDI's will be jumping for joy, & those who have Mint Condition TDI's excellent condition will be screwed royally.

It is a bit unclear what the total compensation is there. This quote:

Customers who own the vehicles in the buyback program will receive cash and can use it however they please. Fiat Chrysler's additional incentives -- which were not required by the NHTSA -- are designed to reward customers who decide to stay with the automaker.

Those incentives are on top of a trade-in value that will be calculated based on "good" market value plus 10% for nearly 200,000 Ram pickups and Dodge SUVs that qualify for the program.

states cash on top of the buyback and incentives - but doesn't detail what. Then it talks about gift cards for those who got the fix. So, the cash on top of the buyback plus $1-$2k in incentives to stay with the company may well be a much better offer than your post implies.

Another key component? That buyback was not the result of willful fraud and thus is likely lower than what VW knows it needs to get to.

 

[dslman]

And if Ken Feinberg expects 90% + of TDI owners to accept the offer, it needs to be much better than that. VW gave him the authority to structure the buyback and his track record speaks for itself.
.

I don't want a buyback, but Generation 1 cars may have no other choice, especially in California, there may be no hope as far as a FIX goes for 1st Generation Cars:
Quote:
But it looks like there’s no hope for the roughly 300,000 first generation cars

 

[Ch3No2]

My guess is that if the cheat didn't impact mileage or performance they wouldn't have done it

And emission parts reliability...

 

[dslman]

It is a bit unclear what the total compensation is there. This quote:
Customers who own the vehicles in the buyback program will receive cash and can use it however they please. Fiat Chrysler's additional incentives -- which were not required by the NHTSA -- are designed to reward customers who decide to stay with the automaker.
Those incentives are on top of a trade-in value that will be calculated based on "good" market value plus 10% for nearly 200,000 Ram pickups and Dodge SUVs that qualify for the program.
states cash on top of the buyback and incentives - but doesn't detail what. Then it talks about gift cards for those who got the fix. So, the cash on top of the buyback plus $1-$2k in incentives to stay with the company may well be a much better offer than your post implies.
Another key component? That buyback was not the result of willful fraud and thus is likely lower than what VW knows it needs to get to.

So lets say VW pays every 2.0L Clean Diesel owner $2000 or $5000 each (or whatever) additional Compensation each.
If Fiats Valuation details were used, the owners of pile of crap cars are STILL even better off, getting MORE than their cars are worth, while those with Mint Condition cars are still getting screwed because value is based on Trade-in middle “good condition” rather than actually figuring in ACTUAL REAL CONDITION Values.
I don’t figure in the “Generous Compensation” at all because we’re suppose to get that no matter what, if we sell the cars back or get them fixed, so that’s not figured in my mind as part of the buyback. We get our Generous Compensation either way if we choose to keep the cars with a FIX or sell them back.

 

[thanksimgruven]

^^ yup, that's the only way it would be fair. "Generous Compensation" + opt to fix your car or sell back at pre-scandal value. Across the models years..since they are all equal sinners

My car: 87,000 miles. MINT. bought from ins. co after bad front quarter accident for $2,500. re-built by family member including frame straightening and a part that bolts onto the side of the transmission- not sure what it was.. new parts everywhere, meticulous repair work dealer approved. original owner long-time customer since new.

however VW can swindle EPA/CARB into allowing certain cars to remain on the road, that's VW's benefit not ours.

 

[Sankar]

http://www.motortrend.com/news/volkswagen-golf-diesel-gate-recalls-begin-europe/

I understand that this is for Europe where the standards are different ... but they also say (for the EA 189) that the
“technical solution does not result in any changes to the fuel consumption levels, performance data, or noise emissions of the vehicles concerned.”


??

 

[GoFaster]

..."the technical solution for Europe does not result in any changes" ...

(and I've heard otherwise)

 

[thanksimgruven]

^fix is I think the straight vs. curved air intake pipe or vice versa, which they already tried over here and got shot down. Plus, first sentence.

 

[jhawklver]

So lets say VW pays every 2.0L Clean Diesel owner $2000 or $5000 each (or whatever) additional Compensation each.
If Fiats Valuation details were used, the owners of pile of crap cars are STILL even better off, getting MORE than their cars are worth, while those with Mint Condition cars are still getting screwed because value is based on Trade-in middle “good condition” rather than actually figuring in ACTUAL REAL CONDITION Values.
I don’t figure in the “Generous Compensation” at all because we’re suppose to get that no matter what, if we sell the cars back or get them fixed, so that’s not figured in my mind as part of the buyback. We get our Generous Compensation either way if we choose to keep the cars with a FIX or sell them back.

I have a number of thoughts here:

1. I have a hard time seeing VW trying to use trade in value at all. IMO it will be private part and best condition. Does that mean some get more than their car is worth? Yes.
2. As long as you aren't getting a bad deal, why care someone got what you consider a "good" deal. My car is smack dab in the middle. Low mileage and well-maintained. As long as I'm whole, I don't care if a similar model year high mileage car gets more, or an older car gets xyz... as long as my needs are met. Can't understand why anyone would care as long as you aren't dinged.
3. IMO this is why VW will go the route of 2015 value + similar "generous compensation" + a variable. The variable would be where mileage (if they did it), depreciation curve for newer cars (again I wouldn't care if they got it and I didn't), extended warranty, interest, taxes/licensing, etc. These are all variable across the country and owner by owner. Has to be easy enough for masses to understand and fair enough to get buybacks.
4. I will be interested in overall fix/buyback amount, but my decision will rest solely on MY situation. I'm not going to care what everyohne else is getting UNLESS we are all getting screwed. If some get "better" than me due to age of vehicle, or them not being "dinged" on condition - as long as I'm whole? Who cares?

 

[dslman]

If a buyer recently bought a new 2014 TDI for $31,000 grand out the door after tax, license etc. ... lets say it only has 9000 miles on it, Trade In with GOOD condition, they are only going to offer that person $15,000 to $17,000 range today, so lets add 15% for September 2015 values.
That's only $17,250 to $19,550 so that person will be loosing MORE THAN $11 GRAND just to drive that car only 9000 miles with a buyback.
For WHAT? They did nothing wrong at all.
I don't think even $5000 additional is going to make that person whole.
I would be very VERY surprised if they valued the cars with Private Party Values. VERY Surprised.
SO, Surprise me.
2015 doesn't work in that example IMO because 2015 have SCR and are EASILY Fixed. Also, if no fix is available for 1st Generations as I predict, VW may not ever offer TDI's again for years if at all, if that happens, 2015's are going to go sky high in resale value, I already know of several people owning 1st Generation TDI's who say they will immediately start shopping for a 2015 3rd Generation TDI if it turns out there's no FIX available for their 1st Gen cars.

 

[jjk58]

A few weeks ago I took a 2016 Chevy Volt for a test drive. I found it to have all the torquey goodness as my Jetta TDI. My round trip to and from work is about 50 miles so I would be running 100% electric. If I give up the Jetta the Volt would be high on my list.

Took a 2017 out for a test last night myself. Very happy with the way it handled and that it has range. looking at it as a new additional vehicle not replacing my jsw... Now I just have to decide if the internal dimensions - 4 people (not 5 as they try and state) and cargo space is good enough for me. And can live with no spare tire...

 

[thanksimgruven]

^And if everyone opted for a buyback there really isn't enough money set aside for that plus "generous compensation" (they could find more). IMO they have to at least offer to buyback the 2015's (and account for the wicked hit) even though they have SCR and can easily be fixed - VW was equally guilty in 2015 as in 2009.
So then, maybe a tiered offer of some kind. They've had 7 years to be thinking about it and I have NO REMORSE!
Historically, those who control the means to production win. This company was founded and is still owned by textbook post-war, industrial revolution thoroughbred _________.

"about $8.8 billion to repair or buy back diesel vehicles" means nothing.

 

[jhawklver]

If a buyer recently bought a new 2014 TDI for $31,000 grand out the door after tax, license etc. ... lets say it only has 9000 miles on it, Trade In with GOOD condition, they are only going to offer that person $15,000 to $17,000 range today, so lets add 15% for September 2015 values.
That's only $17,250 to $19,550 so that person will be loosing MORE THAN $11 GRAND just to drive that car only 9000 miles with a buyback.
For WHAT? They did nothing wrong at all.
I don't think even $5000 additional is going to make that person whole.
I would be very VERY surprised if they valued the cars with Private Party Values. VERY Surprised.
SO, Surprise me.
2015 doesn't work in that example IMO because 2015 have SCR and are EASILY Fixed. Also, if no fix is available for 1st Generations as I predict, VW may not ever offer TDI's again for years if at all, if that happens, 2015's are going to go sky high in resale value, I already know of several people owning 1st Generation TDI's who say they will immediately start shopping for a 2015 3rd Generation TDI if it turns out there's no FIX available for their 1st Gen cars.

We're all guessing. I think yours are pessimistic by a lot. If they do what I'm guessing, the difference would be made up in the variable part... but you have no details on what TDI (given he price I can guess though at least somewhat).

 

[jhawklver]

We're all guessing. I think yours are pessimistic by a lot. If they do what I'm guessing, the difference would be made up in the variable part... but you have no details on what TDI (given he price I can guess though at least somewhat).

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Not based on my situation (albiet loosely due to my value around 2015).

The are all guesses. Not based in any facts. Based on rumor, conjecture and grit.

Let's look at it like this. Let's assume care was bought for low $20k area. MSRP was mid $20k area. Low to mid mileage. Probably worth $15k-$18k before scandal.

This onwer owes $5-7k. Guy bought for $23k, car MSRP'd for $25k and worth $15k in 2016. He owes $6k.

Say the buyback is $18k (generous). Plus $5k for VW mea culpa. Minus what is owed. $23k-$6k. This owner has $17k to buy a new car. Will get you into equivalent or a few years newer used cars. Given the right incentives will get you a new VW car. My argument is there is another X factor per owner that may move it some and gets to no brainer category.

The above is one example over many variables. And it starts to show if they offer trade value, "average" condition, lower compensation over the buyback, etc.... they'll start running into real problems getting us to bite. If they try to get us all to accept the exact minimum they'll lose out. So, some might get more than they "deserve" but as long as we all get "whole" why stress on that?

*edit to add* this guy bought an extended warranty, or had major fix costs, etc.. that is the stuff that make me thing there is something variable to all of us in the equation.

 

[peterdaniel]

^^ yup, that's the only way it would be fair. "Generous Compensation" + opt to fix your car or sell back at pre-scandal value. Across the models years..since they are all equal sinners
My car: 87,000 miles. MINT. bought from ins. co after bad front quarter accident for $2,500. re-built by family member including frame straightening and a part that bolts onto the side of the transmission- not sure what it was.. new parts everywhere, meticulous repair work dealer approved. original owner long-time customer since new.
however VW can swindle EPA/CARB into allowing certain cars to remain on the road, that's VW's benefit not ours.

Mint? Are you serious?

 

[2015vwgolfdiesel]

<snip>
2015 doesn't work in that example IMO because 2015 have SCR and are EASILY Fixed. Also, if no fix is available for 1st Generations as I predict, VW may not ever offer TDI's again for years if at all, if that happens, 2015's are going to go sky high in resale value, I already know of several people owning 1st Generation TDI's who say they will immediately start shopping for a 2015 3rd Generation TDI if it turns out there's no FIX available for their 1st Gen cars.

Do you mean UN-FIXED used 2015 ?

... guess there might be another way for owners of new-ish 2015(s) to sell to the public ... that is IF the buy back is cheap-ish

At this point ... all my options are open... with my 2015 low mileage Golf

(1) FIX ... and take the $$$$

(2) Buy back ... if it is a good settlement

(3) Sell to private party ... if it is better than option one or two

 

[thanksimgruven]

Mint? Are you serious?

yea man, it's pretty cherry. For as delicate of an auto as it is - I feel it all goes back together quite well. And I've taken good care of it Tires wear evenly, no pull, smooth ride acceleration and braking.. decent sled minus the tailpipe

 

[Gonehuckin]

And if Ken Feinberg expects 90% + of TDI owners to accept the offer, it needs to be much better than that. VW gave him the authority to structure the buyback and his track record speaks for itself.
.

I can't find any info on specifics of any of the Feinberg settlement disbursements. Do you have a source for this excellent track record? Alsox historically he's been brought in as a third party Pro-Bono. In this case he was hired by VW.

 

[dslman]

Do you mean UN-FIXED used 2015 ?
... guess there might be another way for owners of new-ish 2015(s) to sell to the public ... that is IF the buy back is cheap-ish
At this point ... all my options are open... with my 2015 low mileage Golf
(1) FIX ... and take the $$$$
(2) Buy back ... if it is a good settlement
(3) Sell to private party ... if it is better than option one or two

NO, get it FIXED & collect your Generous Compensation.
What I mean is, the "FIX" on 2nd & 3rd Generation TDI's is going to be very minor, probably nothing more than an ECU Software Update. This is NOTHING!
There will be aftermarket flash updates for sale all over the internet offering flashes back to original probably the very next day after the "FIX" details are released. Or better yet people will get performance tunes & make their cars more powerful with better MPG than they have now even before any "fix".
Sure there are going to be a small group of people who bought 2nd & 3rd Gen TDI's based on the whole green car aspect, they can just take the buyback & be done with it for good. Go buy yourself an electric car with the money, or ride a bicycle if it bothers you that much.
People who own and love the latest model years in best condition low miles 1st Generation TDI's are going take the biggest hit from all this, their options may very well be: Sorry, no fix available & be forced into buyback (at least in California For Sure they will block registration FOR SURE)
OR WORSE, the "FIX" on 1st generation cars may be to cut it full of holes and have MONKEYS hack in an afterthought BS SCR System. That's the WORST THING you could do IMO as resale value on such a vehicle will be in the gutters, & no way is anyone doing that to a car I still own, so it's FORCED BUYBACK option no matter if I like it or not.
TDI owner friends of mine OUTSIDE CALIFORNIA say they're not going to do a damn thing. Well, they may or may be OK, we don't know for sure what may happen, if enough of them take this stance, who knows.... they may block registration of vin numbers for all 1st generation TDI's Nationwide.
Also, they wouldn't get their "Generous Compensation", GENEROUS COMPENSATION is there so owners will either get their cars fixed, or sell them back to get them off the road.
In any event, 2nd & 3rd Gen TDI's have lots to gain (FREE $$$) & little to loose, it's owners of the best condition low miles 1st Generation TDI's that will loose the biggest IMO.
Owners of HIGH MILE 1st Generation Beaters make out like bandits too.

 

[pkhoury]

There's a difference between CR TDIs and older vehicles. The older vehicles were compliant with emissions regulations AT THE TIME THEY WERE ORIGINALLY SOLD, and are "grandfathered".

Well either way, I still doubt registration will be withheld in non-CARB states. Like everyone says, worry less, drive more.